Vital strike, dirty trick, and fly by attack

[Korthis]

I have a barbarian in a campaign and I am planning on mixing in some primal hunter for rp reasons.

character so far:

Human barbarian (invulnerable rager)
Level: 3 (we just hit level 4 at the end of last session)
Defensive stats:
AC: 18
HP: 37 Saves vs spells/spell-likes/SU
Fort: +5 / +9
Ref: +3 / +7
Will: +3/ +6
Offensive stats:
Lucerne Hammer(+1,furious w/power attack/rage): +11 1d12 +15
Thinking about buying a spiked gauntlet justin case.
(we are a bit over wealth by level)
Stats:
STR: 21 (with +2 racial and +2 belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

BAB: +3
CMB: +9 (sunder +16)
CMD: +20

Feats: Skill focus: Sunder, Extra rage power-strength surge, Power attack
Rage power: Superstitious
Skills: Intimidate 5, craft weapon (mostly for rp) 5, perception 7, sense motive, 7, spellcraft (for rp and spell sunder) 7
I'm planning on taking the first dip now (level 3 barb, level 4 divine/primal hunter) to go with the story. Then I plan to go barb until level 6 (barb 6/hunter1) and pick up spellsunder. From there hunter til 12 and unsure of what from then on, probably just hunter all the way.)

I am planning on using the evolutions for supernatural flight @cl 11, picking up the fly-by attack feat, vital strike chain and then using fly-by attacks on tougher enemies at higher level. My question is; is this viable? This is my first real melee character and the highest level character that I've ever had ended at 13ish (master summoner- mainly just did battlefield control and used SLA). Will being mobile help keep me alive?

Things love to crit on me so I was thinking that by using flyby attack I would be hit less (at least less full attacks). I'll have lead blades and can pick up enlarge person through a magical item. I guess I'm worried that I will still get wrecked often and ALSO be lackluster in combat instead of being a glass cannon which is what I am now.

Other questions: Are there other good "standard action" feats/abilities I should look at for the build?

plan through level 9:

lvl 4:Divine/primal hunter: ability point STR, spells:lvl 0(detect magic, create water,guidance,purify f&d), lvl 1(faerie fire, lead blades), Evolutions: Tentacle,push,unnatural aura
lvl 5:barbarian-rage power witch hunter, feat-weapon focus lucerne hammer
lvl 6:Barbarian
lvl 7:Barb-Feat:vital strike ,Rage power-spell sunder
lvl 8:hunter
lvl 9:hunter-Feat:furious finish, Cleric domain-destruction:Torture-(painful smite + vital strike seems...good), domain spell: truestrike

Any ideas/advice/obvious pitfalls?

[Korthis]

*sigh
Why doesn't anyone answer me...ever. I may as well stop coming here.

[Berti Blackfoot]

The FAQ says you cannot use Vital Strike with Spring Attack, so you probably can't use it with Fly-By Attack either. Since it requires a standard action, not just an attack.

That's all I can say, not an expert in barbarians.

[Korthis]

flyby attack:

Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.

vital strike:

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

attack action from the combat chapter:

Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don't cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn't otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can't combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren't attack actions, such as Cleave.

I'm not seeing the disconnect. Spring attack is a full round action whereas flyby attack is a standard action. The attack action is a type of standard action. I understand your viewpoint as they are both similar abilities, thank you for trying to help.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Yeah, I don't see any reason you could't Vital Strike with a Flyby Attack.

Do be aware though that unlike Spring Attack, Flyby Attack doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity.

[Korthis]

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Do be aware though that unlike Spring Attack, Flyby Attack doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity.

Thank you for pointing that out. I've been looking at the lunge feat so that I could attack from farther away so that I won't cause as many AOO's. Maybe I should switch out my feat at 5 for combat reflexes instead of weapon focus since I will have tremendous reach.

[chuffster]

Is the goal that you will kind of flit around the battlefield, doing fly by attacks on people who will then be unable to close with you and do damage?

As Owen suggests, one problem is that you'll have to figure out some way to avoid attacks of opportunity. If you aren't locked in on taking the divine archetype you could get there with hunter tactics + escape route.

The other problem is that 11th level monsters are pretty mobile. Is there somebody on your team who would pin them in place? If so, why do you need to fly by instead of, e.g., flanking? Traditionally I would actually expect the barbarian to be in the pin down role, culminating with Come and Get Me at 12.

[Stockvillain]

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Yeah, I don't see any reason you could't Vital Strike with a Flyby Attack.

Do be aware though that unlike Spring Attack, Flyby Attack doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity.

That . . . will make for some ungodly dragon tactics.

My players are going to howl for blood.

[Hogeyhead]

Well I'd recommend to go along with this build some pretty basic feats that can be easily overlooked. Namely dodge and mobility. If you are often large let your superior reach with a reach weapon keep you safe, and be safer with mobility. You will be moving around a lot of the time, this really makes mobility worth it.

Although dirty trick is one of the best combat maneuvers as it stays relevant among the longest, there are still two problems. 1 costs lots of feats to be really good, 2 takes your standard action. If you can both vital strike and dirty trick at the same time somehow then it is a great ability. Otherwise just vital strike.

Assuming the ememy doesn't get hit you with AoO's and that they don't get to full round the rest of the party, you have a great combination of abilities. You each get one attack per round, but yours is better, and this assumes that they have an equal reach to yours.

[Korthis]

Quote:

Is the goal that you will kind of flit around the battlefield, doing fly by attacks on people who will then be unable to close with you and do damage?

Yes that is pretty much the gist of it; flyby dirty tricks, vital strikes, painful smiting.

The things is I'm uncomfortable in melee. We are level three and so far in the last two combats I got one shot (knocked from full to unconscious by a critical hit) by a big monster, then later in another fight put to half health in one hit (crit again) in addition to two necessary saves vs effects. I figure if I stick and move I will look less tasty.

Quote:

The other problem is that 11th level monsters are pretty mobile. Is there somebody on your team who would pin them in place? If so, why do you need to fly by instead of, e.g., flanking? Traditionally I would actually expect the barbarian to be in the pin down role, culminating with Come and Get Me at 12

The party is pretty much all brawn. Paladin,bloodrager,bard?,fighter,me. I figure if I go this route I can always find the most advantageous position. With perfect maneuverability I could fly, attack, then end behind the bloodrager which has blur and displacement and nothing is going to want to take an AOO from both of us.

Quote:

Although dirty trick is one of the best combat maneuvers as it stays relevant among the longest, there are still two problems. 1 costs lots of feats to be really good, 2 takes your standard action. If you can both vital strike and dirty trick at the same time somehow then it is a great ability. Otherwise just vital strike.

True enough and a good point out. I would probably use dirty trick to distract/blind an enemy when someone is in trouble otherwise just vital strike

[TGMaxMaxer]

One combo if you have the stats and feats available is to take Vital Strike and Felling Smash.

Vital Strike uses the attack action.

Felling Smash says "If you use the attack action to make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus while using Power Attack and you hit an opponent, you can spend a swift action to attempt a trip combat maneuver against that opponent."

So, Vital Strike with Power Attack qualifies to trigger Felling Smash, which lets you trip non-flyers in addition to the Flyby Vital Strike damage as a swift action.

I pretty much play PFS, where most enemies are medium or large humanoid types, depending on you campaign it could vary.

I have Felling Smash and Gr Trip/Gr Dirty Trick on my PFS Lore Warden/Skulking Slayer.

Charge in, Power Attack, Felling Smash, and Gr Dirty Trick from the Gr Trip AoO. I have done damage, and the enemy is now prone and blind. good times.

[Berti Blackfoot]

you are correct, flyby attack is a lot better than spring attack. wow!

sorry for the confusion.

boy my players will really not like that end boss with flyby attack in the module we are on next week.

[Korthis]

Felling smash seems great but I don't have the int required. If I'm planning on having superior reach most of the time could I use "Stand Still" to stop opponents from getting within range to attack me?

say I have a reach weapon (10 ft), Reach evolution (+5 ft), lunge (+5ft), enlarge (+5ft), One natural weapon...say bite or claws would allow me to threaten from adjacent out to 25ft away?

Actually would the push evolution accomplish the same thing? If the opponent attempts to move adjacent and I hit him and succeed in pushing him back can he use the rest of his movement to close in anyway?
I assume that if he charged and he got pushed back he wouldn't have any movement left to use but on a regular move + attack he would so stand still would be superior unless the enemy is charging.

Also The lucerne hammer has the brace special property. If I ready an action to brace and the opponent charges I still get the readied action and also an AOO if once they move closer, correct?
A=me, B=enemy
If he is charging I would get the brace here:
AxxxxxB
and AOO here
AxxxxB

[TGMaxMaxer]

Stand Still is a trap feat for reach users. It only works if they are adjacent, not just in your threatened area.

Trip is a good maneuver for reach lockdown, as long as they aren't flying. If they are prone, they have to stop the move and use another move to stand up.

You could take 2 levels of Brawler, that would negate the Int requirement, and get you a bonus feat, and another that you could use as needed 4 minutes per day.

[Joey Cote]

Why is everyone so concerned about attacks of opportunity. You can still use acrobatics while raging. Acrobatics is a class skill for barbarians and your only going to be wearing medium armor. Eventually get a mithral breastplate, a magic item with + to acrobatics, and max out our points in acrobatics.

[Just a Guess]

Dirty trick is quite good for a barbarian as he can get savage dirty trick at level 6 which replaces an attack instead of being a standard action and is stronger than normal dirty trick, too.

[alexd1976]

Just pump Acrobatics, AoO are easily avoided...