Character build advice


Advice


I'm new the pathfinder and when we first started out game I was a druid gnome that focuses on charisma. As the game progresses I was leaning more and more towards the rouge class and tried to steal and bluff my way out of things.

I talked to the DM and he is willing to let me change my character. I want to play someone who has very high charisma,human" and duel weapons. It comes down to a fighter or rouge, the fighter can take hits but the rouge get slight of hand and can steal things.


I forgot to add it's core only.


The weapon of choice will be duel Rapier so I was wondering if their was a way to focus on fighting with Dex over strength.

Liberty's Edge

Well, first thing I want to point out is that there are only a few high charisma melee character builds in Core that fare very well. The Paladin is probably the best of them, with Bards coming in second. And even then, I wouldn't say high charisma, as in both of those cases charisma is usually a secondary, or even tertiary stat. But that might have been what you meant. In that case Paladin's are good high charisma two weapon fighting characters, even with just the core rulebook. But you don't seem to want to play a Paladin, sounds like you want to play the scoundrel. In which case might I suggest the rogue/ranger. Take a couple levels of rogue for the class skills, a few abilities like trapfinding, then switch over to the ranger for a higher BAB, better weapon and armor proficiencies, favored enemies, plus a combat style, which will let you play as a high strength 2 weapon fighter, which is really the only way to do good damage in Core. You unfortunately don't get much out of a high charisma with this build, except for a bit of a bonus on a couple skills, but that's true for almost every martial character. You still get 6+ skill points per level as a ranger, which should be enough to keep putting skill ranks into the most important skills, and should allow you to compete with a fighter build for being the primary, or secondary damage dealer in the group.

A couple questions though, what are you doing for stat arrangement, rolling/point buy? And are traits allowed similar to the Core Campaign in PFS?


Why not bard? Skillful, inspire courage is a competence bonus and not tied to perform skills so can be tactical advising if you don't like music. Arcane strike and inspire courage give some static bonuses.

Sorceror (or bard again) into Dragon Disciple can use that cha, if you're OK with claw claw bite instead of 2 weapons. Can mix with fighter barbarian or paladin if you don't like magic.

Edit: Dual rapiers is really tough to do, especially core-only. Also no dex to damage in core-only. +1 to Str-based ranger.

Liberty's Edge

Winterfox707 wrote:

The weapon of choice will be duel Rapier so I was wondering if their was a way to focus on fighting with Dex over strength.

You can use Dex to attack, but not for damage, at least in Core anyway. Also the rapier is an excellent weapon, but not for dual wielding. It's useable with weapon finesse, but is still a one handed weapon, which means increased penalties from wielding 2 of them as compared to say, shortswords.

Also, was going to suggest Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, but it's a little complicated to begin with. And as Cult of Vorg has mentioned, Bards are also good, just not so much with dual wielding. If you were to go with one rapier, that's actually the build I'd suggest as well.


We are using the point buy that is set at 20. As for combat I will not be the the one to deal a lot of damage because we have a barbarian and a paladin in the group. I would however like to hold my own should I be drawn into combat and RP wise the character will be the charismatic person who can lie his way out of a paper bag and should the shop keeper not give him a good deal on an item ... It may be missing the next day.

We also have a ranger and the duel rapier is because the character is from nobility. I don't plan on maxing out the charact but I just don't want to fall completely short at the end.


My only issue with the rouge is I don't know if I would like them in combat. In combat I just want to walk up and hit something and I don't want to think about positioning and dodging to get the rouge attack bonus.

Is their any way to effectively steal Or use slight of hand witout being a rouge?

Also we are new so I don't know much about multi class.


Have you thought about playing a slayer? in the advance class guide there are hybrid classes. and a Slayer is the hybrid of a Ranger and a Rogue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer


As was said, it doesn't sound like a Rogue is really for you if you want to be a 'real' warrior and not worry about positioning. With only Core it's best to go with something nice and martial for two weapons, though you could mix in a little Rogue.

The Ranger works well since you can get Two-Weapon fighting without needing lots of dexterity, but the Ranger's combat bonus is kind of situational. You could also try a Fighter who uses both strength and dexterity, and rely on the Fighter's inherent skills and extra feats to power through the penalties for double-rapier. You could also consider going with only one rapier and using something different in your off-hand - a knife will do less damage but make all your attacks more likely to hit, or a light shield could both protect you and let you make shield-bash attacks with your offhand.

Something like this for ability scores...
STR 14
DEX 15/17
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 14
...lets you use two weapons with finesse and a strong attack bonus, gives you some strength behind your attacks, and gives you some charisma, and it also lets you roleplay a slight lack of wisdom as a character flaw. With all the Fighter feats you get, taking two-weapon fighting stuff and weapon feats isn't hard to do, even if you take a couple levels of Rogue for skills and abilities.


Leonhart Steelmane wrote:

Have you thought about playing a slayer? in the advance class guide there are hybrid classes. and a Slayer is the hybrid of a Ranger and a Rogue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer

see core only early in thread.


A 3 lvl dip in Rogue is pretty good...you only give up 1pt of BA and gain evasion,+2d6 sneak and rogue talents...not to mention the archetype possibilities(if you don't want trapfinding).
Then Ranger the rest of the way.
I would reconsider your desire to ignore tactics and positioning...it's important for everyone not just the Rogue.


Tom S 820 wrote:
Leonhart Steelmane wrote:

Have you thought about playing a slayer? in the advance class guide there are hybrid classes. and a Slayer is the hybrid of a Ranger and a Rogue.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer

see core only early in thread.

my bad.


you can create a really cool rogue character with high charisma. Kind of a conman styled character, the only catch is the charisma isn't particularly useful to core rogues besides bluff checks.

actually, scratch what I said. high charisma could make a good faint and sneak combo. probably won't be a TWF guy though since you need a full round action for that.
and of cause, rogues have bluff, diplomacy, disguise and intimidate as class skills. meaning that with a high charisma, you'd make a fantastic face. you just wouldn't be a great combat guy compared to the fighter/barbarian/ranger etc.

my advice if you want to go rogue is to talk to your party because good teamwork is crucial to rouges. tell them that you'll gladly be the skill monkey of the group but tell them in advance in exchange for skills, you need a flanking buddy. and hopefully one of the characters will lap at the chance to be your knight in shining amour that distracts them from the shadows lol.

also, if you like all of the skills of a rogue and you want to be that charming face of the party. but you don't really like having to be tactical. you can just take one level in fighter, give your guy high strength over dex and decent armour. the ability evasion will be useless but I think its a fair trade off. and its fun to be able to sneak attack with a great sword haha.


Question about fighters bonus feats. Do you only get it on the even fighter level or even character level?

So far I have:

10 str
15 dex +2
14 con +2
12 int +1
10 wis
16 cha +3

Hp 10

I receive a +12 in bluff, +7 in deplomacy,+6 in slight of hand along with +7 in intimidate if my math is correct.

Took feats in dishonest and bluff skill.


So far he's a bard that will use one rapier and crossbow till later levels. I did not notice that bards get slight of hand. I plan to have more fun out of combat and just need a little bit of power so I can be on the front lines.

So at level 3 I would get a new feat correct? If so should I pick up weapon finesse?


Larkspire wrote:

A 3 lvl dip in Rogue is pretty good...you only give up 1pt of BA and gain evasion,+2d6 sneak and rogue talents...not to mention the archetype possibilities(if you don't want trapfinding).

Then Ranger the rest of the way.
I would reconsider your desire to ignore tactics and positioning...it's important for everyone not just the Rogue.

Sorry I ment more along the lines of he won't be running up behind the enemy for sneak attacks. He might take on a single enemy or so but leave the main fighting to the barbarian and paladin .... Althought the lady's in the group are a healing druid, ranger and sorceress so he wouldn't mind sitting in the back but he wouldn't want to be over shadowed by the other fighters.


Winterfox707 wrote:


So far I have:

10 str
15 dex +2
14 con +2
12 int +1
10 wis
16 cha +3

Just realize that with no strength bonus and middling dexterity, he's much, much better off staying back with a crossbow or spells than getting into a fight with a rapier where he does very little damage and is likely to get hit. Since I'm sure your GM isn't playing hardball it's not a big problem or anything, but be aware that those are extremely weak ability scores for melee combat by typical standards.


Does weapon finesse switch the strength and dex for hit or damage. I might have misread the wording.


Weapon finesse allows you to use Dex to hit with appropriate weapons. The feats that allow Dex to damage are not in the core rule book.


If you like those stats (if those are after the human +2 then it's only 19pts, you can have 11str... I'd consider dropping cha 1 or 2 to get more points for str 12 minimum) you definitely want Arcane Strike to get some damage, and Weapon Finesse to have some attack bonus.

The skill bonus feats are usually pretty weak, especially for bluff considering as a batd you'll be able to cast glibness eventually. Unless it's important to you to make blatantly impossible lies sound plausible asap, at the cost of being a terrible combatant.


Winterfox707 wrote:

Question about fighters bonus feats. Do you only get it on the even fighter level or even character level?

So far I have:

10 str
15 dex +2
14 con +2
12 int +1
10 wis
16 cha +3

Hp 10

I receive a +12 in bluff, +7 in deplomacy,+6 in slight of hand along with +7 in intimidate if my math is correct.

Took feats in dishonest and bluff skill.

the way it works a fighter gets a feat every level because you get a feat every odd level though normal character advancement, and you gain a bonus feat on every even level for being a fighter, plus an extra one on level one.

now, if you take an odd level dip in another class, say one level of rogue. it throws the numbers out of wack and so half the time you gain no feats and the other half you gain 2.

hope that makes sense.


So I will drop the rapier and just use a crossbow untill I can get two light repeating cross bows. Regarding the repeating crossbow, do I use all my bolts at once or once per round?

I was looking at feats and I would assume I have to take rapid reload and two handed fighting. Sadly it would lower my bluff bonus but make be spam the bolts later on.

Of I had quick draw and multiple crossbows could I core one and draw another loaded crossbow?


I would rather use firearms but I don't think they are in core unless I can convince the DM to treat them as exotic ranger weapons.

Also regarding the duel repeating cross now I didn't see that you need a free hand to reload it. And tips on how to effectively use duel repeating crossbows?


Winterfox707 wrote:

So I will drop the rapier and just use a crossbow untill I can get two light repeating cross bows. Regarding the repeating crossbow, do I use all my bolts at once or once per round?

I was looking at feats and I would assume I have to take rapid reload and two handed fighting. Sadly it would lower my bluff bonus but make be spam the bolts later on.

Of I had quick draw and multiple crossbows could I core one and draw another loaded crossbow?

dual wielding light repeating crossbows isn't a great idea. heres why.

you can fire them one handed but you fire them at a -2 penalty. and then, if you want to use a crossbow in each hand you'll need the two weapon fighting feat which would be another -2 -2 on top. so you'll be firing twice at -4 -4 each. and thats if you have the TWF feat. if you don't have it, don't even try it. i think its like something like -8-8 so it'll be like -10-10. you'll never hit lol.

this could be avoided by using two repeating hand crossbows instead of two repeating light crossbows. the repeating hand crossbows don't have a -2 penalty for firing them one handed. so with the TWF feat you'll be able to fire both at -2-2 which is the best you'll ever be able to get.

now thats only problem number 1, now onto problem number two. reload. you need a free hand to reload. even the repeating crossbow requires a free hand, even the repeating hand crossbow requires a free hand which, in my opinion makes it a completely pointless weapon. I think even paizo know this because it was published in ultimate equipment but its not on any of there websites. weird lol.

anyway, reloading a standard light crossbow is a move action, rapid reload reduces this to a free action. the benefit of a repeating light crossbow is you don't need to reload your crossbow after every shot, but you do still need to pull the lever to ready the next bolt, which is a free action. so if you don't have the rapid reload feet. the repeating crossbow is better, if you have it the regular one is better. since after every five shots, you don't spend a full round action to load another 5 bolts. although, you could argue that since you need an exotic weapon prof to use the repeating crossbow. its a bad weapon.

if you want to duel wield crossbows, this is the only way I can think of doing it and it requires your GM to be very lenient.

have two repeating hand crossbows. and twf. have them be magic items with the endless ammunition enchantment. so you never need to spend a full round action, per crossbow to reload and then spend how many standard actions it would be to put one away, then draw it, then put the other away etc.

now, in order to solve the needing a free hand problem. there is a spell called unseen servant which basically is a kind of 'force' under your control that can do minor things for you. open doors, pull out a chair, clean a glass etc. I personally would allow you to use it to pull the lever. its well within the abilities power, but some might consider this abusing the rules. you may be able to talk your gm into making this ability a +1 enchantment. which I think is very reasonable but it is a house rule, and if you guys aren't allowing house rules, it probably wouldn't fly.

now another problem... it aint cheap.

it would be 2 masterwork +4 weapons. and the base price for a repeating hand crossbow is 800.

so 800 base + 300 masterwork + the +4 enchantments x 2!! you're looking at 66,200 gold. which is a lot of money to what only amounts to 1 to 3 extra shots per round depening on whether you have improved and greater TWF. also its a hand crossbow so providing your character is medium sized only does 1d4.

so that would be an average of an extra 6 damage, providing each additional shot hit. it be way cheaper to just have one light crossbow and make it a flaming one for 9,100 gold. so you'd do the same damage, and you'd save 57,100 gold and 3 feats.

but, yeah, duel wielding crossbows are awesome and all the math in the world isn't gonna change that lol. anyway thats the only way I can see it happening.


Trying to do what you want and stay core only doesn't sound like a viable idea. Dual wielding without full BAB usually isn't very productive. Trying to build a rogue is often an exercise in frustration due to the class's limitations in BAB, lack of spells, and poor saving throws. Adding in two weapon fighting further trashes their ability to contribute damage unless you find a way to deliver touch attacks via the magic rogue talents, magic items, or similar. You don't want to worry about positioning, which is going to be a problem for lightly-armored characters. Slugging it out in melee is going to be a constant drain of healing resources as opposed to using missile or reach weapons and positioning for Attacks of Opportunity.

I'd drop all the dual wielding stuff and just go with a bard. You've already got 2 frontliners and I've seen no mention of support casters or battlefield controllers. Giving them free to hit bonuses and damage will make them love you and boost your own to hit/damage numbers, the skill list supports what you're after, and you get spells. Throw nets at people or trip them with your whip and a well-timed True Strike spell. The rapier stuff is cool, too, if you're pressed into combat.

You don't need to be a silly ass with a lute, which is the bard stereotype. You can be an inspiring guy who has just the right quote and words of encouragement at just the right time. The Saving Finale spell is pretty badass to throw out in a pinch, too, as are the various _____ Inspiration spells. Those are close range spells, though, and tend to work better with melee bards rather than archer bards, who often seem to be 10 or 20 feet to far away to use them when they're needed.


A Core Fighter 1/ Bard X could be quite reasonable going two-weapon with a rapier and light shield. If they use Inspire Courage and the spell Heroism they shouldn't have any more trouble hitting foes than a martial character. Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage can bring up damage. With a mithril breastplate and light shield and good dexterity they're resilient as well.

A Bard with a level of Fighter using rapier and shield also works very well for the noble character concept. They can "lead from the front" giving combat buffs and Haste and helping to flank and overwhelm with their allies.

I know you want major charisma, but dexterity is really important, so maybe:

Human: 14STR, 14/16DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 8WIS, 15CHA
(+1 CHA at level 4, +1 DEX at level 8,12)

1.Fighter. Weapon Finesse / +Fighter feat: Two Weapon Fighting / +Human feat: Improved Shield Bash
2.Bard.
3.Bard. Arcane Strike
4.Bard.
5.Bard. Quick Draw
6.Bard.
7.Bard. ???
8.Bard.
9.Bard. Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Arcane Strike gives all your hits extra damage and makes your attacks 'magic' for hurting things that are vulnerable to magic weapons. Improved Shield Bash means you can hit enemies with your shield and still defend with it at the same time. With the Quick Draw feat you can pull out a weapon as a free action, so you can throw javelins or other throwing weapons - made magic with Arcane Strike - when you want to, while you just hold your sword under your shield until you're done, since you can hold a weapon in the same hand as a light shield and it's a free action to put it in that hand or back into your main hand.

As others have said, Bards have no problem with skills, so you can talk and steal nicely.

You can use the open feat for whatever you want, whether it's being tougher or better with your weapons or better at a skill...

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I like the idea of mix of fighter/rogue. Alternate fighter and rogue levels until level 7, then go straight fighter. Get mithral breastplate and you can sleight of hand without penalty by level 5 (3rd fighter level).

I'd balance your stats to have a reasonable Strength. Something like
Str 14
Dex 15+2
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 13

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