The rules are paizo only, two classes only unless its a prestige class.
I'm assuming it might be a diviner kensai.
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Ifrit Gunslinger/Diviner wizard with the wild heart racial ability would have an absurd initiative modifier. Assuming level 10 with a 24 Dex (14 base, +2 Racial +4 item +2 Level) as a good point to base it at he has +5 from wizard, +7 from gunslinger, +4 from wild heart, +6 dexterity. giving a very nice +22 to initiative without Improved initiative or reactionary trait both of which stack on as well. which could bring it up to a +28 which basically means you go first. At 20th with a dex of 34 (18 Base +2 Racial +6 Item +4 Level +4 Tome) we are looking at +10 from wizard, +12 Gunslinger, +4 wild heart, +4 Imp Initiative, +2 reactionary, +12 dexterity) you always roll a 20 giving a flat initiative score of 54 unless my math is wrong. I would say that probably means you are going to go first in any situation.
Hmm. Ok, so that is pretty awesome, but my dm doesnt like gunslingers at all. I forgot to mention that.
The Vanguard Slayer also gets 1/2 level to initiative and at 7th level the ability to always act in the surprise round.
So could a sohei / diviner focusing on dexterity and intelligence be effective with a longbow?
So could a sohei / diviner focusing on dexterity and intelligence be effective with a longbow?Yes, but there would be a little but of overlap in abilities. A Sohei/Inquisitor focusing on Dex/Wis would be better for initiative and be better with the bow, but would would have worse spells.
I can see the better synergy, but how is it better for initiative?
Well, one of my non forum savey gaming mates was asking for help. So, I here I am. It looks like it will be a toss up between kensai diviner for melee focus or a sohei inquisitor for range.
Any other combinations to look at (not going to consider gunslinger)
I'm not familiar with gestalting, but why wouldn't you consider the Vanguard Slayer?
I can see the better synergy, but how is it better for initiative?So could a sohei / diviner focusing on dexterity and intelligence be effective with a longbow?Yes, but there would be a little but of overlap in abilities. A Sohei/Inquisitor focusing on Dex/Wis would be better for initiative and be better with the bow, but would would have worse spells.
Inquisitors can add their wisdom bonus to initiative. Coupled with the Sohei getting wisdom bonus to AC, it seems like a good combination.
You can also get Guided on your bow and (after 6th level) you can flurry with it as well.
So 10th level Sohei-Inquistor with a 22 wisdom (counting racial mods but not counting dex or magic items) would have a +5 level, +6 wisdom for a total of +11 initiative. Add in Improved Initiative/high dex/magic items and you can get that to be pretty good.
Also, don't discount the ability to act during surprise rounds.
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I really don't think that your buddy needs to have more than one of his classes be an initiative boosting class in combination with a dex build to have any trouble going first consistently.
Of note - from a pure power level (sans initiative) zen archer/inquisitor would probably be better at range.
The general rule for gesalting (if you're power-gaming it) is to get one full BAB or a class that can fake it. (like monk) And one class which uses spellcasting - possibly full spellcasting - and similar stats.
Actually - monks in general are really good for a gesalt because since they can get really good AC without armor, they combo really well with any spellcasters who use Wisdom.
A Sohei/Inquisitor is very solid - but I don't think they need to focus on range at all. Both classes are semi-full BAB, and what makes their almost full BAB stack.
A Sohei (unarmored)/sorcerer would be stupidly good if you went with the bloodline which casts based off of Wisdom. They wouldn't even need to rely upon another character for Mage Armor as they usually do, and unlike other full arcane gesalts you don't need to worry about spell failure.
Diviner/kensai isn't bad - though much of the kensai's spellcasting would go to waste as being inferior to the wizard's.
diviner wizard//kensai magus elf with the initiative alternate racial trait, reactionary improved initiative and a scorpion familiar. Str and wis 10, int and dex 18, cha 8 and con 10. Soft but fast. And initiative 13 at level 1 and way way more in the high end.
I would personally not take improved initiative at 1 but go with weapon finesse so fencing grace at 3 and level to dam at 6. And then i would get improved initiative.
I'm kind of surprised that nobody else has mentioned a 1 level dip in Battle Oracle for War Sight:
War Sight (Su): Whenever you roll for initiative, you can roll twice and take either result. At 7th level, you can always act in the surprise round, but if you fail to notice the ambush, you act last, regardless of your initiative result (you act in the normal order in following rounds). At 11th level, you can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.
Diviner 20 OR Divine Tactician Cleric 20
Battle Oracle 1 / take your pick 19
Also an Order of the Flame cavalier has a move as part of the initiative ability so long as you roll an 11 or greater:
"At 2nd level, the cavalier can charge across the battlefield at a moment's notice. Whenever the cavalier attempts an initiative check, as long as he rolls an 11 or higher on the die, he can move up to his base speed as an immediate action and he is not considered flat-footed.
If the cavalier takes an action to move during his next turn, he subtracts the number of feet moved during the initiative check from his total movement."
Combined with that vanguard slayer mentioned above and you get 2x base speed or move base speed and attack half the time you even roll the dice.
That may work better with a Divination wizard with the School Familiar feat. This would allow the character to roll initiative twice and take the better result.
Curious - why the initiative focus for your gesalt build anyway? Once you're high enough to go first pretty consistently, anything beyond that is mostly wasted resources.
I can't help but think about the last time I played a Diviner Wizard... I very rarely rolled above a 5 on the die for initiative. Even with my high initiative bonus, I usually came in the middle of the pack (though I was never last). I would've loved to have an even higher initiative bonus on that character, just to actually go first more often...
That said, it does seem a little odd to focus so heavily on initiative. Going first doesn't do that much if you don't have something solid to do; ideally something that benefits greatly from getting to choose exactly when it happens.
I'm kind of surprised that nobody else has mentioned a 1 level dip in Battle Oracle for War Sight:
War Sight (Su): Whenever you roll for initiative, you can roll twice and take either result. At 7th level, you can always act in the surprise round, but if you fail to notice the ambush, you act last, regardless of your initiative result (you act in the normal order in following rounds). At 11th level, you can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.
Diviner 20 OR Divine Tactician Cleric 20
Battle Oracle 1 / take your pick 19
dips are not allowed, must stick with two classes for 20 levels unless A prestige class is taken
Curious - why the initiative focus for your gesalt build anyway? Once you're high enough to go first pretty consistently, anything beyond that is mostly wasted resources.I can't help but think about the last time I played a Diviner Wizard... I very rarely rolled above a 5 on the die for initiative. Even with my high initiative bonus, I usually came in the middle of the pack (though I was never last). I would've loved to have an even higher initiative bonus on that character, just to actually go first more often...
That said, it does seem a little odd to focus so heavily on initiative. Going first doesn't do that much if you don't have something solid to do; ideally something that benefits greatly from getting to choose exactly when it happens.
as a caster, there is always something to do.
dips are not allowed, must stick with two classes for 20 levels unless A prestige class is takenI'm kind of surprised that nobody else has mentioned a 1 level dip in Battle Oracle for War Sight:
War Sight (Su): Whenever you roll for initiative, you can roll twice and take either result. At 7th level, you can always act in the surprise round, but if you fail to notice the ambush, you act last, regardless of your initiative result (you act in the normal order in following rounds). At 11th level, you can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.
Diviner 20 OR Divine Tactician Cleric 20
Battle Oracle 1 / take your pick 19
Strange little twist on the normal gestalt rules. Despite the redundancy of the class list for spells, DT Cleric + Battle Oracle would be perfectly acceptable for the initiative focus AND you'd have one set of spells for regular use and another set of spells for situationals. That's SUPER handy.
How about inquisitor(tactics subdomain) // kensai with VMC diviner(forsigth)
How about inquisitor(tactics subdomain) // kensai with VMC diviner(forsigth)
I will look into this.