Gunslinger Free actions in PFS


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5/5 5/55/55/5

135 gold a session is expending resources? Really? Thats supposed to be a limiting factor?

Grand Lodge 4/5

FLite wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
FLite wrote:

I believe there is a recent FAQ or some such:

Reload bow is a "not an action" not a free action.

Drawing an arrow is a free action. He was just using short hand instead if fully explaining the process.

I'm pretty sure drawing ammo is included in loading a bow as a not an action. But my forum foo is failing me. So if anyone cares they can go find the documentation.

It was a big part of the whole discussion about how the FAQ limiting repeated free actions to 3 a turn reigned in duel wielding double barrel gun slingers but didn't cripple zen archers.

CRB 141:

Quote:
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).

CRB 182:

Quote:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

TL;DR: Drawing an arrow as part of an attack is a free action, nocking said arrow isn't an action at all.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
135 gold a session is expending resources? Really? Thats supposed to be a limiting factor?

Well, not super limiting, I admit. And its not counting cartridges which are needed to get those 15 shots, etc. But it's more than an archer.

But I'm of the mind that if there's a way to break it, it'll be broken. It'll eventually sort out by people not wanting to play at Flash Eastwood's table, or Flash limiting himself to provide more fun.

Although I'm not against making it so they get all their attacks, rapid shot, etc, but not more.

The Exchange

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
135 gold a session is expending resources? Really? Thats supposed to be a limiting factor?

if your only spending 135 gold a session you have managed to build a very cheap gun slinger.... I usually spend that in a single combat on my level 7 gun slinger.

But that's not the point. the point is why do you (or any other GM) have the right to be a jerk and tell someone that there character should not work like that by imposing a limit (not saying that you do that), are you going to limit the number of shots that a Zen archer can take? or tell the bard he can't use bardic knowledge on something?

We may not like the power level a character brings to the table, but I can give plenty of example of over powered character build, however nothing give me or another GM the right to arbitrary tell that player that the character does not work at a PFS table because we think its not balanced.

Personal is a GM wants to limit any character from doing something based on there own feelings of how the player should play, or how powerful a character should be, I wont play at there table as that's pure and simple a violation of "don't be a jerk"

Lantern Lodge

Beyond the fact that the ammo isn't even all that expensive, I have never once seen a gunslinger spend money on a shot. Abundant Ammunition is super easy to do yourself with Use Magic Device, a 2 PP wand, and a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone.


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Philderbeast wrote:
[But that's not the point. the point is why do you (or any other GM) have the right to be a jerk and tell someone that there character should not work like that by imposing a limit

It's not the GM being a jerk. It is the GM enforcing the don't be a jerk rule on the player who has forgotten, or doesn't care, that there are other players at the table who want to play as well.

Which is why over powered builds have to be reigned in. It has nothing to do with GM ego's. It has everything to do with the other players sharing a table with the jerk who makes them irrelevant by bringing the overpowered build.

And yes, the same can apply to an archer or a gunslinger or an old summoner or a few other builds that can leave an entire table sitting around feeling useless.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

FLite wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
FLite wrote:

I believe there is a recent FAQ or some such:

Reload bow is a "not an action" not a free action.

Drawing an arrow is a free action. He was just using short hand instead if fully explaining the process.

I'm pretty sure drawing ammo is included in loading a bow as a not an action. But my forum foo is failing me. So if anyone cares they can go find the documentation.

It was a big part of the whole discussion about how the FAQ limiting repeated free actions to 3 a turn reigned in duel wielding double barrel gun slingers but didn't cripple zen archers.

You aren't finding it, cause there's nothing to find. The CRB, which was quoted above, says exactly, that drawing an arrow costs a free action.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
trik wrote:
take a dwarf and use your favored class bonus to reduce misfires. Reliable and Greater Reliable also help knock that misfire chance out. Maybe it should be errata'ed that gunslingers can not reduce the misfire chance below 1, period.

It's already not possible.

Dwarf Gunslinger Favored Class Bonus wrote:
Reduce the misfire chance for one type of firearm by 1/4. You cannot reduce the misfire chance of a firearm below 1.

If the misfire on your firearm was a 3, then an 8th level Dwarf Gunslinger would misfire on a 1.

And an 8th level Dwarf Gunslinger with a Reliable firearm would misfire on a... 1.

The Dwarf FCB isn't all that good for that reason. You can never go below 1. The moment you purchase that Reliable enchantment you lose the effects of 4 levels' worth of FCB.

And if you go with Reliable, Greater, you may as well have never used your FCB.

Does that only apply to the bonus from the dwarf FCB? Can reliable reduce the misfire chance below 1 in combination with the dwarf FCB? The reliable text indicates that the misfire chance can be reduced to 0.

While you don't see it too much in PFS, gunslingers (musket master and pistolero) get worse at level 13 when they lose the misfire chance. Then it's just a broken class destroying a game system that wasn't designed to support it.

Even worse is a Bolt Ace at level 11 with the Sharp Shoot Signature deed. All attacks resolving against touch AC at 120 ft at the cost of 0 grit... Give them a double crossbow and it just gets more broken.

Double ranged weapons *should* work like Rapid Shot at best. It's extremely cheap to purchase them and the way they work currently, they are WAY better than a feat, without having to expend a feat. You can use both barrels on a standard action attack, effectively giving you 2 attacks with a standard action. You can outright double your attacks on a full attack, which is how you see builds shooting 14+ shots in a single round. Nothing else in the game can compare to that.

There are tons of reasons why the gunslinger class is a problem. How about a mostly SAD build with the secondary stat directly augmenting the single low save. The primary stat not only affects to hit and damage, it also increases AC (and touch AC) and many skills. They get additional bonus AC just because. They get 1/2 the bonus feats of a fighter AND double the skill points of a fighter (4+int). They can use a d12/x4 ranged weapon that fires twice for every attack and targets touch AC, compared to a bow user d8/x3 that requires dex to hit and str for additional damage, fires once per attack and targets normal AC. The bullet cost is trivial beyond level 1. The gunslinger is simply leagues above other ranged classes. Not to mention they multiclass amazingly well with 5 levels in gunslinger and all of the abilities of another class. Try mixing one with a war priest and using swift cast buffs in addition to full round attacks. Save up for greater reliable mixed with dwarf FCB (I believe these will stack) and you can blow things up without misfiring, while casting spells every turn too.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
That's fine for a musketeer or a pirate. But when a good portion of your class is based around firearms abilities, your called a gunslinger, and having a brace of pistols would be something you need to be level 4-5 to even consider its not what people expect when they look at the class.
Then they need to rewrite their expectations. The base gunslinger using Golarion defaults, isn't Roland, he's not Billy the Kid, he's a 17th century musketeer using a much more primitive weapon than a Colt Revolver.

No, he's not. He's flavored as a 17th century musketeer but he functions like billy the kid on a caffine bender. That disparity is a big chunk of the problem.

Which was the point I was making. Not to mention if you want that style of guns then your gonna need to make said gun worth using. If you decide you want a lets say 3 rnd reload weapon, thats exotic, and cost 1000g, and only does up to a 1d12 on damage, while being the only weapon in the game with more than a miss on a natural 1. I doubt you will see a lot of use. Sure its touch AC but for no extra prof. and a lot less gold one can simple use a heavy crossbow for the same effect with only a single point of damage lost on average.

Grand Lodge

Jessex wrote:
Philderbeast wrote:
[But that's not the point. the point is why do you (or any other GM) have the right to be a jerk and tell someone that there character should not work like that by imposing a limit

It's not the GM being a jerk. It is the GM enforcing the don't be a jerk rule on the player who has forgotten, or doesn't care, that there are other players at the table who want to play as well.

Which is why over powered builds have to be reigned in. It has nothing to do with GM ego's. It has everything to do with the other players sharing a table with the jerk who makes them irrelevant by bringing the overpowered build.

It should be added that most builds aren't actively reliant on the GMs active participation/consent to pull off.

If you have a hand free you can reload firearms until your heart is content. (assuming you have taken appropriate feats and consumables.)

However, two weapon fighting pistols require a free hand to reload.

Player just fired both weapons.
Can I use gloves of storing to Store Pistol A? Sure. (1)
Can I reload Pistol B? Yes.(2)
Can I unstore the pistol A? Sure. (3)
Can I swap pistols in each hand? Now we are pushing the boundary on a "free action" (an action so simple it can nearly be done without thought.) My thoughts are "No" on this, as I would make it a move action, but for arguments sake... sure (4)
Can I store Pistol B? (5)
Reload Pistol A? (6)
Unstore Pistol B? (7)

Congrats you have succeeded in taking 7 free actions all using your hands within 6 seconds in order to get 1 more attack.

Player: Wait, I still have more attacks because I have Imp TWF and Iteratives.

Fires both weapons (and reloads) (free actions 8-14)

Stores Pistol A and fire B: (15)
Reloads B: (16)
Fire and reload B (17)
Unstore Pistol A (18) to be ready to repeat actions next round

As you can see free action limitation aren't a problem using 1 weapon, and I would never begrudge someone for wanting to use their full attack round but certain builds actively require GM consent being liberal with free actions. In a homebrew this may be acceptable to the GMs power expectations for characters, but in PFS it is not.

But I guess I'm being a jerk... or perhaps concerned about other players. Its all relative.

But for the OP, one firearm + free action reload = Fire away.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Lormyr wrote:
Beyond the fact that the ammo isn't even all that expensive, I have never once seen a gunslinger spend money on a shot. Abundant Ammunition is super easy to do yourself with Use Magic Device, a 2 PP wand, and a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone.

...AND the waste of an entire round of full attacks. Which is one of the reasons my gunslinger doesn't do this. I think worse case scenario I had was spending around 350-400 GP on ammo in Bone Keep at 7th.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Jessex wrote:
Philderbeast wrote:
[But that's not the point. the point is why do you (or any other GM) have the right to be a jerk and tell someone that there character should not work like that by imposing a limit

It's not the GM being a jerk. It is the GM enforcing the don't be a jerk rule on the player who has forgotten, or doesn't care, that there are other players at the table who want to play as well.

Which is why over powered builds have to be reigned in. It has nothing to do with GM ego's. It has everything to do with the other players sharing a table with the jerk who makes them irrelevant by bringing the overpowered build.

And yes, the same can apply to an archer or a gunslinger or an old summoner or a few other builds that can leave an entire table sitting around feeling useless.

What do you do to reign in the archers?


trollbill wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Philderbeast wrote:
[But that's not the point. the point is why do you (or any other GM) have the right to be a jerk and tell someone that there character should not work like that by imposing a limit

It's not the GM being a jerk. It is the GM enforcing the don't be a jerk rule on the player who has forgotten, or doesn't care, that there are other players at the table who want to play as well.

Which is why over powered builds have to be reigned in. It has nothing to do with GM ego's. It has everything to do with the other players sharing a table with the jerk who makes them irrelevant by bringing the overpowered build.

And yes, the same can apply to an archer or a gunslinger or an old summoner or a few other builds that can leave an entire table sitting around feeling useless.

What do you do to reign in the archers?

I said archers need to be reigned in. Not that I do. When I run PFS I obey the rules. Outside PFS I manage my games as I see fit.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka Gwen Smith

BigNorseWolf wrote:
trollbill wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is. An archer spending the same number of feats will not get the rapid scaling plus to hit that the ginslinger does with touch ac
If he is slinging gin I would dare say the more he slings the less accurate he will get.
You should see uncle jesee as an alchemist...

Challenge...accepted!


Dorothy Lindman wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
trollbill wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is. An archer spending the same number of feats will not get the rapid scaling plus to hit that the ginslinger does with touch ac
If he is slinging gin I would dare say the more he slings the less accurate he will get.
You should see uncle jesee as an alchemist...
Challenge...accepted!

Start here if you need a quick jump in the right direction.

Lantern Lodge

trollbill wrote:
...AND the waste of an entire round of full attacks. Which is one of the reasons my gunslinger doesn't do this. I think worse case scenario I had was spending around 350-400 GP on ammo in Bone Keep at 7th.

Possibly, depending on play style, GM, and adventure in question. The two I played with for long periods cared nothing for the PP cost on the wand, so literally recast it every single minute in dungeon crawl scenarios (we play a lot of modules and APs). In scenarios that tactic is a bit harder since we don't always have a good guess when the conflict is coming.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Lormyr wrote:
trollbill wrote:
...AND the waste of an entire round of full attacks. Which is one of the reasons my gunslinger doesn't do this. I think worse case scenario I had was spending around 350-400 GP on ammo in Bone Keep at 7th.
Possibly, depending on play style, GM, and adventure in question. The two I played with for long periods cared nothing for the PP cost on the wand, so literally recast it every single minute in dungeon crawl scenarios (we play a lot of modules and APs). In scenarios that tactic is a bit harder since we don't always have a good guess when the conflict is coming.

What happened when combat started on the 54 seconds after they last activated? Or did combat always start on even minutes?

Lantern Lodge

FLite wrote:
What happened when combat started on the 54 seconds after they last activated? Or did combat always start on even minutes?

In some cases, large portions of the dungeons would just go round to round as we basically buffed up at the entrance, and then swat teamed through sections of the place at a time. Combat rounds and movement speeds make that easy to track on a map.

In instances where we paused for one reason or another to investigate something or talk a moment, we have a digital alert timer auto programmed to a minute. All you do is tap it to start, stop, reset.

The Exchange

Lormyr wrote:
Beyond the fact that the ammo isn't even all that expensive, I have never once seen a gunslinger spend money on a shot. Abundant Ammunition is super easy to do yourself with Use Magic Device, a 2 PP wand, and a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone.

This doest work. You can only charge the stone with a spell you cast your self or a scroll as per a ring of spell storing. So if your using a wand you need to cast it when you want it from the wand so it takes you out for round.

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