As the OP said, this has been a problem since AD&D and has become worse ever since
Fixed that for you.
Fighters were a good class in AD&D.
When Spheres of Power gets on the PFSRD (sans the art!) it will be a beautiful day.
Anyway, what's this cluster**** about? Right, grognardism and "if it didn't happen to me it didn't happen" fallacy. Wizard can do everything, Fighter can only hit things. Wizard is a PC class, Fighter is a NPC class that isn't properly noted as such.
Also, if the Wizard gets his flying for free, so should the Fighter. Because they both have the same pool of funds to use, and the Fighter is required to spend all his on not being a useless waste of space, while the Wizard can spend his on whatever he wants.
Wizard doesn't get squat for free.
They pay for it with lack of armor, arcane spell failure, poor BAB, and by extension poor CMB/CMD, lower HP, and a baked in expensive resource system.
i just have to ask, have you looked at the druid?
Problem 2: This is the gear adventuring on its organic host rather than an Adventurer doing awesome s@&@.
King Arthur - I didn't realize his stories were about Excalibur and the scabbard.
Persius - I forgot that the story's really named, "This Greek kid with a winged horse, magic shield, and a magic sword.
I didn't realize that Iron Man wasn't about Tony Stark or that Adam Strange was about Rann tech.
A hero with magic items is still responsible for their use and it doesn't take away from the hero to have magical items.
yeah, i didn't know any of them had to go and pay for those either...
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Further, things like Excalibur and Mjolnir are class features--they're items, technically, but nobody else can use them. They're as close to intrinsic as you can get. Just look at, oh, I don't know, every point buy super hero RPG ever to see how that works in a game.
The Excalibur argument is funny to me because the only 1st party equivalent to that in Pathfinder is a Black Blade Magus. You know, a caster.
I found your system that balances casters with martials. It's called GURPs fantasy (or insert whatever generic point buy system that is out there).
How about after 7 hard fights, spaced about 30 minutes apart each, over the course of 1 day on dungeon trek. Because I've seen it. Many times at this point.Of course you are going to have problems.The disconnect is that Pathfinder makes it harder and harder to avoid such things as you level up. I've never seen a 6th+ level caster run out of spells, even in extra hard fights.
i've explained this, just because you have horrible casters doesn't mean that casters can't keep going well into he day.
Design Manager
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In my case I'd be fine if the game wasn't balanced so long as it made that clear and pointed out exactly how it was unbalanced.
Another issue of class imbalance being about more than just the party's ability to make sure everyone can contribute equally.
A 20th level Wizard whose magical alarms warned him that the party had entered his tower, giving him time to summon up a small army of elementals and demons and cast explosive warding spells on all the entrances to his sanctum, is the same CR as a level 20 Fighter warlord using the latrine whose mundane troops failed to detect the party infiltrating the camp.
That's right new GMs! The two scenarios presented above are both equally difficult and worth the exact same amount of experience. The book says so.
Note that the wizard in the airless space was perfectly fine if he had air bubble or an escape spell IN HIS SPELLBOOK...and had an arcane bond to recall it instantly to get himself out of there.
Note that stone shape and disintegrate had a very low chance of working...if he was more then 10' behind a wall in ANY direction, his odds of forming a path out were bad. Ethereal Jaunt or earthgliding were definitely a thing, tho.
==Aelryinth
Note that the wizard in the airless space was perfectly fine if he had air bubble or an escape spell IN HIS SPELLBOOK...and had an arcane bond to recall it instantly to get himself out of there.
Note that stone shape and disintegrate had a very low chance of working...if he was more then 10' behind a wall in ANY direction, his odds of forming a path out were bad. Ethereal Jaunt or earthgliding were definitely a thing, tho.
==Aelryinth
He could just have had some air crystals in his pocket for an emergency.
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Awakened by the arrogance of mortals the ichorous form of a being whose name kills those who even attempt it's utterance it yawns a twelve fold bellow of hate. Seven mad wizards claw out their eyes and rip off their genitalia in pure sexual celebration as cultists round the cosmos sacrifice themselves in anticipation of its rise.
The Caster-Martial Disparity God's innumerable all penetrating tentacles seek out and find the buckets of popcorn scattered about by the milling, mewling mob, and gorges itself on the salty, buttery contents. The sound of impossible crunching is enough to flay the very souls of those nearby.
i've explained this, just because you have horrible casters doesn't mean that casters can't keep going well into he day.How about after 7 hard fights, spaced about 30 minutes apart each, over the course of 1 day on dungeon trek. Because I've seen it. Many times at this point.Of course you are going to have problems.The disconnect is that Pathfinder makes it harder and harder to avoid such things as you level up. I've never seen a 6th+ level caster run out of spells, even in extra hard fights.
I actually have an anecdote for this. I had a game where the players warned me about the game's lethality, so I went in with a somewhat optimized Occultist Arcanist. At level 3, we had all of the following encounters:
A bunch of leech swarms in shallow water: Summon Monster II for a water elemental.
A giant scorpion suddenly ambushes us as we were spying on a evil barbarian: Charm Person on the barbarian (hadn't noticed us yet), then cheered him on as he finished the scorpion for us.
Negotiations break down and we fight formerly charmed barbarian and buddies with hostages, plus two more fighters: Summon Monster I for an eagle, Daze Barbarian.
A druid joins the battle with panther AC: The melee were engaging the druid, so I dismantled the panther with the cleric. Summon Monster I eagle remained, and color spray on the panther to stun it. The druid ran away to heal.
Two foot soldiers for the druid attack us as we are navigating his lair: Daze one, daze other, then finish with acid splash + focus. Wanted to conserve my spell slots at this point.
Second battle with fully healed druid and tome of mysterious evil: Summon Monster II for an earth elemental. Earth elemental flanked with paladin and brought him from full to begging on ground for mercy in one turn.
That was a level 3 arcanist (with max level 1 spells!) stretching my meager level 1 spell slots and exploit pool (and only three prepared level 1 spells) out over six encounters, with not really the best spell selections. Granted, this is an Arcanist rather than a wizard, though a wizard with specialization has even more spells at this level than I do. As level increases, the caster's spells can be stretched out even more - after all, it's not like Glitterdust or Silent Image is completely useless when you hit level 7.
If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game.
I like how "anime character" is a derogatory term in a game where building a robot ninja maid is entirely a viable concept.
Also amusing when perfectly boring normal western heroes accomplish similar feats in myhtology and fiction.
If any house rule or 3rd party product actually "fixed" anything than it would be a very popular product (or even added to as a pathfinder product like unchained), rather than just another option in the pack.
Last I checked Path of War was pretty damn popular for a 3pp. It's not perfect, but I can tell you given the bias against 3pp it makes zero difference.
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Yeah, tossing out Paizo classes and spells in favor of PoW/Psionics/SoP has significantly improved my Pathfinder experience. The spellcasters aren't wildly more powerful than their mundane counterparts, everyone has their niches, and everybody is happy.
But nope, too anime. Because that's a valid argument. One type of nerds getting hissy at another type of nerds isn't a hilariously hypocritical thing at all. Nope! Can I stop sarcasming now? My eyes are going to roll right out of my head.
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If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game.
I like how "anime character" is a derogatory term in a game where building a robot ninja maid is entirely a viable concept.
Also amusing when perfectly boring normal western heroes accomplish similar feats in myhtology and fiction.
^^This. If you want to play an anime character, you don't need a different game, they're already well supported by this one. Ever notice that ridiculous anime-esque sword the iconic Barbarian is wielding, or the fact that if if you replace "Wizard" with "Ninja" and "magic" with "chakra/ninjutsu" the game pretty much tells you how to play Naruto? Then there's your repeating crossbow-wielding monster hunters (Inquisitors), your sentai-style transforming warriors (synthesist summoners), normal people with green, blue, pink, or other unnaturally colored hair (gnomes), guys who can do 60 foot flying kicks (unchained monks), alien robots with nanites in their blood that allow them to do magic (androids and the android sorcerer bloodline)... I could really go on all day. It's hilarious when some grouch does their "my Pathfinder is anime free and I like it that way" rant, when Pathfinder has more anime in it than it does Lord of the Rings.
Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said. As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products, although some are real gems.If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game.
I like how "anime character" is a derogatory term in a game where building a robot ninja maid is entirely a viable concept.
Also amusing when perfectly boring normal western heroes accomplish similar feats in myhtology and fiction.
Last I checked Path of War was pretty damn popular for a 3pp. It's not perfect, but I can tell you given the bias against 3pp it makes zero difference.
the number of animes that take place in Europe during medieval time with mages and such really makes this post annoying to me.
also yeah most 3PP i've seen if unbalanced... in that it's generally weaker than the CRB.
DC 30 climb check to climb a paper wall, just saying, can't get more anime than that.
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Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said. As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products, although some are real gems.If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game.
I like how "anime character" is a derogatory term in a game where building a robot ninja maid is entirely a viable concept.
Also amusing when perfectly boring normal western heroes accomplish similar feats in myhtology and fiction.
Last I checked Path of War was pretty damn popular for a 3pp. It's not perfect, but I can tell you given the bias against 3pp it makes zero difference.
Who did you poll to determine "universally regarded?"
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You have to use 3 different sources that significantly change the core game to make it close to what you want, than why are you even playing Pathfinder? Well I guess you are not actually...Yeah, tossing out Paizo classes and spells in favor of PoW/Psionics/SoP has significantly improved my Pathfinder experience. The spellcasters aren't wildly more powerful than their mundane counterparts, everyone has their niches, and everybody is happy.
But nope, too anime. Because that's a valid argument. One type of nerds getting hissy at another type of nerds isn't a hilariously hypocritical thing at all. Nope! Can I stop sarcasming now? My eyes are going to roll right out of my head.
I am, actually. I just don't consider it fair or reasonable that one guy can play the world-altering magic fountain while the other gets stuck swinging a stick his whole career. So EVERYONE in the games I play is effective, fun and has lots of narrative power.
This is a pretty common trick of you and your ilk: you'll claim anyone who isn't playing the same way as you isn't playing the same game. And to that, I shall remind you that you do not get to decide how anyone else should be playing the game.
But I'm talking to a wall, really. You wouldn't be so intent to disparage how I play PF if you actually intended to have a civil conversation on the subject.
You have to use 3 different sources that significantly change the core game to make it close to what you want, than why are you even playing Pathfinder? Well I guess you are not actually...Yeah, tossing out Paizo classes and spells in favor of PoW/Psionics/SoP has significantly improved my Pathfinder experience. The spellcasters aren't wildly more powerful than their mundane counterparts, everyone has their niches, and everybody is happy.
But nope, too anime. Because that's a valid argument. One type of nerds getting hissy at another type of nerds isn't a hilariously hypocritical thing at all. Nope! Can I stop sarcasming now? My eyes are going to roll right out of my head.
I am, actually. I just don't consider it fair or reasonable that one guy can play the world-altering magic fountain while the other gets stuck swinging a stick his whole career. So EVERYONE in the games I play is effective, fun and has lots of narrative power.
This is a pretty common trick of you and your ilk: you'll claim anyone who isn't playing the same way as you isn't playing the same game. And to that, I shall remind you that you do not get to decide how anyone else should be playing the game.
But I'm talking to a wall, really. You wouldn't be so intent to disparage how I play PF if you actually intended to have a civil conversation on the subject.
to be clear what you describe is known as the no true scottsman fallacy.
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Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said.
Unless it's an arcane caster, right? Or a gnome, or an android, or a barbarian, or a summoner....
As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products
Mostly by ignorant old grognards who haven't even looked at 3pp materials in 2 or more editions. Ultimate Psionics is lauded for being an amazingly well balanced alternative to traditional casting dynamics, as is Spheres of Power. The writers for Legendary Games are also some of the most prolific freelancers for Paizo, and have written nearly as much Paizo-published crunch as the core design team. The main writer/owner/publisher for Rogue Genius Games is also the head of two of Paizo's product lines. Mark Seifter was a 3pp designer before being hired by Paizo as part of their core design team. Will McCardell's name can be found in an equal number of Paizo and 3pp products. Most of the core design team have their own 3pp lines. Golarion itself is a conglomeration of materials from various homebrewed projects the design team had been using back when Paizo was just a 3pp for Dungeons and Dragons. Pathfinder has an amazing community of designers whose quality of work is tested and continually improved by both a ready reviewing system right here on this website, and the work of amazing reviewers like Thilo at endzeitgeist.com who constantly push the 3pp community to more innovative heights.
Not only that, Paizo has frequently borrowed 3pp materials under the OGL for use in their own products, for example, using materials from Dreamscarred Press in their Dragon's Demand module. Jason Buhlman and Erik Mona have both publicly endorsed Dreamscarred's Ultimate Psionics as the go to sourcebook for psionics, and if I recall correctly, Owen KC Stephens also helped develop Drop Dead Studio's amazing Spheres of Power.although some are real gems.
This is true.
I have played d20 D&D since it came out and AD&D before then, with short term group, in campaigns that last for years, with newbies, power gamers, grognards, and mixed groups. I have seen the power difference between "wizards" and "fighters" at high level and at low, both as the player of both and DM to both. From all of this I have to say that D&D (now Pathfinder) is what it is, always has been and should always be. If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game. If you however want them to hold off a dragon with nothing but some plate armor and an enchanted sword while the cleric calls the blessing of the Gods, the wizard lobs fireballs while flying, and the rogue snipes from the shadows than you'll want to play Pathfinder (the most popular, well supported RPG in the world). This game is not developed and written by idiot monkeys, but professionals that love this game and literally work to make it as great as they can. If any house rule or 3rd party product actually "fixed" anything than it would be a very popular product (or even added to as a pathfinder product like unchained), rather than just another option in the pack. But that has not happened and it wont, because the majority of players like the difference between the classes (or don't care) other than the vocal group on the internet who believe that the difference between "fighters" and "wizards" is something that needs to be fixed.
This is my game, go elsewhere if you believe that D&D/Pathfinder should be changed for your pleasure.
Wow...The "get off my lawn" argument! lol...I've been playing since first edition myself...as have many people here...doesn't really give you extra cred or anything. Over the years I have watched the game evolve...so obviously, there's room for improvement.
Pathfinder was not handed down from heaven carved on stone tablets....it's part of an ongoing development.Don't you think there's room for improvement?
Pretending there's no disparity doesn't help the cause. I want martials to be martial too...so it's more a matter of how best to fix the problem, not just pretend it doesn't exist.
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What?! Don't you know, Larkspire?
Playing a completely different game with completely different rules 30 years ago automatically and indisputably makes you an authority in Pathfinder rules and system mastery... As well as in every other RPG published from 1970 to the end of times!
Makes total sense...
:P
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The entire Pathfinder fan base obviously.Who did you poll to determine "universally regarded?"Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said. As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products, although some are real gems.If you want "fighters" to cut mountains in half, jump for miles, or to be an anime character play a different game.
I like how "anime character" is a derogatory term in a game where building a robot ninja maid is entirely a viable concept.
Also amusing when perfectly boring normal western heroes accomplish similar feats in myhtology and fiction.
Last I checked Path of War was pretty damn popular for a 3pp. It's not perfect, but I can tell you given the bias against 3pp it makes zero difference.
Right, everyone pack it up. Flag it. Tag it. We're done here.
Good to know anybody that uses any kind of houserule, or restricts or adds any options is not playing Pathfinder.
Good to know anybody that uses any kind of houserule, or restricts or adds any options is not playing Pathfinder.
Ahem!
Any kind of houserule or restriction/addition not-shared by Ghostswap!
Good to know anybody that uses any kind of houserule, or restricts or adds any options is not playing Pathfinder.
Yeah, like all of those PFS posers...
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Actually I completely agree with you on everything you just said. Play the game how you want, just do not think that the game has to change to fit your own preferences.
People don't want the game to change, they just want classes that are actually designed to play the same game. That could be by powering up martials (difficult, because there's really only two, maybe three, truly deficient martial classes), or by powering down casters. Spheres of Power from Drop Dead Studios is lauded because it puts casters on similar progressions to martials, where they only get stronger in a certain type of magic by dedicating fixed resources to it, and one of the reasons that Ultimate Psionics is well known for being one of the top 3pp products out there is that it presents a strong mix of classes from non-casters to full "casters" who are well balanced to each other, but also completely unique and original, without any of the "4E-ness" all the anti-balance doomsayers would have you believe is inevitable.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd be happy if Fighters even just compared as favorably to casters as they did in the first few editions of the game, where it was the Fighter who could muscle his way through the storm of beholder eye beams and strike down the beast, or punch out its main eye so the wizard could safely cast. Why on earth the Fighter was relegated to 2 bad saves and no skills to speak of back in 3.0, I may never fully understand, but I do know, from the game's own history, that it's possible to make Fighters and Wizards who both belong in the same universe at all levels of play.
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But... but I like anime ;_;I do, too, Snorb. What shows are you watching this season?
None, actually. I've been trying to catch up on Golgo 13, and I gave up 11 episodes into Sailor Moon Crystal. I should go back into my Hulu account and go check out what I've been missing.
...When I'm not working on Open Skies.
...Or figuring out how to make Cress Albane's sword techs into PRPG fighter abilities.
Rozen Maiden i am.finishing now it is awesome!!!
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The entire Pathfinder fan base obviously.Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said. As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products, although some are real gems.Who did you poll to determine "universally regarded?"
Minus the thousand some odd players who bought Ultimate Psionics, the hundreds of players who bought other Dreamscarred products, the hundreds of people who bought the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin Press, or the several hundred who bought the Cerulean Seas Campaign Setting from Alluria Press....
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But... but I like anime ;_;I do, too, Snorb. What shows are you watching this season?None, actually. I've been trying to catch up on Golgo 13, and I gave up 11 episodes into Sailor Moon Crystal. I should go back into my Hulu account and go check out what I've been missing.
...When I'm not working on Open Skies.
...Or figuring out how to make Cress Albane's sword techs into PRPG fighter abilities.
I dropped Crystal roughly around the same time. It's better than I did as a young guy when it was airing on Cartoon Network, at least. I've grown to appreciate magical girl shows a lot since then, but Crystal is just... blegh.
Rozen Maiden i am.finishing now it is awesome!!!
The newer one? Or the older ones?
Minus the thousand some odd players who bought Ultimate Psionics, the hundreds of players who bought other Dreamscarred products, the hundreds of people who bought the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin Press, or the several hundred who bought the Cerulean Seas Campaign Setting from Alluria Press....The entire Pathfinder fan base obviously.Well "anime characters" is derogatory because Pathfinder is not anime, just like it is not science fiction or western. Pathfinder supports those genres but it is a terrible idea to model the core mechanics on them, as I said. As to "3PP" they are almost universally regarded as unbalanced compared to pathfinder products, although some are real gems.Who did you poll to determine "universally regarded?"
But Ssalarn, weren't you aware that his own personal anecdotal evidence is more damning than any hard physical evidence you could ever provide?
As to anime, everyone who likes D&D should give Overlord a watch. Want to watch a person from our world who accidentally became a Lich completely wing being an Overlord? Well there ya go.
Rozen Maiden is an older one at least 8 or so years old. But it does have Flower Topped Hamburgers. And DESU!
EDIT: The best anime is Legend of Galactic Heroes. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it - it's 100+ episodes of absolute greatness.
People don't want the game to change, they just want classes that are actually designed to play the same game. That could be by powering up martials (difficult, because there's really only two, maybe three, truly deficient martial classes), or by powering down casters.
I actually disagree, and would like to propose another system: a game where the high tiers (full casters) and mid tiers (Path of War, Sphere of Power, half-casters, and some of the T4 classes) exists in tandem.
Casters are, unfortunately, one of the main staples of D&D. Some of us, even knowing that there is an imbalance between the two, enjoy the sheer amount of power that spells give us, and want the class to continue to exist because we like our Dominate Persons or our Ethereal Jaunts. Similarly, a lot of the most experienced players on GitP still play lower-tier classes because they enjoy doing so, even though they are perfectly aware of how world-shattering magic can be.
Spheres of Power is a great system. It is balanced and is a boon for people who like playing gishes, or who are okay with magical martials (and I will be getting it for that purpose; mage-knights are awesome). However, the options given by the spheres is still limited just due to the sheer versatility of spells, and some favorite options that spellcasters love are just not possible under the system. That's going to give you a ton of pushback in and of itself, with backlash from people who are used to the wizard's power (and want them to remain versatile).
Yes, I know I'm arguing for keeping imbalance here, but I am an ardent believer of the Snowbluff Principle and don't think it would be wise to change the system entirely. Instead, I think it would be better to give people options, in the same way that the latter days of 3.5 brought us such classes as Binder, Beguiler, and the ToB classes. That way, people who want a balanced game can stick to using Spheres of Power and whatnot, while people who just want the 3.5 feel can stick to their regular overpowered wizards.