druid, then focus on wildshaping perhaps?
Have you looked into running a melee style bard, inquisitor, or even a battle-oriented oracle?
For the Bard, I might look at using a whip. They get the proficiency for free, and you can melee without being in as much danger. You will have plenty of buffs and spells if you save them for your main encounters.
The Magus is something where you will tend to focus on touch attack spells. Though it is not a difficult class, you might be better off skipping over this because of your current party. They have plenty of damage, but no utility.
Oracle will allow you to fill multiple roles, if you so choose, but will come in more difficult and be somewhat similar to the cleric (if you are not careful).
Before jumping on the Antipaladin, make sure your GM is okay with it. The antipaladin is meant to be very evil and is intended for that category of "too evil".
I haven't played Warpriest yet, but it might be what you are looking for. The class has plenty of martial boosting to get you into melee while still having enough magic to backup the party. The inquisitor will scratch that the same itch; just differently. Neither seem too unwieldy for a newer player.
Another option to look into might be druid. At low to mid levels, Druids are great in melee, and then their magic will take care of most of what you could ever need and be just as fun as wizards at higher levels.
Paladin or ranger for start. Your primary focus is melee with a secondary spell casting ability.
Druid is complex with wild shaping and the companion.
Paladin or ranger for start. Your primary focus is melee with a secondary spell casting ability.
Druid is complex with wild shaping and the companion.
well i feel like he WANTS to be a full caster, but wants to not be reliant on spells in combat. druid fits this well, and if he's willing to learn there's plenty of guides to help him.
|
You want Divine casting:
Warpriest, battle cleric build, or inquisitor.
If you want arcane:
Magus, bloodrager, or bard will work.
The group lacks both a buffer (arm) or a control magic user (anvil).
You group has plenty of damage to put out and damage is not needed as much.
My suggestion:
Evangelist cleric that focuses on summoning or enchantment magic. You can buff with bless, prayer, and inspire courge. And then use your spells to help control the incoming damage. If you go summoning you will put out decent damage with your monsters.
But if you build 4 damage dealers with little magic...be prepared to reroll several times.
The big question is "how much spellcasting, and what kind?" - do you mean just healing and supporting allies, or do you mean throwing out spells to control the battlefield? Support spells don't need a high ability score, so you can be a strong melee type with support spells easily enough. Spells that control the enemy need high mental stats, so it's much tougher to do that and also fight well - it's possible, but difficult without certain tricks. Besides that,
Druid is great but reliant on Wildshape for combat effectiveness.
Magus is great for blending some spells with melee combat, but is typically focused on that rather than throwing spells alone.
Bard is a great combatant and party-buffer, but again with a limited spellcasting ability.
The Warpriest is a very effective fighter and has some support.
The Inquisitor is, again, very effective at fighting, with some support.
Things like Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight can be effective at both, but they're complicated to do well and often start slowly.
Cleric and Oracle are full casters that can be amazing in melee if done right, while also being powerful support. There are ways for them to be quite dangerous with both melee and offensive spells, but they're either kind of complicated, or very complicated...
You have 3 strong martial classes. I recommend a group buffer, like a bard, since you don't particularly like your cleric. I find whip bards lose out too much past lvl 7 or so, and if you want someone more ranged a shortbow bard can be effective. Rapier bard can be fun, especially if all you need to be is a flanking buddy.
Alternatively, if you want to spend more time attacking, Inquisitor is a lot of fun and highly effective once they get bane, and will provide you with the out of combat spells you need.
I would suggest a sorcerer and then going dragon disciple.
You will not be a super heavy melee charter like the rest of your team, however you could deliver powerful touch attack with a higher than average STR score.
Take the time to read the pre-requisite to be a dragon disciple:
Race: Any non-dragon. -> easy
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks. -> long story short going to need at least 5 levels before taking a level in dragon disciple.
Languages: Draconic. -> easy to get
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline. -> you will have to be a dragon bloodline sorcerer
My usual build is to go for Blue dragon bloodline -> invest in shocking grasp, use your bloodline power to grow claws to go in melee against light targets, use incredible spells and breath weapon against anything else. Transform into a dragon when you really want to impress the gallery.
oracle isn't too bad, spells known mechanics are easier to deal with than managing your spell book. lore oracle for side step mystery if you want to be in melee a bunch and not be naturey. :P
I recommend an arcanist. Their spellcasting is a bit more newbie friendly than a wizard and you get special abilities that give you rather useful blasts.
I never recommend a spontaneous spellcaster (like a bard) for a newbie. I had so many problems with new players screwing themselves by picking bad spells to learn. If a wizard prepares the wrong spells, he's useless for a day. If a sorcerer learns the wrong spells, he's useless until he levels up.
Gish classes can be problematic because they require you to fine tune your ability scores just right.
I love magi, but they require deep understanding of how the action economy works.
A big help for bards from one of the best can be found here. (Treatmonk's bard guide).
For a more copy and paste of a non-whip bard, here is a sample I made. Make sure you check with your GM about what resources are allowed. Also, if he is more experienced, as for his input in helping to decide on feats, spells, and maybe archetypes that will be useful for your current campaign. Most GMs are willing to tell their newer members what will help them for the current game in order to help them learn to rationalize their character builds.
i feel arcanist is too hard to understand as your start, you need to know spontaneous casting and normal casting, and what arcanist does with both.
I think of arcanists running similar to Wizards, but with some new tricks. If you are looking for something where you don't rely solely on spells in combat, I would skip it over for now.
Or should I really just make a support Cleric? Anyway, I'm not too sure if I would be happy with just standing anywhere and blessing my party. And probably that also wouldn't fit my idea of making a character who's a little evil and crazy.
Evangelist of Gorum. You buff your party like a Bard, preaching death and destruction and battle while cutting down foes with a greatsword. If you want to get fancy, you can even cross it with a level of Urban Barbarian and take the Rage subdomain, so that you're raging with a greatsword while 'preaching'. You can still heal and bless and all that, but your true purpose is serving the god of battle by splitting heads, and encouraging others to do the same.
Oracle can also be great for melee and support.
Either way, the key is having a good strength score and using the Divine Favor spell (and taking the Fate's Favored trait to make it even better). With Divine Favor (or later Divine Power) you're essentially a full-on martial character for the duration.
If you use a Nature, Lore or Lunar Oracle you can pull a trick where you beef up your strength and charisma at the cost of your dexterity, making your melee and offensive spells both good, but that's a bit more complex.
I would probably avoid trying to build a melee-ing wizard or arcanist or what-not if you're new to this stuff, since those classes are terrible at fighting and die easily unless you really start to optimize options. Still, if you want an arcane melee type, there are options - Dragon Disciple can be really great among other things.
|
|
Perhaps a sorcerer (dragonic) into Dragon Disciple. Your main stats being str, and then followed by cha. Can melee pretty pretty well with the rest of them, but can also stay back spell slinging if desired.
There is also the Eldrich Knight, Full BAB, mostly Full Spellcasting. Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldrich Knight x could work out well in your favor.
Magus could work out well, but would often be in the thick of things.
A Magus is for the guy who always wants to be in the middle of melee, swinging is sword and spellcasting damage spells (usually). An Eldrich Knight is good for the Wizard who wants to enhance his fighting ability and still cast fairly effectively, it sounds like you are looking for the later.
@BadBird: How is the Evangelist of Gorum played? Sounds pretty badass.
Evangelist is a Cleric Archetype who specializes in buffing himself and his party with preaching. It's a great way to build a melee Cleric, since you get an extra boost to your fighting ability along with the rest of your party. You can do it in all sorts of ways - I've got an Evangelist Cleric with a level of Monk who is a swordsman without armor, for example - but it's easy to build it as a classic heavy-metal holy-warrior who also happens to have a command of magic.
Arcanist is newer so there isn't as much help available in the style of guides and such. It is also pretty much 'just a caster' type class. some people like it better than wizard or sorc, but it plays a lot like both.
The combination of to very disparate roles that it sounds like you want is certainly possible, but can be kinda difficult for the new player.
Druids, magi, eldritch night, dragon disciple do this pretty well. But they aren't the easiest to learn. On the other hand it isn't impossible. How much effort do you want to put in and are there more experienced people at the table that can help?
Personally, I think a oracle or cleric of some sort might be your best bet. Medium armor, medium BaB, medium HD, ways to get decent weapons, as well as full caster. Not as squishy as the sorcerer/wizard/arcanist.
Most people feel like the divine spells are (in general) not as powerful on average as the arcane spells. But there are still some real gems in the list. Hold person and silence are simple and can be extremely effective. Also they have some of the best buffs around. Both personal buffs and group buffs.
A common tactic for a battle cleric/oracle is throw out a party buff, then cast a personal buff, then wade into melee to bash whatever isn't dead yet.
A battle bard can also be a good choice. But I think they are a bit more difficult to build and play (but not as difficult as magi or druids). But you can usually get lots of helpful suggestions on the build and even how to play anything here in the forums.
.
.
However; if you are just worried about running out of spells, don't worry about it too much. That is mostly just a low level occurrence. once you get to the mid levels, any full caster has enough spells for several each encounter plus some utilities. At higher levels, you actually have to work pretty hard to use them all up.
.
.
You all helped me a lot so far.
So far I'm stucked with Bard, Inquisitor and Oracle. Which one got the best mixture of offense and support (fitting into my party) and how should I build him then?
@DM-DR: Your build and the guide helped a lot. :)
@BadBird: How is the Evangelist of Gorum played? Sounds pretty badass.
PS: I don't insist on going into melee as long as I'm able to do something else than spellcasting.
I would not consider the inquisitor as good at support. They don't get all that many spells each day and most of them are not the to buff the whole party variety. Not impossible, but not the best at it. They can fight decently and have enhancements to lots of useful skills.
The other 2 is a matter of emphasis and preference. The bard is usually regarded as the king of support, though the oracle isn't bad at it either. Oracle depending upon the build can pretty easily be incredibly offense oriented.
Honestly, there are a million good to great ways to build these types of characters. Tell us what the character is like - what is his motivation? What's his fighting style? What's his armor? What are his social skills?
The great thing about a system as large and complex as this is that you can match a character concept to what you want to be able to do in very customized ways. I said 'Evangelist of Gorum' because you want a little crazy - so I said "OK, crazy for battle. Raging, preaching Gorumite!"
I'd say oracle or bard, depending on the flavor you enjoy, inquisitor is more debuff or buff yourself.
|
|
Bards can be very good, and very great in your party as well.
You may want to consider a more melee oriented combat bard such as the Arcane Duelist. If your group needs a party "face" then i would recommend sticking to the base bard with the versatile performance ability and using the skills and knowledge skill boosts. Your party might need a guy like that? I wouldn't recommend an archetype that drops inspire courage, especially in your physical damage group party.
A bard starting with 18str, 14 cha would be a great melee oriented bard. May want to pick up feats like toughness and great fortitude to make up for your weak points, even if the feats aren't "flashy".
If your party is currently lacking an archer, then go with more dex and be an archer. Bards can be good at that too. Hint: Arcane strike works with bows.
Stick with the buffing/curing/support spells, your DC's won't be great.
Spells like remove fear, feather fall cure light wounds for 1stlevel. **Heroism**, Mirror Image for 2nd level. **Haste**, Dispel Magic for 3rd. Dimension Door / Freedom Of Movement for 4th.
Here's an example of a fairly simple Gorum Evangelist with a twist of Controlled Rage:
Human: 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
Urban Barbarian 1/ Evangelist Cleric of Gorum X
Domain: Destruction;Rage
1(Urban Barbarian). Medium Armor Proficiency / +Human Bonus Feat: Heavy Armor Proficiency
2(Evangelist from now on).
3.Extra Rage
5.Power Attack
...and so on. More Extra Rage if you need more, and whatever else you want really. Once you go into a Controlled Rage, you're a monster with a greatsword but you can't cast spells anymore. This can be very useful when you don't want to be stuck as the 'hey, come heal me' Cleric - you're feeding the party combat buffs and smashing skulls with the best of them, so they can wait until the last body drops for their band-aid.
Edit: Nevermind, I just read your character description... not really a Barbvangelist. Oh well, moving on...
As BadBird says, We need a whole lot more specifics before we can realistically suggest a build. It is often better to focus first on what you want to do as specifically as possible, well before even looking at the classes.
Ex1
Medium or heavy armor, but no shield.
uses a big brutal two-handed weapon in combat.
Always casts a personal (wants the glory himself rather than helping the whole party) buff spell before getting into the combat himself.
Needs to be good at talking with others.
Ex2
light armor, no shield
uses a reach weapon to hit people from behind the main line to help out but isn't a major combatant himself
Casts a few party buffs usually before striking with weapon.
Doesn't do the talking but tries to determine who is lying
Ex3
Sneaky bastard
casts a spell to buff himself, then another on the enemy to make it less able to fight.
knows the weaknesses of nearly any creature
All of those are a mix of melee and casting. I would build each of them completely differently.
When I'm helping someone with a new build, I usually start with 4 questions.
1) What is your primary roll in combat or what is the thing you most often want to be doing? (Whacking with a club, tripping the opposition, casting battle field control spells, shooting a bow, buffing the party, casting SoD (save or die) spells, blasing with direct damage spells, etc...)
2) What is your secondary roll in combat when the primary doesn't work or isn't appropriate/helpful?
3) What is your primary role out side of combat? (Talking to NPC's, sneaking, knowledge skills, tracking, catching the liars, etc...)
4) What is your secondary role outside of combat when the primary doesn't work or isn't appropriate/helpful?
I liked the idea of playing a Samurai. Unfortunately my team needs a support. I want to play a character who is using medium or heavy armor but also relys on his reflexes to not get hit.
Fighting style? Not just charing into the battle. My character should be someone who has trained a lot and got perfection in what he is doing. He fights with elegance and not just brutality. I don't care if I'm melee or ranged (but I don't like bow; maybe a whip would fit my needs?).I want somebody who can be deadly but also someone who uses his tactical instincs to control the battle and to determine the flow of the battle (and not someone who just fights for himself).
Do you prefer 'very wise, maybe a bit rough personally' or 'very charismatic, maybe a bit unwise'?
I would still potentially say Evangelist since it combines the best thing about the Bard with full Cleric casting and can be themed a million ways; from what you're describing it seems like the wisdom orientation of the Cleric goes better with the character than the charisma-focused Bard or Oracle.
Instead of preaching death and destruction to buff the party, you could have an Evangelist who 'preaches' tactics in battle, commanding the flow of battle as it unfolds to give himself and his allies a combat bonus. It seems like an Evangelist of Shizuru would be ideal for you - great Domains, katana proficiency, samurai flavor - but Shizuru is Lawful Good, so you would have to balance your 'dark side' with remaining at least Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good. Still, Lawful Neutral can get away with a lot if their 'highest law' is loyalty and victory...
Just in terms of fun, tactics and party/enemy control... who is better suited: Evangelist or Controller Oracle?
Well the controller Oracle can be very effective with the right Oracle Mystery, but personally I find it boring to just control and support with a limited spell selection all the time. The great thing about the Evangelist is that it steals the Bard's ability to support while doing something else at the same time. I really like Oracle for doing complex melee-and-spells stuff, but Evangelist is damn powerful and can't help but be at least a decent combatant unless you do something wrong.
I atually prefer being wise over being charismatic. That also would be a point towards the Evangelist, right? How do I build him?
Shizuru has access to the Glory;Heroism subdomain, which gets you the excellent Heroism combat buff spell by level 5 (as you go up levels, you can fill your higher domain slots with more Heroism so that you have more castings per day). Eventually it also gives you the ability to give your whole party Heroism for a short time, but that comes later. By the time you have Evangelist at level 7, you can start your 'performance' as a move action and cast a spell on the same first turn of battle. The fact that you can wield a katana in either one or two hands is also really, really good for melee.
Since you have Heroism, the Bard's Inspire Courage performance, and the spell Divine Favor, you're able to improve your melee abilities to extreme levels. This means that if you want to pick ability scores that balance spell-power with melee, you can get away with it more easily. The Dual Talent alternate Human option is useful for that too.
Something like...
STR15/17, DEX12, CON14, INT10, WIS15/17, CHA9. STR+1 at level4, WIS+1 at level 8.
...will make you perfectly capable with both melee and spell-DC (how tough spells are to resist).
Shizuru also has a great supernatural touch power with the Repose Domain that you can use in combat, but it's more complicated. Heroism is just 100% pure combat advantage for you and the party.
Multiclassing one level of something else can also be handy - Evangelist only gets light armor, so you can get better armor and an extra feat with a level of Fighter, for example.
The build I mentioned with a level of Monk tacked on to Evangelist can lead to a 'sword saint' kind of thing, where you can eventually wield a katana in a flurry of attacks like a Monk, while using a light/medium armor or using your wisdom as armor instead. There's an option to get parry-and-riposte technique as well.
A level of Swashbuckler would let you base your melee on high dexterity instead of strength, wielding a katana with finesse and wearing minimal armor - also with parry-and-riposte.
There are some really cool options in multiclassing, but it gets a little more complicated, and you do have to drop one level of your spellcasting and Evangelist powers.
|
|
My advice is: It looks like your party needs a cha guy. To be the party "face" and it also looks like your knowledge skills are lacking.
Correct me if I am wrong with your party (barb, ranger, knight)
A melee oriented Bard slides in and fills in the gaps you are lacking, with the role you want.
Human
15pt buy
str 17(15+2), dex 14, con 12, int 10, wis 7, cha 14
20pt buy
str 18(16+2), dex 14, con 12, int 12, wis 7, cha 14
Suggested feats: Arcane Strike/toughness/dodge/improved inititive/power attack/ great fortitude. Perhaps in that order.
versatile preformance (Keyboard) at level 2 will give you your diplomacy/intimidate
versatile preformance (singing) at level 6 will give you sense motive/bluff
Both of these will key off those respective perform skills, keep them maxed. Put the rest of your skill points in knowledge or other areas where you see fit.
Spells like remove fear/feather fall/cure can really be a boon.
Example of how you support: Level 7 you could heroism the whole party. When a difficult battle starts, start with inspire courage (move action), and cast haste (standard action). Congraduations, you just gave the entire group +5 to hit (+1 haste, +2 heroism, +2 inspire) and +2 damage, with an extra attack. Then you start to brawl things yourself.
Is there a way of playing my Cleric/Evangelist/Oracle with a whip?
I know bards play with whips sometimes. But if the Evangelist is better, why not play one with whip?
The whip is an interesting control/combat weapon. Really, to use a whip for tripping and controlling and that sort of thing with a high degree of success requires you to take a bunch of extra feats and also be solid on combat skills, so a whip-focused Cleric or Oracle pretty much has to be a specialist - of course, you can't cast spells while wielding a whip anyhow, so you might as well specialize. It's also a little painful to get going for a Cleric/Oracle, since the feats in question tend to have BAB requirements, and you aren't getting a ton of feats.
This might be overwhelming, yet APG summoner. Caution - you might step on the other players toes with that one. Building a combat machine eidolon is almost too easy, and at early levels might out perform some of the fighting PCs, so be careful.
The summoner is certainly no tank, yet can summon creatures and use an eidolon to more than make up for it. The only downside to your group is no one seems to be a class that might have use magic device, nor does it have healing spells.
You may want to buy up use magic device skill and invest in cure light wound wands, no matter what class you play. Fighting PCs are great, yet only as long as their hit points are positive numbers. Someone will need to heal the party after the fight.
Skald is also a good option to look into - a martial bard type.
why not take a shaman of battle?
|
|
@ BadBird:
That sounds good. But if I invest a level into the Fighter and wear a medium or heavy armor, don't I get a penalty when casting spells?
Also, that may sound stupid, but why can't I cast spells while wielding a whip?@ Corwin Illum:
What kind of weapon would you suggest for that build?@KestrelZ:
Summoner seems to be nice. But I guess it would be too difficult for now. Since our whole party is pretty new to Pathfinder, controlling an additional NPC (and I think you need to control the summoned monster) would be too confusing.
Longspear or Rapier/shield. Longspear could be good for you with its reach and you certainly have the strength to make use of 1.5x str. With the reach, could add to your "controlling the battlefield" capacity. Also recommend a silver heavy mace backup weapon. There is no reason you can't have all these weapons (longspear, rapier, heavy mace, [throw in a dagger and a few javelins for ranged combat]) and also have a heavy shield. See what you like best.
For armor you start with a chain shirt, get elven chain as soon as you are able. For you, essentially elven chain gives you medium armor profiency and is worth the 1k compared to a regular mithral breastplate.
Here's a sample straight Evangelist of Shizuru with both combat and control abilities ~
Dual Talent Human: 15/17+STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 15/17+WIS, 9CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage: Admonishing Ray
Domain: Glory/Heroism
1. Medium Armor Proficiency - Mithril Breastplate
3. Toughness
5. Metamagic: Toppling Spell
7. Power Attack
9. Metamagic: Dazing Spell
With the triple buff of Heroism, Bard's Inspire Courage and Divine Favor, you're lethal with a Katana.
With the spell Admonishing Ray, you can throw rays of non-lethal force for very respectable damage - your combat buffs apply to rays you shoot as if they were weapons.
Beyond damage though, Toppling Spell means that any time you hit with a ray (and you get up to 3 rays) the target has a chance of getting knocked down. Dazing Spell means that any time you hit with a ray (again, you get multiple rays) the target has a chance of getting dazed, which basically knocks them out of the battle for two rounds.
These control options are on top of the normal damage, and the Magical Lineage: Admonishing Ray trait means that you get one free 'level' of metamagic - Toppling is effectively free, and Dazing only raises the spell two levels. You can even throw Toppling, Dazing rays to leave someone dazed on the floor, which is a death sentence. Think of it as throwing a flurry of telekinetic punches that can cause daze and knock people down, as well as knocking them out.
The fact that it's non-lethal damage means that it won't work on some enemies like undead; but it also means that you have a good chance of knocking people out cold and taking them prisoner (if you feel like it), which is very useful.
Oh, and you get regular Cleric control spells too, but those are way less fun...
Also, the Glory domain gives you the Touch of Glory power, so that several times a day you can use charisma skills - or just charisma - as if you were highly charismatic.
@ BadBird:
That sounds good. But if I invest a level into the Fighter and wear a medium or heavy armor, don't I get a penalty when casting spells?
Also, that may sound stupid, but why can't I cast spells while wielding a whip?
Clerics and Oracles have no problem casting in armor at all.
To clarify - you can absolutely cast a spell while holding a whip in your hand. What I mean is what is known as 'action economy' - the fact that you can generally only do one thing on a round. You can use a sword/whip/whatever to attack on your turn or you can cast a spell, but you can't do both at the same time unless an enemy walks into your reach and provokes an attack of opportunity. It's still good to be versatile, but controlling with both spells and a whip kind of overlap in function and require totally different resources.
I really like the idea. Since I don't need to follow a certain deity to use a longspear it seems to be the weapon of my choice. It allows me to play a melee based character without needing to go too close (allowing me to keep an eye on the fight and my team mates).
@ BadBird: Is there a way to mix the idea of the Reach Cleric with your idea of the Evangelist. Is there a better deity maybe that fit my needs?
So far I like the Evangelist build (from BadBird) and the bard build (from Corwin Illum) the most. Which one is better? :P
Reach is pretty similar as far the basics go, though you will want the Combat Reflexes feat to make more attacks of opportunity and possibly more dexterity to go with it; Evangelist is still great for reach melee.
Tactically, reach means that you can wait for enemies to move up to you and get an extra attack when they do (unless they're big). This can go well with sitting back casting spells and daring something to attack you. Overall, reach is still pretty 'frontline' - if you move up to attack, then the enemy can use a 5-foot step to full-attack you without triggering any extra attacks from you (the Lunge feat can work around this). With multiple melee characters in your party, you may not see many enemies moving up to you and triggering your reach, but that depends on how you, they, and the GM play it.
As far as Bard vs. Evangelist goes... Bards are great, though in general I think that the Evangelist unfairly rips off the best stuff about the Bard while having better overall spellcasting and features. Others would probably disagree. Two things about the Bard are that they get fewer spells, and other than some special archetypes they get less potential combat buffing as well in the long run. Bard is still a great class though - if it's what you really see the character as, then go for it. They do have a couple of unique spell tricks, and they're good with skills... they just don't get things like Dazing Admonishing Ray or Divine Favor.