A new look at talent distribution

[Thrawn007]

I've made an argument during playtest 2 that a simple thing to help all 4 specializations would to be to give a level 1 vigilante talent. This would ease complaints a little about not enough talents, and it would strengthen the health and power level of the class overall.

I'm taking back this position for several reasons.
1) I already see this as a dip class, and adding more power at level 1 makes it even more prone to dipping.
2) The class isn't bad at level 1-2, it's the scaling where things become problematic.

Therefore, I'd recommend against my suggestion to add a vigilante talent at level 1, even though that was an easy change.

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So where do we go from there...I'm looking at the following talent distribution to see what it adds good or bad.
1 Social
2 Vigilante
3 Vigilante
4 Social
5 Vigilante
6 Vigilante
7 Social
8 Vigilante
9 Vigilante
10 Social
11 Vigilante
12 Vigilante
etc...

This would mean...
4 social talents through level 12 (7 through level 20)
8 vigilante talents through level 12 (13 through level 20)
This effectively gives a shift of 3 traits from social to vigilante.

Some assumptions:
1) Social talents would need to streamline somewhat for the "core" talents, scaling with level instead of requiring multiple talents. (I'd still be happy with the social side building with less talents but using a list similar to the one I posted elsewhere.
2) Avenger and Stalker lists of talents wouldn't change dramatically, but would additional talents to what we've seen.
3) Both caster selections would still use talents to buy casting levels.
4) Some talent chains would be needed as alternative to spell levels for warlocks and zealots
5) Level requirements would obviously need to be reworked for all talents.

What does this mean for..The Avenger
1) If the Avenger takes pure combat feats, he catches up to the fighter at level 3, then starts swapping back and forth who has the most feats. The avenger pulls ahead at level 12, and gets two feats ahead at level 15, ending with those two feats extra at the end.
2) This is actually the class that worried me the most, but I'm pretty happy with those results. The class gets a slight feat advantage over the fighter in exchange for less hit points, and no complimentary combat boosters (weapon and armor training on the fighter). I would play the vigilante over the fighter in many cases, but I don't think it would be automatic, and I don't see this really being stronger than classes like the ranger, paladin, and slayer.

What does this mean for..The Stalker
1) This means more variety in builds. We love the stalker due to lots of unique talents. this gives room in a build for more complementary skills instead of the straight combat stuff. I could never fit many of the talents I loved in a build, and this gives just that little bit of extra room.
2) To make this work, new talents introduced should be more complementary than combat buffs, or if new combat buffs are introduced they should have tradeoffs with current options and not have too much synergy. I like the options the stalker has in combat right now, but don't want the class to be pushed towards "too good" just to "more fun"

What does this mean for..The Warlock
1) First, this means that by level 12, you double your number of non-casting talents, letting you actually make some selections.
2) Second, this would give the ability to not have 4 level gaps for casting talents. This could smooth out the curve a bit. Admittedly, no talent at 4th level is a little bit problematic for Arcane II though. A decision would have to be made on whether it belongs at 3 or 5.
3) I still feel that having a full talent chain for arcane bolts, a talent chain (or at least 1 additional talent to get throw anything + int bonus) for bombs, and the more I think about it...a tatoo container chain, would be good to compete with spellcasting or at least with each other.

What does this mean for..The Zealot
1) See Warlock #1 and #2
2) Some talent chains in the Zealot would be a good thing too.

What does this mean for..All Vigilantes
1) No increase in power for 1 and 2 level dips.
2) Accross the board buff and incentive for sticking with the class.
3) More ability to customize your vigilantes.
4) More things (talent slots) to trade out in the design of archypes.

[pH unbalanced]

Hmmm. What if at each level you were allowed to take either a Social or Vigilante Talent at each level (your choice) but you could never have more than two more of one than the other?

[master_marshmallow]

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[Terminalmancer]

Your proposal increases the Vigilante identity pretty significantly but nearly nerfs the social identity--with the talents as written, anyway. I don't think it's a bad idea but it would force a rethink in the relative power level of the talents, which might be a lot to ask at this stage of the playtest.

[Thrawn007]

This is why one of my assumptions would be scaling social talents. If renown is rolled into 1 talent, and changes are one talent, and guises are 1 talent, then it doesn't take many social talents to do the same thing. My thoughts on social talents here cover how I think they should be reworked, and I looked back to that thread as my basis of whether I could live with the social talent choices at each level of the character.

I generally was happy with my social build, but I usually still was wanting for more vigilante feats, even with the 2/3 split I'm proposing. That is what helps me feel comfortable I'm not taking it too far, but I'm sure many others may feel differently, which is why I'm putting the whole idea out there for discussion.

[Thrawn007]

pH unbalanced wrote:

Hmmm. What if at each level you were allowed to take either a Social or Vigilante Talent at each level (your choice) but you could never have more than two more of one than the other?

1) I think it makes the level 1 and 2 dip too strong. I specifically was keeping the social at level 1 to avoid this.

(On the other hand, my latest playtest really showed not having a vigilante talent at level 1 made avengers/stalkers really boring characters mechanically at first level.)

2) There is much more precedent for picking certain things at certain levels instead of freeform choice. This class has enough free form built in with the two types of talents (which I like), without adding another layer of choice.