I'm currently DMing a Carrion Crown campaign, and one of my players plays a tiefling magus, who uses Infernal Healing quite a lot, even though he is Chaotic Good. He plays his character according to his alignment, but a bit aloof and 'damaged' because of a bad youth. He sees the spell as a 'means to an end', which is a very interesting point of view.
I wanted the use of the spell to have a more lasting and somewhat dramatic effect on him, other than changing his alignment. The way I see it, by using that spell, you summon power from Hell into this world, or even into the target of the spell (mostly him, but sometimes party members as well).
I don't want to punish him for using the spell, or force him to NOT use it just because he is good-aligned. I just want to drive home the fact that repeatedly using an evil spell comes with a price...
The price of detecting as evil for the duration of the spell seems somewhat... fleeting.
Well, there isn't a price, really. That's the problem.
Asmodeus might have some ultra-long-shot plan for giving every arcane caster healing powers, but for now it's entirely innocuous. You detect as Evil for a while, paladins and Clerics might have a problem with you for about five second, and then they see you being Chaotic Good and leave you alone.
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Since there isn't really any in-game mechanic to address this, it kinda falls under the purview of House Rules. To that end, I've altered the spell in my game to be "Planar Healing," and the caster chooses from which plane they draw the healing power based on what material components they use in the spell, thus changing the various tags for the spell to reflect their choice.
For example, using a drop of angel blood or holy water would make the spell Good. I also let them use blood from any Outsider as a material component, allowing for the entire gamut of descriptors for the spell.
But, again, House Rules.
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There is no "hard and fast" effect of using spells with the evil descriptor within the rules. However, using evil spells should (IMO) carry role-playing consequences; role-playing, in general, doesn't lend itself well to a straightforward mechanical treatment.
One possibility is that the "harsh" method of infernal healing, instead of the (positive energy) cure light wounds, causes discomfort (not to the extent of penalties) and scarring. Another is that using infernal healing causes his fiendish appearance to become more noticeable/obvious.
Also, "the ends justify the means" is not really a Chaotic Good mindset. The character is still committing an evil act (not majorly so, but still evil) by casting a spell with the evil descriptor, regardless of why. You can play up the corruption/temptation aspect by singling out the character with offers of power/advantage ("The first hit's free, kid...") as the campaign progresses, even before looking at forcing an alignment change; since the character is already using the spell "quite a lot," they may be willing to be led down the path of "good intentions..."
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Various other effects of an evil alignment could apply over time, such as being subject to effects that damage evil targets (holy weapons, a paladin's smite, etc.) and not 'counting' as good for purposes of good effects (such as being unable to summon celestial creatures (or having already summoned celestial / good creatures suddenly become uncontrolled, or just vanishing, as if the spell had retroactively failed), or taking damage from even *holding* a holy weapon, or being barred from an allies protection from evil spell, unable to cast spells like align weapon [good], etc.). More advanced problems could be becoming unable to prepare [good] spells entirely, or becoming uncomfortable (to the point of suffering penalties) if bearing items of silver (which penetrates the DR of devils and would logically be uncomfortable to them), etc. The spell could also have different effects not only based on the casters alignment (50% chance of spell failure if the caster is good, 20% chance of spell failure if the caster is neutral, encouraging casters to become evil to get reliable use of the spell), or the recipients alignment (normal on evil targets, is unpleasant for neutral targets (-1 to checks as half-strength sickened condition) and downright painful and distracting for good targets (full sickened condition while it lasts). Since the spell is generally used out of combat, this would *generally* not be too much of a drawback, and might end up still not being as much of a disincentive as it sounds.
Ultimately, it's up to you whether or not you want to do this sort of thing, since the game mechanics don't currently do so, and it's also up to you to decide whether or not infernal healing is overpowered or unbalancing (or steps on the healer niche of the party cleric, etc.). If it doesn't, there's no real need to add disadvantages to using the spell, simply because of the flavor (since it's entirely possible to just make a celestial version of the spell, using holy water or the tear of a celestial creature as component, that causes the target to detect as good for a minute, and thereby completely sidestep any sort of flavor mismatch).
If it is unbalancing, additional side effects to using [evil] spells might be swatting a fly with a bulldozer (and have all sorts of unintended consequences, while not necessarily actually stopping the player from using the spell at all!), since you, as GM, can just as easily remove the spell from the game and address the specific problem directly and surgically, rather than tinker with a larger set of mechanics including all [chaos], [evil], [good] and [law] descriptor spells and effects.
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One possibility is that the "harsh" method of infernal healing, instead of the (positive energy) cure light wounds, causes discomfort (not to the extent of penalties) and scarring.
This is also similar to what I've done; I describe the healing done by Infernal Healing to HURT like . . . well, Hell. Using it on unsuspecting NPCs, even ones who aren't capable of identifying the spell or detecting Evil, are not going to respond well to its use.
"Sorry, Sir Mage, I'll think I'll just tough this one out and maybe douse it with some hooch. It'll hurt less than whatever it was you did last time."
You'd have to be using alignment tracking mechanics for it to have any significance.
Good characters abstain from evil.
Neutral characters sometimes do evil things, besides doing some good things.
The "'means to an end'" philosophy of the Magus is a neutral philosophy, not a good one.
--> If he uses this spell over the long run i'd adjust his alignment to Neutral. But not to Evil, regardless of how often he uses it. For that its just not evil enough by itself. But its a good start to walk the Road to Corruption. .. Which sounds very devilish to me. ;-)
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I tend to think of low-level Evil spells like infernal healing as the equivalent of stealing a candy bar- it's not going to make you change alignment by itself, but it should be considered as part of an overall pattern when viewing the character. There is no "official" alignment tracking, and I despise alignment point systems.
Basically you have a CG PC who has shown that he will casually and callously commit acts of minor evil, justifying them with "the ends justify the means," which is often an evil philosophy. If the PC starts to do other questionable acts, you may want to have a discussion with the player about how maybe he is CN instead of CG. I also don't believe in using alignment to "punish," but instead to simply describe how the character has been acting.
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Aside from good-aligned clerics/gods having issue with it, the Evil Descriptor really doesn't do anything by RAW. If you want to do something with it, go ahead. I just ignore alignment descriptors at my table. If the spell actually required you to do something evil that'd be another matter.
To be entirely honest, I find Dominate Person a lot more evil than the vast majority of spells with the evil descriptor.
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The character's alignment is not the only relevant feature - he's a tiefling. A good tiefling is essentially someone who has chosen to repurpose something of an infernal nature - namely themselves - to do good. Casting infernal healing could be thought of as a small-scale version of what they've done with their lives. Alignment does not represent the sum total of a character's morality when examined out of context.
And infernal healing already has a set of rules consequences and limitations.
The character's alignment is not the only relevant feature - he's a tiefling. A good tiefling is essentially someone who has chosen to repurpose something of an infernal nature - namely themselves - to do good. Casting infernal healing could be thought of as a small-scale version of what they've done with their lives. Alignment does not represent the sum total of a character's morality when examined out of context.
And infernal healing already has a set of rules consequences and limitations.
But in the same line, a tiefling can't change their stripes (spikes, horns, hooves, etc.), while you can certainly change your spell list and wands.
Being a tiefling is not a moral choice. Having powers thrust upon you and taking advantage of them is much different from actively seeking out a dark power to use for your own gains because it is SLIGHTLY more convenient than the good option (a wand of CLW).
Of course, personally, I would just try to get boots of the earth and forget all these moral problems. Nice and simple- wear the boots, stand in one spot, enjoy infinite fast healing 1. Pass onto your friend when you are done. It is somewhat more expensive (5,000 gp- that is a lot of CLW/infernal healing wands- the difference between buying a home and renting one), but affordable as a party expense and it means you do not have to go looking for wands or using up spell slots.
So, if this is REALLY a moral problem for you, as a GM, then just throw a pair of these in as loot. You get similar effects for long term healing, and you don't have to go looking for and buying wands. I doubt the playes would really pass it up.
Sidenote- Wands are still better for time, although only when a few moments are important. So when you have 10 min/level buffs going on. And even then, a spare wand of CLWcan be better for "THERE IS NO TIME!" healing (especially when you are just patching up one guy).
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You might want to warn the person doing this in advance if you suddenly decide to add negative effects. Surprise punishments aren't exactly a nice thing to pull off on one's players.
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I'd recommend using the alignment charting system from Ultimate Campaign. In my games, a truly good character would not want to cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor.
With infernal healing, I play it such that the spell actually creates a link with a living devil that transfers the devil's Fast Healing ability to the recipient. This literally links the recipient's soul to that devil for a minute, and some of the devil's personality rubs off. I play this by telling the player of the recipient that images of tempting sins run through her mind. [e.g. "You feel the dark power course through your body as your wound knit themselves back together. You also recall that merchant from this morning, and how he seemed distracted while helping a customer... He even turned away from you while you were examining that necklace. You're thinking that you should have just pocketed it, because such a fool doesn't really deserve to keep items he's not watching...right?")
That said, warn the player of the tiefling that evil acts can have consequences if he continues to rely on an evil spell.
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I receive visions of Evil and malice... and totally ignore them because I'm a Good person, healing to full and continuing on my unending quest to save orphanages.
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I receive visions of Evil and malice... and totally ignore them because I'm a Good person, healing to full and continuing on my unending quest to save orphanages.
And then, year in, year out, taking fiend's blood to heal. You still receive the visions... but they're making so much more sense. Everything in your life is... wrong. You know you're being watched, being judged. You've saved those orphans time and time again, and no one trusts you. No one appreciates you.
So why not wait a little while. Let them be afraid. Let them see the monsters coming for them. Let them know they're doomed without you.
When their souls are laid bare, they'll beg for your help.
You're still a good man. A good man helps save orphanages, and you save orphanages.
It doesn't matter why you're doing it. Even if it's just to hear them beg, you'll still save them.
And if you get hurt, it will just take another drop.
Evil. It's a hell of a drug.
I receive visions of Evil and malice... and totally ignore them because I'm a Good person, healing to full and continuing on my unending quest to save orphanages.And then, year in, year out, taking fiend's blood to heal. You still receive the visions... but they're making so much more sense. Everything in your life is... wrong. You know you're being watched, being judged. You've saved those orphans time and time again, and no one trusts you. No one appreciates you.
So why not wait a little while. Let them be afraid. Let them see the monsters coming for them. Let them know they're doomed without you.
When their souls are laid bare, they'll beg for your help.
You're still a good man. A good man helps save orphanages, and you save orphanages.
It doesn't matter why you're doing it. Even if it's just to hear them beg, you'll still save them.
And if you get hurt, it will just take another drop.
Evil. It's a hell of a drug.
Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...
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Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...
Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
Going to be a lot of infernal bloodlines and tieflings in that family if the character ever finds someone to procreate with.
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Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
And this is why Pragmatism is the only real Good. Idealistic Good isn't hard, it's falling down drunk easy and only helps the Idealistic Good person feel good about themselves.
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I receive visions of Evil and malice... and totally ignore them because I'm a Good person, healing to full and continuing on my unending quest to save orphanages.And then, year in, year out, taking fiend's blood to heal. You still receive the visions... but they're making so much more sense. Everything in your life is... wrong. You know you're being watched, being judged. You've saved those orphans time and time again, and no one trusts you. No one appreciates you.
So why not wait a little while. Let them be afraid. Let them see the monsters coming for them. Let them know they're doomed without you.
When their souls are laid bare, they'll beg for your help.
You're still a good man. A good man helps save orphanages, and you save orphanages.
It doesn't matter why you're doing it. Even if it's just to hear them beg, you'll still save them.
And if you get hurt, it will just take another drop.
Evil. It's a hell of a drug.
You know what would make you an even better person? Saving even more orphanages. It is just a pity there are so few orphanages on fire. Someone should do something about that...
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And this is why Pragmatism is the only real Good. Idealistic Good isn't hard, it's falling down drunk easy and only helps the Idealistic Good person feel good about themselves.Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
Pragmatism taken to extremes leads to a place most would be uncomfortable calling "good." I'm not sure killing 99 orphans to save 100 is exactly "good" although it is pragmatic. It would be pragmatic to randomly murder healthy people and harvest their organs to save multiple sick people each, but that's pretty much evil in most people's view.
Moral philosophy is not exactly a "finished" field... I don't think we can definitively make blanket statements about one set of precepts being better than others. People have argued about this sort of thing for literal millennia.
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And this is why Pragmatism is the only real Good. Idealistic Good isn't hard, it's falling down drunk easy and only helps the Idealistic Good person feel good about themselves.Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
Pragmatism taken to extremes leads to a place most would be uncomfortable calling "good." I'm not sure killing 99 orphans to save 100 is exactly "good" although it is pragmatic. It would be pragmatic to randomly murder healthy people and harvest their organs to save multiple sick people each, but that's pretty much evil in most people's view.
Moral philosophy is not exactly a "finished" field... I don't think we can definitively make blanket statements about one set of precepts being better than others. People have argued about this sort of thing for literal millennia.
Killing 99 to save 100 probably not. Letting 99 die so you can save 100 is what crisis relief doctors do all the time. And while the jury (whoever it/they are) on morality may be out, the good idealist who refused to use evil methods to save 10,000 is not the person those 10,000 people need. Therefore, for the people who actually need saving, the idealist might as well not exist. What is the sound of one idealist doing nothing anyway?
And this is why Pragmatism is the only real Good. Idealistic Good isn't hard, it's falling down drunk easy and only helps the Idealistic Good person feel good about themselves.Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
...infernal healing is only slighty more useful than CLW.
You have options. You just sell your soul too cheaply to use them. You are too cheap to buy regular medicine since you find almost literally SNORTING DEVIL BLOOD is slightly easier.
The few extra gold spent on healing options is most likely not going to kill you. After the first few levels, healing wands are a tiny part of your wealth (especially since they are a whole party expense). This is not killing 99 orphans to save 100, it is spending an extra $10 on shoes that were not sewn together by children in a sweat shop, or spending extra for the chocolate that you know was not farmed by child slave labor (both of those are 'pragmatic' for those businesses since it lets them sell their goods at a lower price).
Good isn't about the easy answer. It is about taking the right one, and never settling for anything less.
And this is why Pragmatism is the only real Good. Idealistic Good isn't hard, it's falling down drunk easy and only helps the Idealistic Good person feel good about themselves.Of course, if the alternative is to let all those orphans die...Depends on whether or not the setting accepts the idea of practicality vs. idealism. A good idealist will allow 10,000 orphans to die before engaging in evil tactics to save them. A good pragmatist will go all boddhisatva and lock himself out of heaven to save other people.
...infernal healing is only slighty more useful than CLW.
You have options. You just sell your soul too cheaply to use them. Good isn't about the easy answer. It is about taking the right one, and never settling for anything less.
And what makes Infernal Healing evil other then an arbitrary clause? And if you save enough on wands then you will ultimately help more people. You can purge the sweat shop owners later.
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I am not entirely on the 'fall for using infernal healing' side, but arguing that it is a 'good' act is a bit excessive. At best, the decision between IH and CLW is a neutral action.
You can save just as many orphans with CLW as infernal healing, since you only need to stabilize them and perhaps get them to 1 hp. When it comes to low level NPCs that you are not putting on the front lines anyway, it is VERY easy to get them from 'dying' to 'he's FINE, lets go'.
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And what makes Infernal Healing evil other then an arbitrary clause? And if you save enough on wands then you will ultimately help more people. You can purge the sweat shop owners later.
Nothing. It was a spell designed specifically to lure otherwise good people into evil. The [evil] descriptor is actually the primary point for the spells designer.
This thread is an excellent showcase of how well it works and how people will rationalize doing evil.
And what makes Infernal Healing evil other then an arbitrary clause? And if you save enough on wands then you will ultimately help more people. You can purge the sweat shop owners later.Nothing. It was a spell designed specifically to lure otherwise good people into evil. The [evil] descriptor is actually the primary point for the spells designer.
This thread is an excellent showcase of how well it works and how people will rationalize doing evil.
Except it's not. Just because something is labeled as Evil doesn't make it so. As is it is simply a way to heal people. There's nothing evil about that. Therefore, the spell is not evil despite what it's label claims. No one is rationalizing Evil here. The spell just isn't Evil.
he is Chaotic Good. He plays his character according to his alignment
No he doesn't.
Imagine, in real life. If the devil (yeah, the one Christians believe exists) suddenly popped into your living room and said "Here, I will teach you a wickedly evil magic ritual, a spell birthed in the depths of Hell, and this bottle of demon's blood. You can use this spell to heal injured people. When you do, you will summoning the Powers of Hell to work through you, yes, you will be a puppet of Hell. Of ME! The person you heal will feel all the demons of Hell entering his flesh through the demon blood you smeared on him and coursing through his body and filling him with pure evil. Do you want this power? I give it to you. No strings attached. Really. So, do you want it? Hmmmmmmm?"
I know lots of good people. None of them would even dream of taking that offer. Not one. They would believe, and know it in their hearts, that taking that offer from the devil would mean they become an evil servant of the devil and are forever banished from any kind of heavenly afterlife. They would never doubt that.
And these IRL good people live in a world where heaven and hell are concepts only dreamed about as an act of faith. Imagine Golarion where these places are real, demons and angels are real, people have seen them and been there and touched them all the time and it doesn't take faith to know about them at all.
Now imagine a "good" person, chaotic or otherwise, actually WANTING to use Infernal Healing?
I submit that anyone who WANTS to use this spell or any other spell with an EVIL descriptor is not really "good" at all, no matter what they wrote on their sheet. Writing "CG" on a character sheet and then calling upon infernal powers to do your bidding is not really compatible.
No, this player is not role-playing a CG character at all.
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he is Chaotic Good. He plays his character according to his alignmentNo he doesn't.
Imagine, in real life. If the devil (yeah, the one Christians believe exists) suddenly popped into your living room and said "Here, I will teach you a wickedly evil magic ritual, a spell birthed in the depths of Hell, and this bottle of demon's blood. You can use this spell to heal injured people. When you do, you will summoning the Powers of Hell to work through you, yes, you will be a puppet of Hell. Of ME! The person you heal will feel all the demons of Hell entering his flesh through the demon blood you smeared on him and coursing through his body and filling him with pure evil. Do you want this power? I give it to you. No strings attached. Really. So, do you want it? Hmmmmmmm?"
I know lots of good people. None of them would even dream of taking that offer. Not one. They would believe, and know it in their hearts, that taking that offer from the devil would mean they become an evil servant of the devil and are forever banished from any kind of heavenly afterlife. They would never doubt that.
And these IRL good people live in a world where heaven and hell are concepts only dreamed about as an act of faith. Imagine Golarion where these places are real, demons and angels are real, people have seen them and been there and touched them all the time and it doesn't take faith to know about them at all.
Now imagine a "good" person, chaotic or otherwise, actually WANTING to use Infernal Healing?
I submit that anyone who WANTS to use this spell or any other spell with an EVIL descriptor is not really "good" at all, no matter what they wrote on their sheet. Writing "CG" on a character sheet and then calling upon infernal powers to do your bidding is not really compatible.
No, this player is not role-playing a CG character at all.
Uh.. the spell doesn't do any of that. If it did you might have something resembling a point.
To clarify, lets look at what the spell actually does:
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.
For starters the first clause just makes people heal fast. Yay, awesome. The second clause specifies wounds that can't be healed. Boo. The third clause makes the target detect as Evil (but does not make them Evil) and can sense the magic is evil. However, there are no consequences to using it other then discomfort so no problem.
I say this is perfectly CG. Now to refine your question: If the Devil popped in and said "Here you can use this spell free of charge, as it's described in this book here." Then the only practical answer to that is to take it. And then make the Devil regret it. It doesn't make you Evil or them Evil. Unless you want to say using Evil spells makes you Evil, in which case I'll just cast a few Protection from Evils to balance it out. Some people might believe their going to hell for taking that deal, but there's terrible people that believe people will go to hell over enough other silly things that we can safely ignore those people.
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the effect is you used an evil spell, and people might care or something.
edit: like apparently some people in this thread.
the effect is you used an evil spell, and people might care or something.
Eh, if they do that's their fault/problem.
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if a demon gave me powers to heal people, and on the contract it said "no strings attached you're not even damned or selling your soul or anything", i'd probably think that he's just being a rebellious devil or I might think he's trying to weaken an opposing devil that has a claim on the evil souls in my area or something.
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As to the OP's question about what he can do, well, the first and foremost thing a GM is required to do is create and tell a fun story. We buy dozens of rulebooks so that we can figure out mechanical rules to apply to our story, but always, the story comes first.
So what if there are no mechanics within the rulebooks to tell you which dice to roll and what chart to look on to determine which condition to afflict this character. You're a GM; you don't need that.
Just have the story be your tool for, well, you don't want to "punish" him so let's just say for "giving him what he deserves"...
Some day, later in life, the whole world suddenly finds out that this spell was a trap. Asmodeus created this spell and sent it to Golarion because he had a huge and awful plan. Every arcane caster who ever used this spell is now fully under Asmodeus' control - including the PC in question. But since you're not a bad GM, you have a get-out-of-jail-free card for your player in the form of a Solar who arrives and, because this PC was always CG and deceived by Asmodeus, he gives the PC an artifact that temporarily grants him immunity. It will only last for 666 hours (27 days, 16 hours). Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.
Of course, when the Solar arrives with the artifact, he should have very strict words with this "chaotic good" character who was stupid enough to call upon evil powers and wipe demon's blood on people just so he could fill them with terribly evil infernal healing. What the Nine Hells was everybody thinking? Any idiot should have known this was all a trap. Stupid mortal fools. Maybe next time, "chaotic good" characters should call upon celestial powers instead...
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As to the OP's question about what he can do, well, the first and foremost thing a GM is required to do is create and tell a fun story. We buy dozens of rulebooks so that we can figure out mechanical rules to apply to our story, but always, the story comes first.
So what if there are no mechanics within the rulebooks to tell you which dice to roll and what chart to look on to determine which condition to afflict this character. You're a GM; you don't need that.
Just have the story be your tool for, well, you don't want to "punish" him so let's just say for "giving him what he deserves"...
Some day, later in life, the whole world suddenly finds out that this spell was a trap. Asmodeus created this spell and sent it to Golarion because he had a huge and awful plan. Every arcane caster who ever used this spell is now fully under Asmodeus' control - including the PC in question. But since you're not a bad GM, you have a get-out-of-jail-free card for your player in the form of a Solar who arrives and, because this PC was always CG and deceived by Asmodeus, he gives the PC an artifact that temporarily grants him immunity. It will only last for 666 hours (27 days, 16 hours). Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.
Of course, when the Solar arrives with the artifact, he should have very strict words with this "chaotic good" character who was stupid enough to call upon evil powers and wipe demon's blood on people just so he could fill them with terribly evil infernal healing. What the Nine Hells was everybody thinking? Any idiot should have known this was all a trap. Stupid mortal fools. Maybe next time, "chaotic good" characters should call upon celestial powers instead...
The Rules don't support this. The GM is a jerk and your argument is meaningless.
@DM_Blake, at the very least don't blind side people with afflictions.
*totes wouldn't decline the artifact, and just start worshiping Asmodeus and become lawful evil if the GM did this.
if a demon gave me powers to heal people, and on the contract it said "no strings attached you're not even damned or selling your soul or anything", i'd probably think that he's just being a rebellious devil or I might think he's trying to weaken an opposing devil that has a claim on the evil souls in my area or something.
A.) That is horribly short sighted. Giving them that much credit is exactly how they drive you into a corner. Never give devils or genies that much credit. The only real defense against scam artist is to never give them the time of day.
B.) Do you really want to be part of infernal politics? And I don't mean as a PC that can kill anything level appropriate, I mean a s a level 1 commoner with UMD (cause nothing is level appropriate for you)
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By the rules, there is no concrete effect when you cast a Good spell or an Evil one. The only reason those labels (along with Lawful and Chaotic) exist on spells by RAW is to limit the repertoire of Clerics and Inquisitors (and other classes with alignment restrictions), who are not allowed to cast spells of opposing alignment. There really isn't much more to it in the Core Rulebook. And unless someone can provide me with proof to the contrary, I will stick with my stance on this, since it is supported by the rules in the actual book.
if a demon gave me powers to heal people, and on the contract it said "no strings attached you're not even damned or selling your soul or anything", i'd probably think that he's just being a rebellious devil or I might think he's trying to weaken an opposing devil that has a claim on the evil souls in my area or something.A.) That is horribly short sighted. Giving them that much credit is exactly how they drive you into a corner. Never give devils or genies that much credit. The only real defense against scam artist is to never give them the time of day.
B.) Do you really want to be part of infernal politics? And I don't mean as a PC that can kill anything level appropriate, I mean a s a level 1 commoner with UMD (cause nothing is level appropriate for you)
always play the devils against each other.
also, i'm assuming a contract.
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As to the OP's question about what he can do, well, the first and foremost thing a GM is required to do is create and tell a fun story. We buy dozens of rulebooks so that we can figure out mechanical rules to apply to our story, but always, the story comes first.
So what if there are no mechanics within the rulebooks to tell you which dice to roll and what chart to look on to determine which condition to afflict this character. You're a GM; you don't need that.
Just have the story be your tool for, well, you don't want to "punish" him so let's just say for "giving him what he deserves"...
Some day, later in life, the whole world suddenly finds out that this spell was a trap. Asmodeus created this spell and sent it to Golarion because he had a huge and awful plan. Every arcane caster who ever used this spell is now fully under Asmodeus' control - including the PC in question. But since you're not a bad GM, you have a get-out-of-jail-free card for your player in the form of a Solar who arrives and, because this PC was always CG and deceived by Asmodeus, he gives the PC an artifact that temporarily grants him immunity. It will only last for 666 hours (27 days, 16 hours). Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.
Of course, when the Solar arrives with the artifact, he should have very strict words with this "chaotic good" character who was stupid enough to call upon evil powers and wipe demon's blood on people just so he could fill them with terribly evil infernal healing. What the Nine Hells was everybody thinking? Any idiot should have known this was all a trap. Stupid mortal fools. Maybe next time, "chaotic good" characters should call upon celestial powers instead...
And naturally no other god had a clue that this was coming, despite the fact that casters all over the place are using the spell repeatedly so the gods should have been distinctly aware of the spell's existance, and at least one of them should have had enough brain cells to rub together to actually take a quick look over the spell and notice it's "bonus" effect. Unless 1st level arcane spellcasters can normally learn and cast spells that fool gods. All the gods.
Yep, that makes sense.
if a demon gave me powers to heal people, and on the contract it said "no strings attached you're not even damned or selling your soul or anything", i'd probably think that he's just being a rebellious devil or I might think he's trying to weaken an opposing devil that has a claim on the evil souls in my area or something.A.) That is horribly short sighted. Giving them that much credit is exactly how they drive you into a corner. Never give devils or genies that much credit. The only real defense against scam artist is to never give them the time of day.
B.) Do you really want to be part of infernal politics? And I don't mean as a PC that can kill anything level appropriate, I mean a s a level 1 commoner with UMD (cause nothing is level appropriate for you)
There's no downside for you in that deal, period. Undoubtedly, the Devil has an ulterior motive for giving that power. But so what? That doesn't make you using it Evil. Even if it ultimately accomplishes whatever "ridiculously circuitous plan" the Devil has devised provided you didn't actually do anything Evil while unintentionally accomplishing it.
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The Rules don't support this. The GM is a jerk and your argument is meaningless.
"Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor."
The converse is true as well, if a spell is evil, it draws upon evil powers.
"Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts ... with alignment"
So yes, it is very much in the rules that [evil] spells are, evil and that they interact with alignment.
Occasionally of course a good person does a bad thing, and they are still a good person. However, someone who repeatedly and knowingly chooses to do a bad thing isn't really good anymore.
Infernal Healing was developed by Asmodeus, and he didn't do it because he is a lovable guy who doesn't want anyone to be hurt.
Balance wise, there probably isn't a good reason to have a non-evil version of the spell. However, in this case the flavor is the point of this particular spell.
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The Rules don't support this. The GM is a jerk and your argument is meaningless."Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor."
The converse is true as well, if a spell is evil, it draws upon evil powers.
"Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts ... with alignment"
So yes, it is very much in the rules that [evil] spells are, evil and that they interact with alignment.
Occasionally of course a good person does a bad thing, and they are still a good person. However, someone who repeatedly and knowingly chooses to do a bad thing isn't really good anymore.
Infernal Healing was developed by Asmodeus, and he didn't do it because he is a lovable guy who doesn't want anyone to be hurt.
Balance wise, there probably isn't a good reason to have a non-evil version of the spell. However, in this case the flavor is the point of this particular spell.
Drawing on Evil power doesn't make you Evil any more then drawing on Electric Power makes you Lightning. And while the rules govern how the spells interact with alignments, there is zero indication in the rules that casting them can change your alignment. In the event you want to houserule casting spells with Alignment changes your alignment, I look forward to easy Evil to Good conversion thanks to Protection from Evil.
Drawing on Evil power doesn't make you Evil any more then drawing on Electric Power makes you Lightning.
so my experiments have been for naught? *drops to knees hands in the air* NOOOOOOOOO
Uh.. the spell doesn't do any of that. If it did you might have something resembling a point.
The spell does ALL of that. Every bit of it.
Here's what I wrote, broken into sections:
Here, I will teach you a wickedly evil magic ritual, a spell birthed in the depths of Hell, and this bottle of demon's blood. You can use this spell to heal injured people.
I'm pretty sure you're not disputing this part; it's in the text of the spell.
When you do, you will summoning the Powers of Hell to work through you, yes, you will be a puppet of Hell. Of ME!
Infernal Healing actually does have the [evil] descriptor. Almost no spells have that. You can blow people up, burn them to ash, disintegrate them to dust, dominate them and turn them into your slaves forever, etc. Heck, you can even use really awful necromancy spells like Enervation to drain their life force, Vampiric Touch to suck their life force out of them and into you, and Bestow Curse to, well, curse them.
None of the above have the [evil] descriptor. You can do lots of horrible things to other creatures without using any spells with that descriptor.
But Infernal Healing has the [evil] descriptor. Per RAW, this means it is, in fact, drawing upon evil powers. In ways that those other things I just mentioned are not.
Maybe the "puppet" part was a bit overboard, but it certainly is implied when you use an evil spell to call upon the powers of Hell. The rest of it is RAW.
The person you heal will feel all the demons of Hell entering his flesh through the demon blood you smeared on him and coursing through his body and filling him with pure evil.
The spell text says:
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic
So, yeah, maybe I over-described it. I don't know what it would feel like to have evil magic filling my body and healing my wounds. But the spell says I can sense the evil of it and since there is really no other spell, anywhere in the game, that says that, it must be pretty special. I can have my life Enervated or Vampirically Touched out of me without sensing the evil of the magic. I can watch a person summon a demon and I won't sense the evil of the magic.
This is it, the only spell, the one spell, where I will sense the evil of the magic. And I have demon's blood on my face.
So ARE the demons of hell coursing through my body? No, assuredly not. But I feel like all the demons of hell coursing through my body? Maybe - sounds like a fair description to me.
Do you want this power? I give it to you. No strings attached. Really. So, do you want it? Hmmmmmmm?"
Someone mentioned contract. This is no contract. It's words. From the devil. It means nothing. If you take his power and use it, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Well, you could also blame the devil, but really, he's just doing what he does; you should have been smarter. Or wiser. Or something.
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The main point of infernal healing is that it's a completely innocuous, helpful spell, that happens to be channeling the power of Hell. And you get to feel it.
You get to get used to it =P
Asmodeus wants you to go "eh, I don't see what the big deal is" and keep using the spell, and others like it. (With the big pay off of someone eventually getting something like the create undead line, going "whatever, evil, schmevil" and going right on with using spells that are actually atrocious. (Along all the various potentially horrible spells that don't actually have an alignment descriptor. After all, if the actually Evil spell is apparently harmless to your soul, misuse of, say, dominate, should be harmless, right?))
He's infinitely patient. He'll wait.
(Though the Evil descriptor does mean the spell is completely off limits for classes that need to care about that sort of thing, like most (though not all - hi oracles!) good-aligned divine casters.
Arcane casters not normally needing to care about alignment descriptors is one of the perks of being an arcane caster.)
In short, infernal healing in of itself won't do anything, because the entire point is that it won't do anything of itself. It's meant to help foster an attitude of "eh, evil really isn't that bad, I should rely on it more."
if there's no mention of a contract and there's a devil in my living room, i'm calling the local priest. "hi yes, i need to have my house exercised the devil... yes he's in my living room again... yes yes i'll make a donation after the work is done."
turned out to be a wizard working with a cleric to gain more donations. they should be ashamed.
Drawing on Evil power doesn't make you Evil any more then drawing on Electric Power makes you Lightning. And while the rules govern how the spells interact with alignments, there is zero indication in the rules that casting them can change your alignment. In the event you want to houserule casting spells with Alignment changes your alignment, I look forward to easy Evil to Good conversion thanks to Protection from Evil.
Of course not.
I already said there are no mechanical rules for this.
We all know that you don't turn evil by using [evil] spells.
I was talking about the role-playing angle the whole time. I believe a "good" character would not draw on evil powers. That's a line that good characters don't cross.
If you read the SRD page on alignment, you won't see "call upon infernal powers" or even anything remotely like that listed in the "Chaotic Good" section, but you will find things like that in the "Neutral Good" section and, of course, in the "Neutral" and "Evil" alignments.
And again, while there is no RAW way to say "Page xxx, paragraph yyy says your alignment has turns 27.3% evil", it seems fairly clear to me that Paizo's alignment descriptions, as well as common sense (as uncommon as it is) suggest that a chaotic good character who CHOOSES to use this spell is not behaving in a chaotic good fashion.