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A friend and I were recently discussing Paladins, and he mentioned to me his extreme dislike of Paladins of Ragathiel. He recounted several tales of people who used the supposed tenants of the Empyreal lord of Vengeance as an excuse for players to use Paladin powers to enact “murder-hobo” behaviors. He stated, “Vengeance is NOT a Lawful Good act.” I love a good paradox so I gave it some thought. What would a Lawful Good Paladin of Vengeance actually be like? Well, the Lawful Good part is a great place to start. Lawful… there would have to be a code involved. Without a doubt. A very strict and rigid one I think. And Good, with a capital G. This isn’t just a vague idea. We arent talking about ends justifying means here. We are talking about True Good. Ragathiel is also carries Chivalry and Duty in his portfolio. Good, Chivalry, Duty, put these together and you come up with terms like service, selflessness, devotion, protection, bravery, honesty, justice. The story of Ragathiel also brings us an interesting bit of information about his struggle against the anger in his heart (a gift, perhaps, from his father Dis) and how its mastery is central to his being. So lets see here; we need a code of conduct that allows Vengeance while upholding the ideals of selflessness, protection of the weak, honesty, and justice. I imagine something like this.
1. A life for a life. One death does not justify a hundred acts of Vengeance. The path of the sword is one of balance, and every act of Vengeance may beget another. A paladin of Ragathiel seeks to balance the scales, not fill them to overflowing.
2. Torture is not Vengeance. There is more than enough suffering in the world. You shall not add to it in Ragathiels name. A clean death can be an act of just Vengeance, but a torturous one is almost always an act of evil.
3. No Vengeance but Ragathiel's. Once a Paladin of Ragathiel has agreed to take vengeance for someone, the matter is finished. The wronged party must move on with their life as soon as the Paladin agrees to enact the Vengeance. They are not to witness the deed itself. They are not to seek further Vengeance against the friends or family of the target.
4. The Silence of the Grave. The matter is never to be spoken of again. You are never to speak of the Vengeance you request with anyone. Ever. You may only make a silent sacrifice to Ragathiel one a year in remembrance. Otherwise you are to act as if your loved one died a natural death. Mourn them, but do so with no anger.
5. No Vengeance for yourself. The paladin may never entreat himself for Vengeance. He takes Vengeance for others, at their request, and only if they are worthy and willing to follow the rules set out for them.
6. Do not suffer a Demon to Live. Demons are Anathema. All demons are assumed to be worthy of Vengeance. The paladin is called to destroy Demon-kind wherever they find them, or spend their life attempting to do as much damage as possible. This is not an requirement to suicide recklessly. It will likely be that a Paladin may do the most damage by raising an army, or training to become powerful enough to slay the beast.
I imagine my paladin as a grizzled old war-dog. He has seen pain and death meted out by the ton. Long ago he had any fire burned out of him. He sits and listens as people entreat him to enact his god’s Vengeance for them. He asks pointed questions, gauges responses, he judges without heat or anger those who have had their lives torn apart. Most are unworthy; not because they are bad, or because their stories are not terrible, but because they are unwilling to release their hatred and put their Vengeance wholly into the hands of Ragathiel. Occasionally, he finds a case that is right for him, where his actions may serve to heal a person in need, and not just end a life that is deserving of such. On these days he takes up his blade and ends a life so that another may begin again. He walks the way of the sword, knowing that in time he will meet his end that way, and that he will deserve it a thousand times over. Until that day he is the Sin Eater. He is the hand of Vengeance. He is a Paladin of Ragathiel, and you had better pray that you do not deserve his attention.
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Seriously nicely done.
I like it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Hey! I earned a complement from F. Wesley Schneider! Yay!!!!!
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I like it a lot.
some constructive criticism;
You are showing a code of conduct for a paladin. Numbers 3 and 4 are not really meant for him, they are more for those who seek him out. The concepts need to be there, the wording is just a little off. Maybe 2 separate codes, one for the worshipers (those seeking Ragathiel's Vengeance) and one for the Paladin that references the other (along the lines of "Counsel those seeking your vengeance on the Rules").
Again, nice job, my OCD just kicks in at weird times.
Well, I don't play PFS at all, but as I understand it, the rules governing PFS are mostly concerned with actual game mechanics. What I wrote here is mostly concerned with motivation and other character type stuff. In PFS this might change the way you might act, or react in given situations, but in no way would it change or challenge the actual rules governing PFS. It should be totally PFS legal is what I am saying.
It should primarily effect just how you act. What you say and do. It should be fun to play, if PFS gives you much opportunity to actually role play.
Well PFS only ebing concerned about mechanis is actually untrue.
Paladins of Ragathiel are notorious there, especially if they also have the oath of vengeance.
Pretty often this ends in some disruptive behavior and being only charge + smite.
Personaly i´m fed up with Paladin players by now because of bad implementations of gameplay.
What those codes really need is incentives for more cooperation and how to roleplay that without letting out the lawful stupid overlord attitude, that so many players show and then back up with "uh but my PC is gonna fall, do you want that?" whining.
For those reasons, i would love to see that deity banned from PFS play.
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First off, Ragathiel is pretty dang cool. Half celestial half devil offspring of a major player that crawled his way out of the pit to work for a billion years to earn his redemption and the respect of the hosts of heaven to finally becoming their leader in war.
Secondly, banning him solves absolutely nothing. Paladins of Iomedae, Abaddar, and Torag are 100% just as "disruptive". The problem is, and I can say this fairly as I don't have any paladins at all, is that a lot of people seem to think that the in world organization should be all character's primary focus, that because the organization is Neutral that that also means that either everyone else should Neutral too or that somehow Neutral is favored, and most importantly that Cooperation is a one way street, (in other words everyone else needs to cooperate with me).
I do have a Warpriest and a Cleric of Ragathiel, and I really can't think of a single time, as a player or a DM that I have seen Ragathiel as a patron deity cause a single problem, (outside of cases where every good aligned character had a problem), but I do recall more than a few involving Iomedae. We had a player who, we suspect was also using metagame knowledge literally threaten to attack the party if we didn't side with the individual she wanted in the Stolen Heir as we where in game trying to lay out the facts as we knew them.
It seems more like an issue of play styles than mechanics or patron deities. A Sorcerer of Nethys that tries to burn everything for fun, 'cause he's crazy and stuff, or the Alchemist that sees cooperation as everyone else making sure they get out of his bomb's way, or the staunch Grand Lodges who insist everyone else do what <they think> is best for the Society. Personally, it's that last group in my opinion that's the most disruptive.
As far as Ragathiel though, the only real issue comes from the Chronicles of the Righteous:
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel's name. It is not enough for the sacrifice to have an evil heart or evil intentions; the sacrifice must have committed evil or unlawful deeds. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against spells and effects cast by evil creatures.
I think we can all agree that this needs to errata'd out of existence. It doesn't actually fit with anything else about Ragathiel, needs to be an HOUR LONG ritual DONE DAILY, and for the SPECIFIC PURPOSE of doing it.
In comparison to other LG Empyreal Lords, they have to mark themselves with a signet ring and hot wax, spend an hour, um, um pleasuring themselves, plant a seed, practice punching on a training dummy, and here is the kicker. . . Damerrick, Empyreal Lord of Exocutions; meditate on all the names and faces of the bad people that you have killed to evaluate your actions. But Ragathiel, patron of noble soldiers, paladins, knights, and the wronged, nope, they have to go ritualistically murder someone daily.
Anyway, thanks Digital Mystic. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Paladin Codes in general, (just because I like to add my own tenets and beliefs with each character), but still cool. I've never seen an issue with Ragathiel in play, but I have heard a few individuals say there is. Most likely, it has a lot to do with the above representation of the NPC from Chronicles of the Righteous, but if that's the case, lets hope no one reads more into Iomedae in Wrath of the Righteous. :P
As far as possible codes, I'd probably drop the idea of balance, (both in the eye for an eye and the balance in all things sense).
1.) Some shout against the darkness, others try to light a candle against it. It is your duty to light the candle and make the darkness scream against you.
2.) Honor and duty. Even your enemies are worthy of respect. Never forget you are held to a higher standard. Defend the weak. That is your one duty. Do not lie. Do not flee from an enemy except to fulfill your one duty. Respect the weak and innocent. That is your Honor.
3.) There is a place for words and there is a place for battle. Know the difference and know which tool best serves others. Know that when you draw your blade, death follows. When you draw your blade, do not hesitate. It is a tool of death. Use it, but know that it was your own failure that forced your hand to need to draw that tool. No one else's.
4.) Do what must be done. And only what must be done.
Wow i don´t remember that! If i didn´t react, why didn´t you bring it to my attention?
Of course you are right, other Paladins can be just as disruptive and not everyone plays the same there.
In my experience, it happens more often with Paladins of Ragathiel though who mostly also happen to take the oath of vengeance. Pure statistics speaking there.
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Wow i don´t remember that! If i didn´t react, why didn´t you bring it to my attention?
I can even see it in myself. I generally prefer games with a lot of mystery, discovery, a sense of morality involved, etc. . . But sometimes, bad days happen at work, and I just want to kill stuff and role dice. Sometimes I just want to let loose a Flamestrike and not a Heal. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, or playing the game poorly. The game is there to have fun and escape. In some of the games I run online, I have a player that consistently only comments when there is a combat, and it can be very annoying when I tried to add little bits of personalization to my games or encourage more RP. But then I realize that that's not something they find fun. That's not what they play the game for.
Back to Ragathiel, it really seems that the biggest complaint is that they are "murder-hobo's". Or at least some of them. But that's something I see frequently with Rogues, Fighters, Monks, Magi, etc. . . I can't even count anymore how many Magi, Fighters, and Rogues get angry when I try to point out that all that stuff on the map, that stuff they can plainly see, prevents them from Furious Focus-Power Attack-Raging-Charging in. It's a player mentality, and not something that's related to Ragathiel at all. I'd actually go so far as to say Ragathiel as a choice is the smallest group with that mentality, if it's even relevant.
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Banning Ragathiel - Oh heck no! He's one of the best there is!
I hate when people think that Oath of Vengeance or Ragathiel = murder hobo. It drives me bonkers at the table when people think that just because I swore this oath that I should slay everything in sight.
Anyone that wants to do that is going to do that anyway - regardless of deity, alignment, or class. Luckily you only need to deal with them for a few hours, then you can opt to not play at their table in the future.
Giving yourself a good backstory as to why you took the oath is a fantastic way to stay in the boundaries of your paladin edicts, and follow the commandments of Ragathiel.
In my case a fey foundling Aasimar - left in the woods when her parents were taken by slavers to save her life. She joining up with Liberty's Edge to free everyone from oppression, and has ZERO tolerance for raiders or slavers. It doesn't matter if it is the law of the land, it is morally wrong. If evil attacks first, you are sworn to give your life to protect those in your charge. Sword first, diplomacy later. They started it, you will finish it.
You can deal the damage, then back up to non-lethal as they are about to fall. Stabilize them and turn them into the local authorities.
If their heart is evil. if their soul is black, then there is no need for this. Send them to Pharasma and she will judge them. If I am in the wrong, Ragathiel will smite me. There should also be no issues in slaying undead, demons, or devils - you don't pull your blade when there is evil to be purged.
The path of Ragathiel was not sugar-pies and rainbows. There was no perfection that burst into existance, he found his path and altered his fate. Ragathiel is not perfect and neither are his followers.
But that won't stop them from following in his path and striving to make themselves better.
P.S. Your Law's are amazing - Going to mesh them with what I have for my RP's!
Very nicely done! I would have hoped that the publishers would publish something about his code since there are many followers in games.
Ragathiel's obedience is really flavorful because of its difficult way to implement it. It does make sense that he wants people to be active crusaders against evil, and have his followers station themselves at the mouths of demon gates or in the midst of fighting. He is primarily an empyreal lord of crusades, first, and then chivalry, nobility second. Roleplay wise, if one of his devotees is on a boat in the ocean for 3 months, yeah, they kind of should feel a bit more distant from him.
I do wonder if there couldn't be a bit more lenience somewhere though. The daily piece is pretty enormous! Especially in the context of "what does proven mean" and yeah the hour-long ritual...
Does anyone have other "crusadey" type ideas that could also fit?
There is no way i´ll ever see the slaughtering of people as a good act.
Even playing this out House Stark style "i do my beheading myself" won´t really work. "Slay a proven wrongdoer" isn´t limited to demons in any way and for me it´s clearly something very deep in lawful evil territory worded that way.
Ragathiel should clearly get something that points out his other sides.
And obediences should not be a lifetime work, but something small and easy, that can actually be done.
Redeeming someone would be way better.
Well there can be a difference between a... nicer good and a hard-bitten good. Ragathiel is more of the latter, as he is the product of a fire goddess (so raging temper, hot-blooded, etc) and an enormously powerful archdevil (his own father being the one who tore off one of his wings). Between his upbringing and needing to desperately prove himself to the archons of the LG heavens, he's a pretty intense guy. He's still a good person, though, because he overwhelmingly tries to do good.
One important part of his obedience to remember (and as mentioned more briefly above) is that it requires "proven" evil as well as an "evil heart". The person executed cannot be simply a CN rogue driven by hunger, or an LE enforcer that simply chose not to get help for a man he beat and later died of his injuries. It depends on playstyle of course, but what it suggests is that the majority of encountered people will not qualify for Ragathiel's obedience. "It is not enough for the sacrifice to have an evil heart or evil intentions. They must have committed evil acts or evil deeds."
This creature also need not be human. The ideal targets of course would be mindless undead, demons, or LOTR-orcs (creatures that are established to be unequivocally evil at their creation). Ragathiel is not Sarenrae, is way more about the fire and brimstone (because of his origins), and another stance could argue that his approach is the pragmatic one that saves lives that Sarenrae's hope for redemption might not.
Ragathiel isn't the only hardcore LG deity out there. Dammerich is another one. He's all about finding evil and ending it in the most final way possible.
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Dammerich is more sort of a "capital punishment is a thing, so let's make sure it hits only the bad guys, works efficiently and that no innocents get harmed by the judicial machine". While I'm Not A Fan of good celestials endorsing torture, I can see how you can play a sane and level-headed LG servant of Dammy.
Ragathiel, on the other hand, is a psychotic omnicidial monster who covers his head with a sheet of lead every time his fellow empyreal lords cast detect evil on him. In my games, he gives WH40K Inquisition a run for their money in the "exterminate from the orbit, Emperor shall spare the faithful" department and is a squarely LE character who is tolerated by his fellows only because he's so damn good at this job and because the only thing he hates more than heaven, humanity, other celestials and himself is his dad and company.
I'd imagine a Paladin of Ragathiel being willing to try and redeem a fiend, though. Ragathiel himself was an Evil being that turned to Good, after all.
Perhaps we should expect a rewrite for him at some part?
His Obedience definitely needs one, and his attitude does seem extreme.
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You know, when you write a book about good angels for mostly American audience, you kind of need to take into the account that this will be read by people who have a very varied idea of what "good" is. So you get Arshea and Lymmeris for all the grown up hippies from Seattle and Ragathiel and Dammeris for the guns'n'death penalty Bible Belt folks.
Both groups will likely have strong opinions on what the opposing one considers "good" - you have Beckett saying that Arshy and Lymme are nothing more than CN fey, and you have me with my Yurpean point of view being uncomfortable with absolute good endorsing executions.
I applaud Paizo forwalking the fine line, even if I don't always agree with it. Writing deific good guys is, paradoxically, much harder than writing deific bad guys, due to the audience having such wildly differing expectations as to what is going to slapped with the label.
Why? Why can't their be a lawful good deity who is more concerned with meting out punishment for the wicked than hugs and cuddles? So what if he's a bit harder than other goods he is the unyielding steel to the fuzzy cuddly gods. At least he hasn't kidnapped any adventurers and "attacked" them if they don't behave.
No I just don't expect good to be perfect.
I´m amazed i agree with Gorbacz^^
Might be shared history and relative close egeocraphical points.
There already are some other deities which in my eyes cover the punishing bible god, like Iomedae (as seen in Wrath of the Righteous).
I´m tempted to make a comparions between Ragathiel and something historical, but that would be bad taste.
Either i´m understanding a lot of things wrong there, or Ragathiels write up is mainly evil. It would be great if that could get a new write up to truly embody chivalry and leave out that slaughtering killer part.
A divine being full of hate that is good? No.
A divine being that once was evil, ascended and now wants to help others see their erroneous ways? Yes please!
Still plenty of room to fight and kill offenders, or being a jerk by whiteknighting (not only to women in this case).
Somehow, I feel if the word Vengeance were changed to Retributive Justice we wouldn't have a problem.
It just doesn't have the same ring though.
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The empyreal lords are all written loosely for people to apply them however they want in their settings, just like all of paizo's materials. You want to make Desna a blithering airhead? sure! You want to make her the architect of the Space Between Worlds and the sole force keeping the horrorterrors of Lovecraft from Golarion? go ahead! But keep in mind the need for the claim to match in-text material supporting your stance (implicit or explicit, w/e), because otherwise you won't win the debate.
Ragathiel does not "slaughter" anyone or anything in the material world itself. It doesn't even say whether he concerns himself with mortals, beyond his stance of "they should join the crusade against evil" - as in the literal, unequivocal evil of the Hells. It doesn't even say he speciest against devils, or what he things of the creatures from the Hells, beyond his "tainted heritage" that has left him with a "constant struggle to master his baser impulses in service to the light" (ragathiel's entry, p. 21).
Ragathiel isn't supposed to be a perfect archon, crafted from the material of the heavens and perfect from his immaculate birth; he is the son of an archduke, i.e. one of Asmodeus's right-hand men, and as such is pretty far from perfect. That fact, along with the fact that he was born rather than created makes him more akin to any mortal than it does to the creatures of either the heavens or the hells.
He is also the epitome of Sarenrae's redemption attempts and it would be hilariously lulzical if the unnamed "fire goddess" that is his mother ends up being her. As such his story is about someone who tries, actively, to be good and live up to the ideals espoused by an LG alignment (and the L there can very, very often be quite evil). To a mortal who isn't used to facing hordes of demons and devils - which are, without exaggeration, literal incarnations of evil - tirelessly fighting against them might seem crazy. Maybe it is, it's probably how he copes. But the point is that he tries to be good, which is why he would not ever get an LE alignment. And once again, I mean, you can totally do whatever you want with him in your campaign setting - maybe he falls! maybe he was LE all along! - but there isn't any material in his entry itself that would support or suggest that in a strong way. Just because some players (who sound like they play murderhobos to begin with) use his obedience as an excuse to exploit some mechanics doesn't mean that there's anything in his entry in and of itself that reflects that.
Anyways, on another note, the empyreal lords are all meant to serve niches that the main deities do not fill themselves. Azata and fey go hand in hand, so deities like Chadali and Chucaro are perfect for people who want something fey-themed and less enigmatic than the Eldest (also there is no deific material for the Eldest so they are decent substitutes). Similarly, there are many empyreal lords that are literal copies of existing gods and goddesses, such as the Black Butterfly (a space fairy that fights naked and in space and even lives in Desna's shadow). What they offer mechanically is a way for someone to differentiate themselves from a "mainstream" or more widespread faith and keep a deeper element of mystery to their beliefs - either on the part of the player or the DM with an NPC.
Ragathiel is analogous to Iomedae, yes, but he offers a very specific side of some of the things she espouses; yeah we see her get a bit peeved in Wrath of the Righteous, but she isn't an inter-planar creature that is focused on the overarching fight against evil. She is from Golarion, she cares primarily about humans on Golarion, she is a human goddess, and inherited the mantle of Aroden, the human god. If someone is like "well I'm not human, why would I care about her" then Ragathiel is an alternative option.
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Could someone clarify how Ragathiel comes off as Evil at all? Minus the ritual part. I simply do not see it in any source. Not on the Chronicles of the Righteous book, or as a patron of Magnimar. Not seeing it in Inner Sea World Guide/Gods. Likewise, just not seeing anything that could indicate evil in Faiths of Purity, though I will admit the description of Arshea there actually DOES portray it is Good where CotT doesnt.
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Well, he's just Father Paladin Anderson from Hellsing. What he loves the most is spreading the word and love of Heaven to the many people of the world, teaching peace and love for all! But the one thing he loves more than that is killing vampires, Protestants, werewolves, leprechauns, Nazis, Nazi Protestants, Nazi Catholics, Vampires and everybody who gets in the way.
I kinda wish we had more developer commentary on this one.
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Ragathiel, on the other hand, is a psychotic omnicidial monster who covers his head with a sheet of lead every time his fellow empyreal lords cast detect evil on him.
Perhaps in your games G, but that is not how he is presented in the source material, and it clearly isn't how everyone else sees him.
For me, Ragathiel is a very welcome, and necessary, part of the Good community. I like an obedience that I might not get every day. It's more powerful than most obediences and is appropriately more difficult to perform.
As for his flavor/nature that people find disagreeable, that doesn't mean he isn't Good. I don't care for Arshea, but that doesn't make he/she/it not Good. Take away Arshea and Good is too sexless. Take away Ragathiel and Good becomes too fluffy bunny. We need both.
Why have more than one good deity? They and all of their followers can only do things one way. Otherwise it's not Good, right?
I've never heard another player in any group I've been in complain because the paladin killed an evil creature. But, I've known players to almost be run out on a rail because their paladin demanded we redeem every creature we came across.
Maybe it's a game, with a game's morality. And Ragathiel is there so you can be good and a little viscious.
You guys are getting way too hung up on the vengeance aspect. Remember that deities in PF each have several aspects they cover. Ragathiel's other aspects include chivalry and duty. He is also the General of Heaven's armies. That divine military officer/chivalrous knight flavor is perfect for a paladin I think. He makes alot more sense as a patron deity for paladins than Shelyn, for example.
Also, his favored weapon is a big freaking sword, how fitting is that for a paladin? The problems I'm seeing in this thread have nothing to do with the deity and everything to do with bad players.
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Need to have a Paladin of Ghenshau show up somewhere...