At what spell level would Haste be a weak spell? Would it be unoptimal if it were a 6th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell? 7th level? 8th? 9th? Epic?
(This is assuming you make Blessing of Fervor a similar level spell)
I think at 5th level it would still be a go to spell. At 6th level it would be up against Mass Bull's Strength. Haste still has the edge because MBS doesn't stack with belts, doesn't grant extra attacks, and STR isn't every meleer's prime stat, plus haste helps non-combatants with AC, reflex, and movement. So you are looking at 7th level before it is level appropriate. So, it would be a weak 8th level spell. I bet people would still learn and cast it regularly at that level though.
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Or have Haste be single-target, and make "Haste, Mass" be a thing? Or maybe you just have it so Haste ages you faster?I think it depends on party makeup - our groups tend to be martial/summon-heavy, so haste is even more potent. I could see preparing it at 5th or higher.Now that would be an interesting take on nerfing Haste.
Rather than increasing the spell level, restrict the number of targets to either the level of the spell slot from which it was cast or slot level +1.
Single-target/Mass haste has some possibilities.
Much as I enjoy the thematic and nostalgic aspect, though, I've never seen a 3.x campaign where aging would be a legitimate counter-balance. Unless your group is really spamming it.
At best, they just save it for the big fights, which to me isn't ideal either. I had a similar issue with Mythic. They'll just save up all their power for the boss and blow him/her/it away instantly.
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Or have Haste be single-target, and make "Haste, Mass" be a thing? Or maybe you just have it so Haste ages you faster?I think it depends on party makeup - our groups tend to be martial/summon-heavy, so haste is even more potent. I could see preparing it at 5th or higher.Now that would be an interesting take on nerfing Haste.
Rather than increasing the spell level, restrict the number of targets to either the level of the spell slot from which it was cast or slot level +1.
Single-target/Mass haste has some possibilities.
Much as I enjoy the thematic and nostalgic aspect, though, I've never seen a 3.x campaign where aging would be a legitimate counter-balance. Unless your group is really spamming it.
At best, they just save it for the big fights, which to me isn't ideal either. I had a similar issue with Mythic. They'll just save up all their power for the boss and blow him/her/it away instantly.
Maybe aging could be some sort of quiet side effect that you just slowly start to notice. Reversing that aging could be a fun subplot... if age-reducing magic wasn't common. But penalties like that are perhaps a bit too hard- either they forget about it, or they die of advancing several age categories...
Idea: What if it causes them to temporarily advance an age category in terms of stat penalties and such, and this goes away after a day? So it's basically a once-a-day deal.
"Quiet side-effects" are hard to do in a game where players are aware of the mechanics of their actions. And going the other way - keeping it secret only to spring it on them later - will likely make the players angry, especially if it's supposed to be a part of the spell (and not the machinations of a rival tainting their magic or something).
As for the temporary/once-a-day thing, see the final portion of my previous post. ^_^
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I think at 5th level it would still be a go to spell. At 6th level it would be up against Mass Bull's Strength. Haste still has the edge because MBS doesn't stack with belts, doesn't grant extra attacks, and STR isn't every meleer's prime stat, plus haste helps non-combatants with AC, reflex, and movement. So you are looking at 7th level before it is level appropriate. So, it would be a weak 8th level spell. I bet people would still learn and cast it regularly at that level though.At what spell level would Haste be a weak spell? Would it be unoptimal if it were a 6th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell? 7th level? 8th? 9th? Epic?
(This is assuming you make Blessing of Fervor a similar level spell)
I'd agree with you - except that Mass Bull's Strength has a much longer duration. It's minute/level instead of round/level. So Mass Bull's Strength is more of a pre-combat buff, while Haste has to use up a combat round.
And frankly - I don't think I've ever seen anyone take Mass Bull's Strength - in a party they only have a couple of targets that benefit much - so they could just take the 2nd level version a couple times - so it's not exactly a top tier 6th level spell. And by level 11-12, those targets have at least +2 belts.
Or have Haste be single-target, and make "Haste, Mass" be a thing? Or maybe you just have it so Haste ages you faster?I think it depends on party makeup - our groups tend to be martial/summon-heavy, so haste is even more potent. I could see preparing it at 5th or higher.Now that would be an interesting take on nerfing Haste.
Rather than increasing the spell level, restrict the number of targets to either the level of the spell slot from which it was cast or slot level +1.
Single-target/Mass haste has some possibilities.
Much as I enjoy the thematic and nostalgic aspect, though, I've never seen a 3.x campaign where aging would be a legitimate counter-balance. Unless your group is really spamming it.
At best, they just save it for the big fights, which to me isn't ideal either. I had a similar issue with Mythic. They'll just save up all their power for the boss and blow him/her/it away instantly.
Maybe aging could be some sort of quiet side effect that you just slowly start to notice. Reversing that aging could be a fun subplot... if age-reducing magic wasn't common. But penalties like that are perhaps a bit too hard- either they forget about it, or they die of advancing several age categories...
Idea: What if it causes them to temporarily advance an age category in terms of stat penalties and such, and this goes away after a day? So it's basically a once-a-day deal.
I swear there was something like the aging effect in a previous version of D&D, was it for haste?
I remember hating it, that's for sure... never used the spell once.
Mass bull's strength might be competitive for summon-focused characters.
I think that's the only time I would ever consider it maybe-kinda-but-still-iffy competitive but with a qualifier that the summons have to be of the 1 min/level variety.
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Mass bull's strength might be competitive for summon-focused characters.I think that's the only time I would ever consider it maybe-kinda-but-still-iffy competitive but with a qualifier that the summons have to be of the 1 min/level variety.
Fair enough. ^_^
Of course, at least three classes have access to that sort of duration now...
My opinion:
4th level would still be worth taking... at 5th I don't think I would bother anymore.
There are times where I don't take it now. Nevertheless, I could see it still being balanced and useful as high as 7th-level--provided you gave it a casting time of 1 swift action, of course. :D
I like haste as is because it is a spell that allows martials to do their thing. So it would not be something I would want to increase in level.
But considering its strength 4th or 5th level would surely be ok.
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I miss Swift Haste from 3.5.
I think it was Ranger only, a second level personal swift action spell that gave you Haste for 1d4 rounds.
In 3.5 I had a wizard custom make a 2nd level single target Haste that lasted for the same duration, and it wasn't bad.
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Be prepared that if you make it a higher level spell, it's incredibly likely that spell casters would simply carry around wands, scrolls, or staves containing it. It's that good. Raising the spell slot level does mean the caster is less likely to cast it out of his spell slots. But since it's a buff that lasts at least 5 rounds (the length of most combats) you don't need to worry about spell DCs or any of the other issues that offensive spells have when placed in items.
Haste is just too good not to use regularly, especially in a large party with 3 martially inclined characters.
I think 5th level is a reasonable limit, considering 3.5's "Righteous Wrath of the Faithful" and how useful that is for clerics.
Though I would probably still cast it as a sixth level spell, if begrudgingly.
Also, rather than bemoan how much it helps the group (which primarily it really only helps martial characters who need help more than casters) deal with the increased effectiveness on the other side of the table because encouraging a caster to buff is great. The caster feels useful, the martials appreciate it because they get to do there job better. Everybody is happy.
In order to keep combat challenging I suggest you apply the advanced template to everything as well as max hp per hit die. With optimized groups I find that CR = party level + 2 is about the equivalent challenge rating for the theoretical CR = party level that exists in the guide portion of the books for GMs. That guide assume non optimized parties and characters. In reference to what those are, go look at any of the core iconic character builds. Those are the kinds of builds that the CR = party level paradigm was based around. Paizo set things up for a low level of optimization.
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Be prepared that if you make it a higher level spell, it's incredibly likely that spell casters would simply carry around wands, scrolls, or staves containing it. It's that good. Raising the spell slot level does mean the caster is less likely to cast it out of his spell slots.
Very true. Raise it to 4th level, we'll grab a wand. Raise it to 5th, say hello to my scroll of haste. Even better, being higher level means the minimum caster level goes up, which makes it last longer and target more allies.
I've never seen anyone cast MBS, and haste is far superior, +1 hit, ac, reflex saves, extra full BAB attack, +30 move vs +4 str (and most non summoned things will already have at least a +4 belt by that level).
Making haste single target and introducing a level 6 or 7 mass haste seems like the best suggestion for nerfing to me.
A single charge from a 4th level wand costs more than a character's entire share of loot from a 5th level encounter.
I feel like spamming Haste from wands and scrolls is prohibitively expensive at low and even mid levels.
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Mass bull's strength might be competitive for summon-focused characters.Any summon-focused character without augment summoning probably isn't all that summon-focused.+2 hit/damage sounds like a lot in the beginning but it gets a lot less impressive as the levels go up. And it is a two feat investment for most folks.
Fortunately Herolab has made handling SM spells with all of the feats and trimmings, a LOT easier in the last update.
Two feats for a constant mass bull's strength and mass bear's endurance on all your summons seems pretty worth it. The extra hp is not worth nothing.
While that may be true at higher level it has to compete with powerful control effects which potentially shut down encounters entirely. Even at level 3 Haste has to compete with stuff like Glitterdust, Burst of Radiance, Create Pit, Aqueous Orb etc as your opening combat move and all of them are arguably going to have significantly more impact on the battle. If it sat at 4th or 5th it is competing with persistent level 2 control, black tentacles, confusion, wall of stone/force etc.
I'll give you Glitterdust is competitive when you have to worry about an invisible enemy. But burst of radiance only competes for a couple of levels at best without using heighten. Where as haste can always be cast of whatever spell slot you choose to set it at, while always having the same great effect and not having to worry about save DCs. It's a guaranteed success versus a save or suck spell. Create Pit and Aqueous Orb are good battlefield control spells, but they're also just as good on round 2 as they are round 1.
Basically, unless you're confidant your opening spell can neutralize almost every enemies ability to fight or put up resistance, haste remains a strong choice. More so in a martial heavy party. An extra attack at full BAB is a lot of extra damage over the course of 5 rounds. Haste is just a really good spell.
There are obviously instances where it isn't always the first spell you want to go to, but it's almost never a bad decision to cast.
Why of all spells would you want yo nerf haste... only summoner types care... this hurts martials more than anythinf (since they tend To be the primary rrecepiant)
Perhaps it is too good, but in all honesty I would rather it be a spell that makes teaming up with a bunch of martials into an effective tactic.
Haste enforces teamwork, and lets the martials become over-the-top-action stars. The caster gets to know they're getting a better return on their spell investment, everyone wins.
This is one of the few intersections between magic and combat that actually doesn't completely trample on martial character types. It creates a situation where casters and martials need each other to function at peak performance, and that's good for the game.
If anything, I would say that the whole of spellcasting should be more like haste vs. fireball.
Imagine if all of the most effective spells were best used on other characters, and allowed them such time in the spotlight.
Maybe instead of increasing spell level add a costly (but not too costly) component, making the choice to use a haste an important resource management decision? Assuming your party finds making a resource management fun instead of a chore.
I'd suggest making it a little less powerful if you want to house-rule it down. Is +1 to hit and +1 to reflex saves really necessary?
Maybe remove haste as a spell entirely and have it be something martial characters can do for themselves or provide for the party.
Reveille (ex) - A fighter of at least 5th level may, as a move action, direct the tactics and movement of all allies within 40' of him. This gives each ally the benefit of [HASTE BENEFITS] until he stops directing combat. This ability can be maintained as a free action each subsequent round. Fighter can do this [BARBARIAN RAGE ROUNDS] number of rounds a day.
Then the fight could help the party, including giving something to the summoner wizard that he couldn't provide for himself.
It could even be a scaling ability a la inspire courage but offering complimentary benefits and does so as an insight bonus.
Mass bull's strength might be competitive for summon-focused characters.Any summon-focused character without augment summoning probably isn't all that summon-focused.+2 hit/damage sounds like a lot in the beginning but it gets a lot less impressive as the levels go up. And it is a two feat investment for most folks.
Fortunately Herolab has made handling SM spells with all of the feats and trimmings, a LOT easier in the last update.
Mass Bulls Str is largely a useless spell because by the time you get it everyone has belt of giant str. In Paizo APs these belts become common place starting in Book 3. If you don't find on you can buy one.