Cure Light Wounds and holding the charge


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

I am fighting an undead creature, say a skeleton. I cast CLW and miss the touch attack therefore I am holding the charge. On the skeletons turn, it attacks me successfully so I now have damage. However, I am still holding the charge, as I did not actively touch anything with the spell hand (either unintentionally or intentionally). Now, if I want to try and attack the skeleton again, it is a standard action. Yes?

^this is all standard stuff.

But,

Primary Question) What kind of action is it to touch myself with the held charge on the following round?

"Touching one friend is a standard action" but it's MY hand...
Am I considered a friend and its therefore a standard (obvious just friends hand sex joke here)?
Would this be like a Paladin's Lay on Hands in which touching ones self is a Swift action?
Or would it be a free action since the casting/activating action has already been made?

I have read through several of the other holding a touch spell threads and none of them that I saw address this specific situation, though there are many. If I missed the appropriate thread, please link me.


I do not know that there is a rules as written answer to this question. I would rule that using a held touch of on a friendly target is the same as a paladin's lay on hands, a standard with no attack on a friendly target, a swift on yourself.


I think you are still delivering a touch spell, and the whether the target is an enemy, ally, or yourself doesn't really matter (although you can touch more then one ally with spells that allow multiple targets).

So, standard action, no matter what the target.


Not a standard action— an attack. You can make one attack as a standard action, or you can use one of your iterative attacks to perform a melee touch attack with a held charge. You can also charge with a melee touch to deliver a spell, if your target has moved away.


The combat rules say:

Combat wrote:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

I would say touching yourself to discharge a touch spell is either free or swift, depending on GM. Standard seems excessive to me. Making a touch attack against yourself is right out. That would assume that you could fail to touch yourself. What would THAT critical fumble look like?


I would say since the action is not listed, it is "not an action".

Quote:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

D'aww, it's just a light wound.

Shadow Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
D'aww, it's just a light wound.

I know it's adorable the Society Initiate wants to survive the encounter... What a n00b


<3


Not seeing anything on the touch spells that I could really apply to this situation.

What I see is:

rules wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

You can:

Auto-touch yourself
Touch yourself as a free action in the same round
Touch yourself as a ? action in a different round <- This is the confusion/problem

I'd personally model it after the Paladin Lay on Hands, and let you do it as a swift. At the very minimum, you can definitely do it as a standard action. But if you're getting pummeled by a skeleton, it's better that you just destroy it now rather than heal, because it's almost certainly going to take another swing at you if it's not dead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You're such a cute light wound, aren't you little guy.

Of course I'll hold you!

Dwiddle woundy-poo.


You're not a Paladin, that's not a lay on hands and it's a spell.

Standard action. There may be a system in place for another class with another ability but neither apply.

Cute or not.


Cavall wrote:

You're not a Paladin, that's not a lay on hands and it's a spell.

Standard action. There may be a system in place for another class with another ability but neither apply.

Cute or not.

You're no fun. :(

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You're such a cute light wound, aren't you little guy.

Of course I'll hold you!

Dwiddle woundy-poo.

Cavall wrote:
Cute or not.

I don't think I've ever been happier about an autocorrect mistake

Shadow Lodge

Dallium wrote:

The combat rules say:

Combat wrote:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

I agree that this statement in the rules is why a standard seems like overkill.


I still think it qualifies as "not an action", since there is no action listed for touching yourself.


Melkiador wrote:
I still think it qualifies as "not an action", since there is no action listed for touching yourself.

Hmmn, you count as your own ally.

Do you also count as your own friend?


i208 wrote:
Dallium wrote:

The combat rules say:

Combat wrote:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
I agree that this statement in the rules is why a standard seems like overkill.

That's a pretty stupid rule in the first place, but I don't think it applies to your own body. "Sorry, one of your toes touched one of your other toes by accident, so you cast that Harm spell on yourself."


Byakko wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I still think it qualifies as "not an action", since there is no action listed for touching yourself.

Hmmn, you count as your own ally.

Do you also count as your own friend?

Are we going to RAW or RAI this? I need to know how to apply this to my schizophrenic insanity character.

Grand Lodge

You don't get to do stuff for free unless you're specifically told you get to do it for free. It's a standard action.


By RAW, nothing explicitly covers this situation. There are similar cases that can be considered when making the decision as a DM, and they could all be considered to be valid in their own way. All we can give you is a list of ways to handle it and reasons that those ways make sense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Not a standard action— an attack. You can make one attack as a standard action, or you can use one of your iterative attacks to perform a melee touch attack with a held charge. You can also charge with a melee touch to deliver a spell, if your target has moved away.

Standard action, attack, either way you call it.. You can touch yourself with the carried spell, still means that you only have move action left in the round.


12 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This really is FAQ worthy, if one hasn't already been started in some other thread.

What is the action for touching yourself with a held charge?

Potential Options: Standard,Swift,Free or "Not an action".


By RAW:

If you count as your own friend you can touch yourself as a standard action.

If you can make touch attacks on yourself (which I think would make auto-hit) you can do it in place of an attack.

I don't think the argument "it's a non-action because it's not listed" is any stronger than "if not otherwise stated, everything is a standard action" or "if it's not listed as an action you can't do it at all".

Letting people do it as a free action seems like a bad gameplay precedent. A combat cleric could walk around holding the charge on a Heal and get it for free whenever he wanted.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Because you are considered your own ally, I think the standard action to touch an ally would be the most applicable rule. However, I would be inclined to be lenient.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Downie wrote:
A combat cleric could walk around holding the charge on a Heal and get it for free whenever he wanted.

He wouldn't be able to do much of anything other than attack though. If he casts another spell, the heal fizzles. So yeah, a cleric could burn a spell he might need before combat even begins, but if he ends up not needing it, then he is out of luck and wasted his resources.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i hate rule threads about touching yourself...


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If you cast the spell in the previous round (generally a standard action for most touch spells), then you can attack with it in following rounds as an attack action or full attack action. What's more, you don't have to declare whether it is an attack action or a full attack action until after your first attack with the charge. Therefore, if you hit, you can still take your move action. However, if you miss, you still have the charge and have the option of continuing to strike with the held charge with your iterative attacks (until you run out of attacks or discharge the spell).

The above is clearly stated in the RAW and is pretty much indisputable.

Touching yourself with an already held charge, on the other hand, isn't well covered in the rules (at all). Best to hit the FAQ button on the post above mine, or to ask your GM. Personally, I'd like to think it's NOT another standard action. The standard action was already spent to cast the spell.


Melkiador wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
A combat cleric could walk around holding the charge on a Heal and get it for free whenever he wanted.
He wouldn't be able to do much of anything other than attack though. If he casts another spell, the heal fizzles. So yeah, a cleric could burn a spell he might need before combat even begins, but if he ends up not needing it, then he is out of luck and wasted his resources.

Well, I did specify combat cleric. In a situation where you're expecting battle, you can make yourself a target and then cure yourself instantly. You can also use it on an ally or an enemy undead, so it's unlikely to go to waste unless you have an urgent to cast something else.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

If you cast the spell in the previous round (generally a standard action for most touch spells), then you can attack with it in following rounds as an attack action or full attack action. What's more, you don't have to declare whether it is an attack action or a full attack action until after your first attack with the charge. Therefore, if you hit, you can still take your move action. However, if you miss, you still have the charge and have the option of continuing to strike with the held charge with your iterative attacks (until you run out of attacks or discharge the spell).

The above is clearly stated in the RAW and is pretty much indisputable.

technically, it's stated in a FAQ so it's not really RAW.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Personally, I'd like to think it's NOT another standard action. The standard action was already spent to cast the spell.
But that's the case whoever you use it on. For some reason you can cast Cute Lickle Wounds, walk twenty feet, and touch an enemy as a free action, but if you wait a round, you have to spend a second standard action to touch them.

i noticed the thread title but wat


Bandw2 wrote:
technically, it's stated in a FAQ so it's not really RAW.

FAQ is generally considered to be RAW. It is still a Rule as Written. It's just written in the FAQ as opposed to in a book.


Bandw2 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Personally, I'd like to think it's NOT another standard action. The standard action was already spent to cast the spell.
But that's the case whoever you use it on. For some reason you can cast Cute Lickle Wounds, walk twenty feet, and touch an enemy as a free action, but if you wait a round, you have to spend a second standard action to touch them.
i noticed the thread title but wat

Going to assume he is writing that on a phone and it's his auto correct. Happens to me a lot on my phone, but I usually catch it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
technically, it's stated in a FAQ so it's not really RAW.
FAQ is generally considered to be RAW. It is still a Rule as Written. It's just written in the FAQ as opposed to in a book.

i don't consider FAQs rules at all, simply clarifications. so this is probably understandable.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I recall the rules on touch spells and held charges being in the book, not the FAQ.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
I recall the rules on touch spells and held charges being in the book, not the FAQ.

choosing when to full attack and when to standard attack is a FAQ i believe.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bandw2 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I recall the rules on touch spells and held charges being in the book, not the FAQ.
choosing when to full attack and when to standard attack is a FAQ i believe.
Core Rulebook, Combat chapter, Actions in Combat, Full-Round Actions, Full Attack wrote:
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

weird, could have sworn. oh well, no worse for wear.


There's nothing in RAW making this different than touching an enemy or ally so PFS or anywhere that is strict RAW little to no RAI it would have to be attack action (or one itterative in a full attack). Since you are your ally you don't have to roll vs yourself.
All the contrary opinions on RAW I've read seem to fall into the 'rules don't say I cant' file.
That being said if you're not PFS and your GM makes you use an attack I'd say that falls under the 'is it fun?' Rule
If I were the GM I would make it require the use of an attack if I'm running a game with min/max players who know what they're doing and want a real challenging combat but any other game I'd rule swift or free (or not an action)


I hit Melkiador's FAQ but my personal take is that it should be a swift action at minimum, not a free or non-action. I think of it as requiring at least some effort to "push" the magic around. It instantly zaps to another person touched like a spark, but for self-application, since it's already inside you, it should take at least some time and effort to apply it.

Oh and to be fair, the second standard action in the normal economy of using a held charge is for managing to get past the defenses of someone else who is either armored or trying to dodge. I don't think that should be held against its application to yourself or an ally. An ally could touch you on their turn to trigger the charge, or an enemy could trigger it by using a natural or unarmed attack on you as an AoO, so it's not set in stone that it always requires a standard action.


There's an issue in the original scenario that no one seems to have mentioned. The spell was cast to deal damage. Unless you've got some weird stuff going on, discharging the spell against yourself won't do anything. CLW to harm doesn't affect living beings. If your some sort of necromancer that heals from ILW, you'd take damage. Not sure who might benefit from a CLW to harm.


Quote:
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

It's not like channeling. The spell is cast the same no matter what. The difference in being healed or damaged isn't determined until you are touched. If you were to try to heal a friendly vampire not realizing he was undead, he would still take damage, despite your ignorance.


Once you're holding the charge of a touch spell, it's an attack action regardless of target or spell (unless the specific spell says differently, which cure light wounds doesn't). Ravingdork already posted the appropriate rule.


Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.
It's not like channeling. The spell is cast the same no matter what. The difference in being healed or damaged isn't determined until you are touched. If you were to try to heal a friendly vampire not realizing he was undead, he would still take damage, despite your ignorance.

I never realized they were different. Thanks.

Grand Lodge

I'm with Ravingdork that if you already paid for it with a standard and missed with your free touch attack it seems crazy for it to count as another standard next round.

Except:

Playing Devils Advocate/Rules Lawyer - What would be the limitation from casting Cure X Wounds, attempting the built in free touch (but missing), then deciding to heal yourself instead (swift or free) all in the same round? By calling it a swift or free action seems to leave open this possibility; much to my chagrin I think it should be a standard action... even though I dislike it.


It's a free action to switch a weapon from hand to hand so I don't see why you couldn't touch yourself for free.

Liberty's Edge

It is a held spell, you can touch yourself or another person as a standard action, or make a full attack against normal AC (not touch) and use the first of the iterative attacks to hit yourself. As you are touching yourself the hit is automatic, but you still consume an attack.

You need to use the first attack as the spell discharge if you touch something before attacking.
Some FAQ seems to assume that the held charge is stored in a specific limb, so if you use that assumption you can use the worst attack if you are attacking with a weapon and holding the charge in another limb.

@the first Magrim. Unless you are a magus or another class with spellstrike, switching your weapon from a hand to another will discharge the spell.
And: 5 years necro. Not a record.


There is no specific rule on discharging a held touch spell on oneself. This means it defaults to the more general rule on discharging a held touch spell, namely as a Standard Action.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Cure Light Wounds and holding the charge All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.