|
I dream of a varisian belly dancer with two starknives whirling like a dervish through combat. It is still going to be a dream.
I would gladly lose stunning fist, and other class features to have a Monk or brawler archetype that specifically channeled their power through weapons, and the weapon benefited from either Ki focus or close weapon mastery starting at level 1. A way I imagine doing this is to make an archetype that focuses on using a deities' favored weapon.
Well, seeing as how I can only use PFS legal stuff; many of the things I could use come close but fail in short order.
The dervish archetypes are bent on using one scimitar.
The flying blade swashbuckler has one fatal flaw, the weapon only deals 1d4 damage and doesn't increase with level.
also, as this is PFS; the character has to have the desired trait to start or gain them quickly! nothing worse than seeing a dozen class features that are poor/mediocre to be followed up by a level 13+ AWESOME feature that will never be in play.
flying blade would be great for you. Who cares about weapon dice, it's unimportant. You add you dex to damage, you get piranha strikes, you get other sources of damage and damage dice is largely unimportant, and would never increase for almost anyone in any case.
|
|
The following was a recommendation regarding this build:
NG Human
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 14
1. Knife master rogue 1. Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (B)
2. Knife master rogue 2. Combat talent (Two-Weapon Fighting)
3. Knife master rogue 3. Piranha Strike, finesse training
4. Weapon Master Fighter 1. Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Master Fighter 2. Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
6. Knife master rogue 4. TALENT
7. Weapon Master Fighter 3. Weapon Focus (starknife)
8. Weapon Master Fighter 4. Weapon Specialization (starknife)
9. Weapon Master Fighter 5. Improved Critical (starknife)
10. Weapon Master Fighter 6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Weapon Master Fighter 7. FEAT
12. Weapon Master Fighter 8. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Personally, I like this effort as it is PFS legal as I had asked.
Weapon dice/damage dice Do indeed matter; you don't see barbarian's and fighters taking on dragons with only a drinking straw...
My original idea is to have a brawler or monk archetype that Channels their unarmed combat ability (ala Ki focus/close weapon mastery) through their weapons. Why, So that the weapons can be effective at first level and continue to gain effectiveness as the character levels. The closest I can find to my idea is the HARROW WARDEN monk archetype, but this is unsatisfactory as the earliest I could gain the two required Ki foci would be about 10th level.
Thirty adventures is a LONG TIME to sit on your hands before you can suddenly do cool stuff.
|
If you want the character's damage dice to increase, consider the Warpriest.
But the point is that the static modifiers will greatly outpace the variable damage dice. Going from 1d4 (starknife) to 2d6 (greataxe) is equivalent to a +5 static bonus (in terms of expected damage). The +5 is relatively easy to achieve.
In fact, in the build above that I gave you, you get a +5 bonus to damage going from 2nd-level to 3rd-level, just by changing from Str-to-damage to Dex-to-damage.
|
|
More about the build above:
This one comes online at level 3. You do need to suffer through two levels of not much damage. That is unfortunate. Maybe someone can find a way around that.
At level 3, your melee attack (assuming mwk starknives) is
Melee mwk starknife +6 (1d4+6/x3), or
2 mwk starknives +4/+4 (1d4+6/1d4+3/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack (+2d8)
If you can get flanking and successfully sneak attack with both starknives, you will average about 23 points of damage.
Edit: now that I'm looking more closely at this build (which I threw together hastily), I would probably suggest tossing out the 4th level of rogue. It isn't doing much for you.
Any BAB+1 class would be fine there instead, including another level of fighter.
|
|
If you want the character's damage dice to increase, consider the Warpriest.
But the point is that the static modifiers will greatly outpace the variable damage dice. Going from 1d4 (starknife) to 2d6 (greataxe) is equivalent to a +5 static bonus (in terms of expected damage). The +5 is relatively easy to achieve.
In fact, in the build above that I gave you, you get a +5 bonus to damage going from 2nd-level to 3rd-level, just by changing from Str-to-damage to Dex-to-damage.
could you look at another idea I had: MAGUS ARCHETYPE SWORDSOUL.
|
|
In fact, in the build above that I gave you, you get a +5 bonus to damage going from 2nd-level to 3rd-level, just by changing from Str-to-damage to Dex-to-damage.
Alternately I could with 3 levels unchained rogue, Some fighter, and then monk archetype Harrow Warden...
4 levels of monk and Ki Foci would mean the starknives deal 1d8 damage each (*possibly more, I dunno). I like rolling all the same damage dice.|
|
More about the build above: Any BAB+1 class would be fine there instead, including another level of fighter.
also, what do you think of these two ideas?
Brawler intrigue archetypes
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The following was a recommendation regarding this build:
NG Human
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 141. Knife master rogue 1. Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (B)
2. Knife master rogue 2. Combat talent (Two-Weapon Fighting)
3. Knife master rogue 3. Piranha Strike, finesse training
4. Weapon Master Fighter 1. Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Master Fighter 2. Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
6. Knife master rogue 4. TALENT
7. Weapon Master Fighter 3. Weapon Focus (starknife)
8. Weapon Master Fighter 4. Weapon Specialization (starknife)
9. Weapon Master Fighter 5. Improved Critical (starknife)
10. Weapon Master Fighter 6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Weapon Master Fighter 7. FEAT
12. Weapon Master Fighter 8. Greater Two-Weapon FightingPersonally, I like this effort as it is PFS legal as I had asked.
Weapon dice/damage dice Do indeed matter; you don't see barbarian's and fighters taking on dragons with only a drinking straw...My original idea is to have a brawler or monk archetype that Channels their unarmed combat ability (ala Ki focus/close weapon mastery) through their weapons. Why, So that the weapons can be effective at first level and continue to gain effectiveness as the character levels. The closest I can find to my idea is the HARROW WARDEN monk archetype, but this is unsatisfactory as the earliest I could gain the two required Ki foci would be about 10th level.
Thirty adventures is a LONG TIME to sit on your hands before you can suddenly do cool stuff.
The Unchained Rogue varient gets Dex to damage at 3rd level and Finesse as a bonus at 1st, so it's probably a better option than the 'original' rogue (should still be compatible with Knife Master, though I haven't looked at it that closely). Honestly, it's probably one of your best better options, but reliance on Sneak Attacks can be problematic in PFS when your group composition can be rather random.
From what I can see, the Flying Blade does NOT get Dex to damage with Star Knifes: Slashing Grace specifically states it has to be a 'One Handed Weapon' and Starknifes are Light Weapons (although I might be spliting a non-existant hair here). You do get to add your Swashbucker level to damage once you hit level 3, so it's not completely horrible, but it will take a while for damage to ramp up.
Warpriest, as suggested earlier, is probably the way to go if you want bigger weapon dice. A one level dip will move your base damage from 1d4 to 1d6, but this is probably not a particularly good idea since the other options discussed have their own level-based damage scaling. As a non-dip, it's probably not a bad option for what you are trying to achieve, but the lack of Dexterity to Damage will probably hurt a good bit.
EDIT: Okay, looking over the suggested build more closely, it looks like it is already using the Unchained variant.
You really like damage dice eh? When someone is doing 1d4 + 40 you don't say oh you are using a 1d4 weapon you suck, instead they are fearing the +40 damage.
However if damage dice are super duper important to you for aesthetic reasons (I guess) Then go war priest of desna is what you should do. be human and put your favored class bonus towards extra feats and you will have more feats than you know what to do with, and you will easily be able to get dex to damage and your damage dice will increase regularly because you are a war priest.
dex to damage the most reliable way is to just make your weapons agile, expensive, but once it's done it's done and you didn't use a feat.
dex to damage the most reliable way is to just make your weapons agile, expensive, but once it's done it's done and you didn't use a feat.
No, three levels of Unchained Rogue is the most reliable. Comes online at level 3, and Dispel Magic doesn't stop EX class features.
|
|
EDIT: Okay, looking over the suggested build more closely, it looks like it is already using the Unchained variant.
Yeah, I built this using the Unchained rogue. The OP didn't pull that part of my original post over from the other thread where this first popped up.
There are still many improvements that can be made for this build, though.
|
|
Edit: now that I'm looking more closely at this build (which I threw together hastily), I would probably suggest tossing out the 4th level of rogue. It isn't doing much for you.
that 4th level of rogue is getting you debilitating strike. I would keep it if you are getting sneak attacks at all reliably.
|
|
The 'level 3' part is very important in PFS:dex to damage the most reliable way is to just make your weapons agile, expensive, but once it's done it's done and you didn't use a feat.No, three levels of Unchained Rogue is the most reliable. Comes online at level 3, and Dispel Magic doesn't stop EX class features.
- Under the 'assumed' Fame progression, PFS characters are able to upgrade to a +2 weapon at the start of Level 7.
- If you manage to not miss a single point of Fame while leveling, you could upgrade before starting your last adventure at level 5.
- PFS play basically stops when you hit level 12, so you are going to play a very large portion of your career without a weapon of +2 enchant or better.
So, yes, Unchained Rogue seems to be one of the best options, both in time and resources required.
|
|
that 4th level of rogue is getting you debilitating strike. I would keep it if you are getting sneak attacks at all reliably.
Edit: now that I'm looking more closely at this build (which I threw together hastily), I would probably suggest tossing out the 4th level of rogue. It isn't doing much for you.
That's true.
I might swap the order of some of the feats.
I'd probably swap Improved Critical and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
I might also swap Two-Weapon Fighting and Piranha Strike (maybe).
|
|
So if your willing to amend your idea, drop one of the star knives, so that your only welding one, other option open up to you. Such as a magus or swashbuckler.
There is a very nice magus archetype in the Varisia player companion.
Kapenia DancerShe uses a bladed scarf, and can wield it one-handed.
|
|
Warpriest:
Unchained rogue:is there yet another way?
Unchained Knife Fighter Rogue seems to be your best option: IF you can pull off sneak attacks, your damage scales 2.25 / level on average (and yes, that is a big 'if')
Warpriest has the following issues:
- The bigger weapon dice is essentially only +1 weapon damage / 4 levels
- The 'Sacred Weapon (Su)' is only 1 round per class level and has to be split between your weapons if dual-wielding, so you're not going to get a lot of use out of it each day. Assuming you don't play after 11, it's never going to be more than a +2 bonus.
- You'll need to put some of your stat points into Wisdom to get use out of your spells, which could be difficult considering you probably want high Dexterity and Charisma for your skills
- 2 Skill Points per level will be problematic with a 'dancer' theme (you're probably going to want Acrobatics and some social skills, so you're pretty much over-budget all ready)
- Warpriests have a glut of desirable Swift actions (self buff / sacred weapon / sacred armor) and only one swift action per round.
On the Plus Side, they do get:
- Cleric Spells
- Blessings
- Access to Weapon Specialization and other Fighter Only Feats
- A few Bonus Combat feats
One other thought is a brief dip into Unchained Barbarian: Unchained Rage is a flat +2 hit and damage, the extra 10' of movement might be useful, and the the extra HP and BAB is never bad.
|
|
So if your willing to amend your idea, drop one of the star knives, so that your only welding one, other option open up to you. Such as a magus or swashbuckler.There is a very nice magus archetype in the Varisia player companion.
Kapenia DancerShe uses a bladed scarf, and can wield it one-handed.
I like this a lot! It doesn't dervish dance with a pair of starknife and ramp up the damage, but I really like this.
Perhaps all this could be circumvented if one of the Dervish types could weapons other than the scimitar, use the two weapon fighting feats, and ramp up the damage some.
...might make one heck of an archetype for the warpriest?
|
|
Dip a level of swashbuckler and take Slashing Grace. The Dervish Dancer Bard is also pretty good, especially after 6th level.
Human Kapenia Dancer/Swashbuckler/Dervish Dancer Bard (not the Dawnflower Dervish)
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
Go with 1 level of each of those for your first three levels, then pick one of the classes and stick with it until level 12. They all have good things at higher levels.
I assume you didn't find it, and it would require you to go Core Monk as opposed to Unchained (till they possibly update the archetypes?), and I honestly don't know if its legal for PFS and don't know where to find that out, but Harrow Warden couldn't fit what you're looking for better.
The Sohei Monk is able to pick up Weapon Training: Thrown Weapons at level 6, which allows you to use Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike with a Starknife - and lets you use Dueling Gloves too, bumping you way up past the normal Monk level of attack. You have to wait until 6, but otherwise it seems exactly what you're looking for (you could always just act like it's a pair of knives for flavor).
As far as the Warpriest goes, the real benefit isn't weapon dice damage but bonus feats and swift-action Divine Favor. When you add up all the little ways in which the Warpriest can add to their offense, it's a substantial package. A strength-based Warpriest with just enough dex for Improved TWF isn't that hard to pull off, and it has some major advantages over trying to work with dexterity - not least that you're 'online' from level 1.
|
|
I assume you didn't find it, and it would require you to go Core Monk as opposed to Unchained (till they possibly update the archetypes?), and I honestly don't know if its legal for PFS and don't know where to find that out, but Harrow Warden couldn't fit what you're looking for better.
Actually, this was one of the first concept's I'd been trying.
Yes, the Harrow monk does treat starknives as monk weapons. this means the harrow monk can use star knives with flurry of blows, but again you end up with d4 straight. at higher levels this is *NOT* going to pass the smell test, especially as your unarmed damage continues to improve but your weapons ... do not.
The Far-strike monk does some stuff, but doesn't do starknives or melee.
If I start with 1st level Harrow monk and then MC and stay brawler...
I remain uncertain what features would apply/carry over. The Brawler doesn't improve starknives either, and even if she did close weapon mastery would only start at 5th Total levels and only bump the d4 to a d6.
A PFS character stuck with d4 damage until 6th? I may as well be a magic missile specialist sort of Sorc/wiz/arc, or something. it is a bit off putting that some of the features I do like about several classes, just do not allow/work with starknives.
I am considering an elf magus kensai-spelldancer, as that would cover the awesome movement I would like to have, but...
I would be limited to one weapon and that weapon Needs to have a much larger damage die and critical threat range to benefit the Magus at all.
The bladed scarf dancer archetype is full of awesome too; again doesn't use starknives and class features doesn't allow 2 two weapon style.
Is there a feat or other method I could use to meet my desired goal. it isn't just about the style - It needs to have substance too!
|
|
The idea,a varisian belly-dancer whirling like a dervish through combat with two starknives preferably with the damage ramping up to be effective at higher levels.
So far, the Unchained rogue Knife master archetype + fighter weapon master archetype concept by The Fox is the closest to my vision. I had even fancied the RIVER RAT trait to bump up the damage by +1 with Daggers; as starknives are just a ring of four daggers.
I'd gladly go with only three levels of rogue and delay the purchase of piranha strike, so as to get combat expertise and spring attack (*requires +4 bab) earlier. I imagined dumping the fighter as soon as possible to pursue some form of dervish dance, but at these higher levels is where I start to eat penalties to AC, bab, and damage.
starting with a d4 damage dice and becoming steadily less and less effective in combat is not conducive to one's survival.
...Can we get an official game designer in here to whip up a PFS sanctioned archetype?
You could take a single level of Harrow Warden monk to get starknives as monk weapons (or just spend the feat(s) on Two-Weapon Fighting), then go Warpriest from there to get scaling damage dice on your starknives. You can use either Slashing Grace of 3 levels of Unchained rogue to get Dex-to-damage.
And really, for real, we're serious, the size of your damage dice has little to do with your damage at high levels. But if you just like rolling lots of dice, then go for Knife Master rogue and get a bunch of sneak attack d8s.
Warpriest of Desna, Dual Talent Human: 15/17+, 15/17+, 12, 10, 14, 9 or something like that.
1. +Weapon Focus: Starknife / TWF
3. +Toughness / Double Slice
5. ?
6. +Improved TWF / ? / (+?)
7. ?
9. +Weapon Specialization: Starknife
With natural strength, Sacred Weapon, and Fate's Favored + Divine Favor you've got plenty of punch, and plenty of feats left over for whatever you want.
Or, do something similar with the Two-Weapon Warrior, or the Guide Ranger, or a Slayer... it's really not that difficult to run strength-based TWF, and it leaves you far, far more free to build the kind of character you want to, rather than having to try to shoehorn dex-to-damage into it.
If you really want to do the Monk unarmored thing, you could go Guide-Skirmisher Ranger X/ Master of Many Styles 1, with something like 14/16+, 14, 14, 10, 14/16, 10. Then:
1.Combat Reflexes
2.+TWF
3(MOMS).+Improved Unarmed Strike / Snake Style / +Snake Fang
So that you get to throw free unarmed counterattacks in between your knife strikes. Skirmisher throws in awesome wisdom-fueled combat tricks and Guide makes TWF shockingly lethal a few times a day with it's massive combat buff.
There's really no end to the interesting things you can do, particularly with a little multiclassing on a solid martial base. Heck, if you want a little magical flair and a reason to be charismatic, you can take a couple levels of Ninja and build up a Ki Pool to fuel Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone many times per day.
I'd start as whirling dervish swashbuckler (4-5 levels), then weapon master fighter(3 levels), then sentinel of desna. Dex to damage, can fight with two weapons if you don't mind losing precise strike
Whirling Dervish is amazingly good if your GM agrees that it grants blanket dex-to-damage, though I've seen it fiercely argued that Dervish Finesse is supposed to 'alter' Swashbuckler's Finesse to use only scimitar. Depending on the PFS situation it's usually wise to avoid 'controversy', but it's certainly powerful if you can use it.
|
|
Whirling Dervish is amazingly good if your GM agrees that it grants blanket dex-to-damage, though I've seen it fiercely argued that Dervish Finesse is supposed to 'alter' Swashbuckler's Finesse to use only scimitar. Depending on the PFS situation it's usually wise to avoid 'controversy', but it's certainly powerful if you can use it.
Whirling Dervish Swashbucker does look nearly perfect: While it has a scimitar theme, the actual abilities should work just as well with a starknife ('Dervish Finesse (Ex)' quite plainly adds the scimitar to your weapon list rather than replacing the entire list).
I only see two issues with it (at first glance, at least):
- You are probably going to want to avoid Two-Weapon Fighting (at 5+, you add your swashbuckler level to damage while single-wielding but not while dual-wielding)
- Simply put, a scimitar is mechanically better. This is one of the best options for what you want to do, but you might get some strange looks when you sit down at a table and say 'I took an archetype based around a scimitar but actually use a starknife.'
Unchained Knife-Fighter Rogue is still a valid options (lower BAB and HP than then Dervish, but gets Dex to Damage a tiny bit faster and does more damage if you can get Sneak Attacks).
The Slashing Grace feat has been mentioned, but that requires a one handed weapon, not a light weapon like the Starknife.
The Ninja Vanishing Trick has been mentioned as well, but is problematic:
- Ninja do not get Dexterity to damage, and there are no Unchained Ninja in PFS.
- Unchained Rogues can take Ninja Tricks, but they need to have a ki pool if the trick uses ki (like Vanishing trick). I don't see an easy way to get a ki pool without a 3 or 4 level dip into Monk (you can not have both rogue and ninja levels)
Basically, if you want to use Vanishing Trick, you pretty much need to be a pure Ninja, which means sacrificing Dex to damage for a couple more sneak attacks each day. Probably not a great trade off, but of course, your mileage may vary...
More about the build above:
This one comes online at level 3. You do need to suffer through two levels of not much damage. That is unfortunate. Maybe someone can find a way around that.
At level 3, your melee attack (assuming mwk starknives) is
Melee mwk starknife +6 (1d4+6/x3), or
2 mwk starknives +4/+4 (1d4+6/1d4+3/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack (+2d8)If you can get flanking and successfully sneak attack with both starknives, you will average about 23 points of damage.
Edit: now that I'm looking more closely at this build (which I threw together hastily), I would probably suggest tossing out the 4th level of rogue. It isn't doing much for you.
Any BAB+1 class would be fine there instead, including another level of fighter.
How would this build use starknifes before level 4(without penalties)? Starknife is a martial weapon which rogues are not trained in using.
The Ninja Vanishing Trick has been mentioned as well, but is problematic:
Ninja do not get Dexterity to damage, and there are no Unchained Ninja in PFS.
That was actually part of my thing about how you don't need to go dex-to-damage to do TWF; dual talent human makes it quite accessible for almost anything fairly martial, and TWF style also works for ranger/slayer.
A Sacred Fist of Desna can also learn to flurry with Starknife by level 5, taking the Crusader's Flurry feat.
Or you can take four levels of Warpriest for swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor and then branch into Kata Master Monk with Crusader's Flurry to get Opportune Parry and Riposte along with flurry.
There are a huge number of good to great options, so part of this really comes down to the character you want to make - flurry vs two starknives, unarmored vs armored, special powers, etc.