hi all,
we just fought a daemon that had the ability to cast creeping doom.
CREEPING DOOM
School conjuration (summoning); Level druid 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)/100 ft.; see text
Effect four swarms of insects
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude partial, see text; Spell Resistance no
This spell summons four massive swarms of biting and stinging insects. These swarms appear adjacent to one another, but can be directed to move independently. Treat these swarms as centipede swarms with the following adjustments. The swarms have 60 hit points each and deal 4d6 points of damage with their swarm attack. The save to resist their poison and distraction effects is equal to the save DC of this spell. Creatures caught in multiple swarms only take damage and make saves once.
the zen archer in our party is wearing a swarmsbane clasp allowing him to deal full damage with his bow. after a full-round action and awesome rolling, the zen archer dealt 108 points of damage. we were all surprised that the swarm stayed intact and didn't at least partially break up.
our gm told use that the swarms(4) are all considered on giant swarm with 4x the hitpoints. is that correct?
could/should the archer been able to target separate sqaures to break or destroy part of the swarm?
our gm said that the 4 swarms could of all moved onto one character(square) and become a "swarm blender" . is this within the rules to have stacking multiple swarms on one square?
the daemon is cr 12 and with this swarm force field surrounding it and making us roll 20% concealment on every attack seemed a bit too much..
maybe yes maybe no...not sure
Is this for a homebrew game? Or something like Pathfinder Society?
homebrew but....
we all want RAW to be the rule of the daysome of us didn't understand why we had to roll concealment miss chances since distraction is the only thing swarm traits mention.
some of us didn't think swarms multiply hit points when adjacent to each other
our gm told use that the swarms(4) are all considered on giant swarm with 4x the hitpoints. is that correct?
No. "Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms."
our gm said that the 4 swarms could of all moved onto one character(square) and become a "swarm blender" . is this within the rules to have stacking multiple swarms on one square?
Looks like this is technically allowed but discouraged. "The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous (adjacent) squares." One could argue that if the swarms overlap, they should attack each other, as they automatically inflict damage on anything in their area.
our gm told use that the swarms(4) are all considered on giant swarm with 4x the hitpoints. is that correct?No. "Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms."
That works out basically the same though. 4 swarms with 60 hp each is basically equivalent to 1 swarm with 240 hp, except that individual portions of the "giant swarm" could die.
I have to be honest though, I an recalling somewhere that multiple swarms of the same type were treated as one giant combined swarm. But perhaps I just have a faulty memory.
should the zen archer have the option to attack certain squares?
does the swarm covering the daemon offer him concealment vs our attacks?
multiple swarms all the same could be considered working together...just don't know 240 hit point swarm surrounding a cr 12 daemon seems tough..
Swarmwalking (Su)
A derghodaemon is immune to damage or distraction effects caused by swarms.
no problem with it hanging around in it's swarm, just confused why some of us missed when we failed on partial cover(concealment) rolls.
Don't the general rules say that attack a creature through the square of another creature provides cover?
Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Concealment
To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.
In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.
Now the question is, do swarm provide concealment at all? The definitely provide cover.
paizo is usually good about listing cover/concealment with regards to spells,spell-like abilities, and special conditions. the party was rolling 20% miss chance on every attack whether ranged, reach(out of swarm), or adjacent (inside swarm). i mentioned that the daemon would also have to roll concealment against us but that was dismissed because the daemon had swarmwalking (su)
That works out basically the same though. 4 swarms with 60 hp each is basically equivalent to 1 swarm with 240 hp, except that individual portions of the "giant swarm" could die.our gm told use that the swarms(4) are all considered on giant swarm with 4x the hitpoints. is that correct?No. "Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms."
That's a fairly significant difference - if you remove three quarters of the super-swarm's hit points, it can still spread out over a wide area and attack the entire group. With four individual swarms, they'll be killed off one at a time.
On top of that, four ordinary swarms are far more vulnerable to a fireball than one super-swarm, since you can damage all four of them at once and do four times as much damage.
That works out basically the same though. 4 swarms with 60 hp each is basically equivalent to 1 swarm with 240 hp, except that individual portions of the "giant swarm" could die.our gm told use that the swarms(4) are all considered on giant swarm with 4x the hitpoints. is that correct?No. "Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms."That's a fairly significant difference - if you remove three quarters of the super-swarm's hit points, it can still spread out over a wide area and attack the entire group. With four individual swarms, they'll be killed off one at a time.
On top of that, four ordinary swarms are far more vulnerable to a fireball than one super-swarm, since you can damage all four of them at once and do four times as much damage.
i agree with a zen archer with precise shot and targeting the swarm squares closest to our melee fighter....kill at least part of the swarm
creeping doom states the swarm is motionless
insect swarm allows movement of the swarm but at the loss of the daemon standard action.....important to eliminate part of the swarm
sorry,
insect swarm...You summon a number of swarms of wasps (one per three levels, to a maximum of six swarms at 18th level). The swarms must be summoned so that each one is adjacent to at least one other swarm (that is, the swarms must fill one contiguous area). You may summon the wasp swarms so that they share the area of other creatures. Each swarm attacks any creatures occupying its area. The swarms are stationary after being summoned, and won't pursue creatures that flee.
the daemon is surrounded by a swarm of wasps
he also casted creeping doom with centipedes As a standard action, you can command any number of the swarms to move toward any target within 100 feet of you. You cannot command any swarm to move more than 100 feet away from you, and if you move more than 100 feet from any swarm, that swarm remains stationary, attacking any creatures in its area (but can be commanded again if you move within 100 feet).