A little something from James Jacobs:
While clerics do have to remain within one step of their deity's alignment, other classes generally do not.
That said... if you worship a deity, you're going to be following that deity's teachings and laws and advice, and in so doing you're going to constantly be performing tasks and duties that will shape your personality and ethics naturally into an alignment that's close to the deity's alignment.
It's only if you're a heretic that your alignment will be drastically different than your deity's alignment. And if you're a heretic, you're either a lone lunatic who might just be crazy or willfully blasphemous against the deity you purport to be a worshiper of, or you're a member of a larger group of heretics or cult. There's actually not many hereticial cults in Golarion, but they do exist. Chances are that if your alignment is more than one step removed from the deity you say you worship, you're just a blasphemer. You certainly shouldn't expect any favors or aid from your deity or that deity's church/religion, and in fact you should probably expect to be regarded as a criminal by that church.
A worshiper of Erastil who had a bad experience and became neutral evil would probably NOT continue to worship Erastil. He certainly wouldn't receive any benefit from that worship—magical or mundane. And furthermore, it seems relatively illogical that someone who suffered such a traumatic experience that his alignment shifted from what I assume was lawful good all the way to neutral evil would WANT to keep worshiping Erastil—I would think that character would utterly abandon that faith in favor of one of Erastil's enemies (such as Norgorber) or would become an agnostic or atheist, perhaps one with an agenda to destroy Erastil's church by whatever means necessary. I honestly can't really think of a logical reason, besides "the character is utterly crazy," why such a character would stick with worshiping Erastil.
Note that if such a character DID stick to worshiping Erastil but became a violent, bitter loner, he would probably only be neutral, at worst. As soon as he goes so far as to earn an evil alignment, he's not worshiping Erastil. That'd be like someone claiming they're a jet fighter pilot even though they can't actually fly. It's just flat-out lying.
Here's a link to the original post.
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Paladins do not have any specific rules regarding deities, so they fall into the general rule that to gain benefits from a deity you must be within one step of that deity.
This means ant LG, NG, or LN deity is acceptable. There are Paladin Archetypes and Prestige classes that have Paladins of Irori, a LN god. There are also several paladins of Abadar, another LN god. There are also several Paladins of Sarenrae, a NG goddess.
Inner Sea Gods has paladin codes for all the LG, NG and LN gods in Pathfinder.
Check Pg. 14 for Abadar, pg. 54 for Erastil, pg. 79 for Iomedae, (oddly enough, Irori doesn't have a paladin code), pg. 137 for Sarenrae, pg. 142 for Shelyn, and pg. 150 for Torag.
I think that's the case, yes.
anyone want to link to that thread about if a paladin can follow an evil deity? :P
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anyone want to link to that thread about if a paladin can follow an evil deity? :PBring peace, love and order in the name of Lamashtu! :D
In all seriousness, no. They have antipaladins for that.
nah, the paladin of urgothoa probably just thinks undead are people too. he's probably sad he can't heal them.
edit: *paladin being mauled by a ghoul*
"oh stop it, people are watching" *paladin blushes*
Creative Director
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So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?
That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
From what I know, Paladins can basically worship any Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral deity.
The third option would probably be the least common, but at least Abadar and Irori have some Paladin worshippers.
So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.
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he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
True. But still wouldn't be worshiping that deity seriously. By "not seriously" I don't mean "Being goofy and/or comedic," but "not really sincere about worship."
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True. But still wouldn't be worshiping that deity seriously. By "not seriously" I don't mean "Being goofy and/or comedic," but "not really sincere about worship."he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
Can't Neutral Evil selfish merchant be a sincere worshiper of Abadar, with sincere appreciation of civilization, culture, and organized banking system? Is the alignment of the deity more important than the deity's portfolio in determining what is crucial in worship of the deity?
Can't Neutral Evil selfish merchant be a sincere worshiper of Abadar, with sincere appreciation of civilization, culture, and organized banking system? Is the alignment of the deity more important than the deity's portfolio in determining what is crucial in worship of the deity?True. But still wouldn't be worshiping that deity seriously. By "not seriously" I don't mean "Being goofy and/or comedic," but "not really sincere about worship."he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
Oh, he may think that he has an appreciation for all those things. But I'm willing to bet that when push comes to shove, that Neutral Evil individual is going to be less than fond of some things that a dedicated Abadar worshipper (read: someone within one step on the alignment chart) will support. Like, say, taxes. Or closely following the letter of law. Or giving out loans. You know, the things that the church of Abadar is really known for.
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Can't Neutral Evil selfish merchant be a sincere worshiper of Abadar, with sincere appreciation of civilization, culture, and organized banking system? Is the alignment of the deity more important than the deity's portfolio in determining what is crucial in worship of the deity?True. But still wouldn't be worshiping that deity seriously. By "not seriously" I don't mean "Being goofy and/or comedic," but "not really sincere about worship."he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
A NE merchant can provide sincere lip service to Abadar, but his actions may be more in line with the tenets of Norgorber.
That merchant can worship Abadar, but he couldn't become a Cleric of Abadar unless he changed from Neutral Evil to Lawful Evil.
A NE merchant can provide sincere lip service to Abadar, but his actions may be more in line with the tenets of Norgorber.Can't Neutral Evil selfish merchant be a sincere worshiper of Abadar, with sincere appreciation of civilization, culture, and organized banking system? Is the alignment of the deity more important than the deity's portfolio in determining what is crucial in worship of the deity?True. But still wouldn't be worshiping that deity seriously. By "not seriously" I don't mean "Being goofy and/or comedic," but "not really sincere about worship."he could just be crazy/misunderstand/or making a cult.So, if I'm reading it right, there have been no specific restrictions put out on paladins as a class, so we're assuming the general one-step rule used for all divine casters applies?That's a good rule for ALL characters who worship a deity, since if you're more than one step away... you're not really worshiping that deity in a serious way.
Just because he is Neutral Evil does not mean that his actions must involve poisons and murder, can, but do not have to be secretive (in fact a rich merchant can be fond of fame, prestige, and publicity) leaving only a greed as major link - but is that enough to say that his closer to Norgorber than Abadar?
That merchant can worship Abadar, but he couldn't become a Cleric of Abadar unless he changed from Neutral Evil to Lawful Evil.
Yeah. But James questioned possibility of sincere worship with two or more steps of alignment difference. Getting divine spells is an even more restricted matter than sincere worship.
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If you are legitimately and honestly and faithfully worshiping a deity, you're following that deity's teachings and practicing that deity's wisdom and suggestions and emulating the deity and what the deity's church is all about. Those actions that you take mean you're the deity's alignment... or at the very least, within that one step.
If you're not, and you're professing to worship a deity while taking actions that make your alignment something further out... you're basically a blasphemer. A heretic at best. Chances are good that as a result, such a character will end up being punished in the afterlife.
A neutral evil "worshiper" of Abadar is NOT faithfully or productively adhering to Abadar's faith and is causing more harm to that faith then help, and unless said character atones OR switches to worship a more appropriate deity (like Norgorber... that's a great option for such a character, especially since he or she's "pretend to be a worshiper of Abadar" while secretly being neutral evil falls completely within the boundaries and even the goals of Norgorber's faith as the deity of secrets), he's pretty much guaranteed to end up being one of the Hunted on Abaddon and end up a daemon's meal.
(Note that if you're a neutral evil worshiper of Norgorber and you're devout and faithful, you will likely NOT end up being hunted by daemons, but will instead end up serving in his realm as one of the ones HUNTING those poor souls.)
Wasn't the iconic Alchemist a worshipper of Norgorber? And wasn't his alignment Chaotic Neutral?
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Creative Director
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Wasn't the iconic Alchemist a worshipper of Norgorber? And wasn't his alignment Chaotic Neutral?
And as such he's probably not doing his immortal soul any favors.
I'm not saying you CAN'T have someone who's out of sync in their alignment with their professed deity... just that if you DO have that situation, you're not the most faithful and likely not serious about your faith... or if you are, you're actively heretical or blasphemous.
Are people in Golarion able to seriously worship multiple deities with different alignments? Or are they confined to only one?
-Matt
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Now... OBVIOUSLY, how this works in a home game is 100% entirely up to the GM, not me.
No one should take my words as an attempt to micromanage anyone's home campaign, I hope.
But they ARE the expectation; they ARE the canonical Golarion response. There's a difference between that and anyone's home game. It's sometimes too easy to forget that.
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Are people in Golarion able to seriously worship multiple deities? Or are they confined to only one?
-Matt
They do it all the time. Oracles are more or less built to do this. When you worship multiple deities, your faith is NOT all about singling one deity out, and the alignment restrictions become less and less significant. If, say, our example merchant was worshiping Norgorber AND Abadar... he'd not be faithful enough to be a cleric, but he could certainly be, say, an oracle who, for example, worshiped the "zeitgeist of the city, warts and shining jewels alike." Such a character isn't worshiping only one deity, but sorta making up his/her own faith based on two deities. In many cases, there are established faiths that follow such norms.
Different case than a character only worshiping one deity though.
OK, cool. Thanks, James!
-Matt
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So the NE merchant ends up in Abbadon either way, but if he's more forthright about which deity he worships, he gets higher up on the "food chain"?
Does it work the other way? Would a LN merchant who pays lip service to Norgorber end up a beggar on the streets of Utopia, while he could have had an estate there instead if he acknowledged Abadar instead?
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What if the god's portfolio is not one that makes good/evil or chaos/law distinctions?
Such as a god of Cooking or even a god of Nature? Would it make a difference then if the God of Food & Drink was CG and you were LE (hey, even Dr. Doom drinks wine on occasion, right)? Would it still be considered being a blasphemer if you worshiped the god in question because you were a gourmand?
The god of War revels in all battle. Does he care if the conflict is between good and evil or between Upper and Lower Whoodiiville who are fighting over the mineral rights of the strip of land at the border?
I guess this would be a bad question/situation for a Paladin who, in my mind, is less a divine warrior, than a divine warrior of good. In that case it would be harder to justify a paladin of Ares (for example).
EDIT: This isn't specifically a Golarion question. I understand if the game world makes such distinctions. I was just wondering in general.
I (oddly enough, Irori doesn't have a paladin code),It would be rather strange if he did. Irori does not put defearting evil high on his priority list. His thing is personal perfection... he leaves the Crusading to martial gods like Iomedae and Torag.
Fair enough.
Still, I think you COULD make a case for his followers safeguarding other of his faithful on their journeys to spiritual perfection... except that'd fall more appropriately under the warpriest's purview, instead of a paladin's.
going to see about a paladin of Asmodeus with the oath against chaos in my next game.
You might appreciate similar things, but worshiping a god kinda means you have to respect their moral values too. I find it kind of hard to believe that a CG God of Food and Drink would be happy to find you've been letting peasants starve while you stuff yourself, for example.What if the god's portfolio is not one that makes good/evil or chaos/law distinctions?
Such as a god of Cooking or even a god of Nature? Would it make a difference then if the God of Food & Drink was CG and you were LE (hey, even Dr. Doom drinks wine on occasion, right)? Would it still be considered being a blasphemer if you worshiped the god in question because you were a gourmand?
CG gods of food and drink are CG probably because they want everyone to be happy, nothing wrong with being lawful evil and also thinking people should be happy(so long as it doesn't impede you).
So the NE merchant ends up in Abbadon either way, but if he's more forthright about which deity he worships, he gets higher up on the "food chain"?
Does it work the other way? Would a LN merchant who pays lip service to Norgorber end up a beggar on the streets of Utopia, while he could have had an estate there instead if he acknowledged Abadar instead?
Actually, if he was a sincere worshiper of Norgorbor, he could go to Norgorbor's divine realm in Axis.
Yes, it's in Axis. Norgorbor runs the underbelly of Axis.
A LN merchant that pays lip service to Norgorbor has a really weird life. But if he was a sincere follower of Abadar, he oould wind up in Abadar's realm in Axis.
If he was a middling follower of both but still LN, then he could possibly wind up in the streets of Axis instead of either realm.
I don't think any of Axis's petitioners are beggars, though. Workers, yes. Beggars, no. (Unless that's his actual job in the City.)
The main "afterlife" perk of sincerely following a god is going to that god's divine realm regardless of the worshiper's actual alignment (so CN and NE worshipers of Lamashtu all go to the Abyss), instead of going to the plane at large.
(For another example, Urgathoa's a neutral evil deity with a realm on Abaddon. And so her N, LE, and CE worshipers can all go to Abaddon. But she's got an agreement with the Four Horsemen, and her petitioners are strictly off-limits to the daemons.)
And if your alignment is too far out of step with a deity, odds are good you strongly hold a value that stands in opposition (directly or indirectly) to the deity's values.
Like a chaotic follower of Asmodeus that hates slavery and aggressively emancipates slaves.
Ha! Think of it this way - if a worshiper's alignment is too far removed from a deity, the worshiper's not a fan; the worshiper's a stalker.
Edit: And trying to stalk a god is a terrible idea.
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So the NE merchant ends up in Abbadon either way, but if he's more forthright about which deity he worships, he gets higher up on the "food chain"?
Does it work the other way? Would a LN merchant who pays lip service to Norgorber end up a beggar on the streets of Utopia, while he could have had an estate there instead if he acknowledged Abadar instead?
The NE merchant could also end up in Hell or the Abyss, actually. Depends on a lot of variables.
A LN merchant who pays lip service to Norgorber, but doesn't do enough to shift his alignment to evil could very well still end up hunted in Abaddon. Or maybe just turned into a lowest-tier laborer in Axis. Again... it really depends on a lot of variables. Pharasma's the only one who understands that math.
Hah! At least my deity doesn't play favourites. So long as you know how to cast spells, he's okay with you.
this is my favorite kind of alignment thread, one that involves golarion gods.
I really love the six Paladin & Antipaladin codes in Inner Sea Gods.
It seems intentional that Irori and Gorum didn't get them while Abadar and Calistria did.
The existence of the prestige class Champion of Irori specifically mentions paladins of Irori.
Are there any plans to print more codes for more deities?
I think it would be really cool to see a code for Zarongel for example.
You might appreciate similar things, but worshiping a god kinda means you have to respect their moral values too. I find it kind of hard to believe that a CG God of Food and Drink would be happy to find you've been letting peasants starve while you stuff yourself, for example.What if the god's portfolio is not one that makes good/evil or chaos/law distinctions?
Such as a god of Cooking or even a god of Nature? Would it make a difference then if the God of Food & Drink was CG and you were LE (hey, even Dr. Doom drinks wine on occasion, right)? Would it still be considered being a blasphemer if you worshiped the god in question because you were a gourmand?
I would think LE would allow for the peasants to reap what they sow, no more no less.
So if they worked hard and earned it they got their rations as dictated by law. But if they did not, then they can starve (or get the bare minimum, again as the laws of the land dictated).
But I do understand your point. A CG god of food & drink would think everyone should be able to sample the finer things, while a LE "worshipper" might not agree with that viewpoint.
There was back in the old days of pathfinder an order of paladins dedicated to Asmodeus the Prince of Law
There was back in the old days of pathfinder an order of paladins dedicated to Asmodeus the Prince of LawNot really. That was an error that didn't get caught in development. It's since been fixed, in the same way we've fixed typos and broken rules as part of errata.
i want to see the day when paladins join up with followers of asmodeus to fight proteans or something.
There was back in the old days of pathfinder an order of paladins dedicated to Asmodeus the Prince of LawNot really. That was an error that didn't get caught in development. It's since been fixed, in the same way we've fixed typos and broken rules as part of errata.
oh, i forgot about that, my bad
i want to see the day when paladins join up with followers of asmodeus to fight proteans or something.There was back in the old days of pathfinder an order of paladins dedicated to Asmodeus the Prince of LawNot really. That was an error that didn't get caught in development. It's since been fixed, in the same way we've fixed typos and broken rules as part of errata.
there might be some paladins in the Hellknight order of the Godclaw and if i remember correctly (please correct me if I am wrong) Asmodeus is one of the 5 lawful gods that make up the Godclaw
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I think it would be really cool to see a code for Zarongel for example.
I think the only copy of the Code of Zarongel was burned on a pyre of dogs and horses along with the blasphemer who wrote it down.
-TimD
I think it would be really cool to see a code for Zarongel for example.I think the only copy of the Code of Zarongel was burned on a pyre of dogs and horses along with the blasphemer who wrote it down.
-TimD
as it should be