RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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I'm thinking the following on social grace:
Social Grace: The vigilante can select any one Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skill. Whenever the vigilante is in his social identity he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on checks with the selected skill. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, increase the bonus by +1. This talent may be selected multiple times, selecting a different skill each time.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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I'm trying to get a full post with a comprehensive redesign suggestion for social talents, but I thought I'd get stuff out for discussion now since I don't know when I'll finish my analysis and wordsmithing. Much of this agrees with the original post, especially when it comes to scaling talents instead of stepping them. (The opposite of what I'm asking for in some of the vigilante side.)
Level 1+
Advantageous Cover Identity: Your social identity has other uses beyond just being a cover. Select one of the following feats: Black Marketeer, Cosmopolitan, Fortune Teller, Master of the Ledger, Osiriontologist, or Religious Pilgrim. You must meet the prerequisites for the selected feat before you may select this talent. This feat only applies when in your social guise.
Case the Joint: Stolen directly from the Stalker list. Moved to be a social talent instead of a vigilante talent.
Detective: Gain the Amateur Investigator Feat. This feat can be used in both social and vigilante identities.
Renown: Combine the whole renown tree (renown, great renown, incredible renown, and possibly instant recognition) into a single scaling feat.
Safe House: Dump prereq.
Social Grace: The vigilante can select any one Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skill. Whenever the vigilante is in his social identity he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on checks with the selected skill. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, increase the bonus by +1. This talent may be selected multiple times, selecting a different skill each time.
Level 3+
Loyal Aid: likely needs some upscaling with level on how useful your aid can be.
Level 5+
Feign Innocence: No change
Many Guises:[i/] Scales into Everyman, Any Guise
Level 7+
[i]Quick Change: Scale into Immediate Change at level 13.
Non-magical aura: While in their social identity, the vigilante can cast the magic aura spell 1/day per charisma modifier, however this may only be used to make an item seem non-magical, not magical. The vigilante gains 1 extra use per day for ever four levels beyond 7.
Shift Alignment: While in their social identity, a vigilante can mask their alignment to detect as any alignment they choose. This only affects detection spells, it does not prevent effects of abilities based on alignment (eg smite evil). At level 13+ this masking is even stronger, and items and effects will treat the vigilante as their chosen alignment. This includes helpful and harmful effects.
Subjective Truth: Perhaps should also count as glibness spell for fooling non-magical means? (Also lowered from 9 to 7)
Level 9+
Elude Detection: While in their social identity, a vigilante is always under the effects of a non-detection spell as if cast by a caster equal to their level. The vigilante can surpress or resume this ability as a standard action. If the effect is dispelled, the vigilante can reactivate it after 1d4 rounds.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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Thanks. Fixed and moved in my post.
The other talent I wanted to move to social is stern gaze, from the Zealot specialty. However, I think it really outclasses social grace at that point since it gives better bonuses, and hits two skills at once. It also is more appropriate to the vigilante side than the social side, even though it's on social skills. I still think that talent should belong to all of the 4 specialties though. They need a "general" set of talents selectable for all specialties as vigilante talents.
I couldn't agree more on dumping the Renown on safe house. It's one of the actual cool social ability so I hate seeing it require a not cool one.
Good thread is good.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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Otherwise like many of the changes; I'd move many guises to the 3+ category.
I wouldn't argue with that.
If Advantageous Cover Identity is to truly be advantageous it should probably provide slightly more than a feat (such as by ignoring pre-reqs), or have the feat at least extend to its mundane identities.
Advantageous cover was a way to get some use of some seldom (possibly never) used feats in the game in a very thematic way. You build your cover identity around a story along with one of the feats. BTW I'm sure there are more feats that could be added to the list, but those were the ones I found quickly that looked like good fits.
I actually was working a slightly more complicated version of this where you could take the feat more than once, and then choose which non-vigilante identity to apply it to. Your social identity is the rich minor noble with the cosmopolitan feat, but your mundane identity is a money lender down by the docks. The even MORE complex version would be inspired by martial flex, except with a specific set of feats (now that I think of it, skill focus in any craft or profession should be added to the list) and every time you set up a new identity, you can choose 1 feat off the list.
As far as ignoring prereqs, I decided to drop that and specifically include prereqs when I added the Osiriontologist. I thought it was a cool feat to have in the list, but I think allowing it for someone who knows no history and can't speak osirion seems silly when selling the cover. So it's not that I think it would make things mechanically broken, it's more that I thought it created silly situations. Now that I'm thinking of it further, I could see creating a cover where you don't have the skills and then just trying to bluff through it though.
Shift Alignment is very nice; reworking Subjective Truth into a positive enabler for the class. It would be interesting if this were expanded to give the Vigilante knowledge their alignment was being scried. If glibness then there would need to be some duration limit/day; rolling feign innocence into the mechanic would be better imo. In that case making it another scaling talent starting at 1 would be good.
I lifted shift alignment directly off the Master Spy prestige class. It seemed like a good fit for those vigilantes who wanted to take things to a new level. Glibness was also inspired by the master spy.
What does Elude Detection add to the Dual Identity flavor? I see that it's stronger, but I'm curious what the thematic part is.
First, it fit my theme of outright stealing from the master spy skills that I thought might be useful and interesting for the vigilante, giving more options beyond renown based stuff and changing faster. I was trying to come up with ways to actually add more abilities to the social side.
Now, where I see this one useful...if someone is trying to figure out who the vigilante is, they can't go "hey, why is it that I can never scry Nerval the halfling butler when the Tiller is around. Instead...Neveral is always immune to scrying for some reason (when he wants to be) putting confusion into those divination investigations. I really wanted this to be in effect for all identities, but I was actually a little worried that giving this to the vigilante side was too strong, so I did the first version sticking to the social side. (I don't want too many social skills that help the vigilante side that become compulsary because people just want to ignore the social side. I did try to throw a tidbit or too in there though.)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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BTW, I do believe the creation of social traits was absolutely the right move, and I approve of it completely. I just want to see real choices (just like I want on the vigilante side.) I want to have enough things that I can make each vigilante different, and I want to have hard choices because there is more I'd like to have than I can actually put on a character.
I'll also note, I didn't worry about abilities for high level play. I know it's needed, but I'm mostly worried about the first 12 levels of play being fun and balanced. I hope the social side of the vigilante will be fun too, to kill the "why would I ever use that" argument.
Coming from a PFS perspective, the social identity has dubious usefulness, and renown is an even more worthless mechanic unless you choose exactly the right scenarios to stay in one area. So making sure you could create a vigilante who doesn't care about renown is necessary to make it useful for PFS.
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My reaction when I read the post about Phase 2: "Oh, Social Talents sound cool! It sure would be nice to have some flexibility on the social side."
My reaction when I read the updated Playtest doc: "That's a nice railroad they've built for Social Talents. Looks like a regular class progression."
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There will surely be more choices in the final vigilante. This is just the tip of the iceberg (and the proof of concept of my proposition, as the main proponent for having social talent options) so you guys can provide feedback and brainstorm awesome new ones!
There will surely be more choices in the final vigilante. This is just the tip of the iceberg (and the proof of concept of my proposition, as the main proponent for having social talent options) so you guys can provide feedback and brainstorm awesome new ones!
I think the main way to make it feel like less of a railroad would be to cut back on the prerequisites. As is, you're FORCED to take renown as only 1 talent isn't gated behind it or higher levels. If you add more talents but they follow suit with what's shown, it's still going to feel like there isn't a real choice.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm thinking the following on social grace:
Social Grace: The vigilante can select any one Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skill. Whenever the vigilante is in his social identity he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on checks with the selected skill. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, increase the bonus by +1. This talent may be selected multiple times, selecting a different skill each time.
I like this much better than the current social grace talent. Currently, you take the talent one time and it gives you the equivalent of about 5 feats. The above version would give a total bonus of +8, making it better than Skill Focus. I think a talent should be equal to a feat, but unique.
I would make the initial bonus a +3, so it ends up at +7, a little more than Skill Focus but takes longer. And you would get the first increase faster.
I'm thinking the following on social grace:
Social Grace: The vigilante can select any one Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skill. Whenever the vigilante is in his social identity he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on checks with the selected skill. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, increase the bonus by +1. This talent may be selected multiple times, selecting a different skill each time.
I like this much better than the current social grace talent. Currently, you take the talent one time and it gives you the equivalent of about 5 feats. The above version would give a total bonus of +8, making it better than Skill Focus. I think a talent should be equal to a feat, but unique.
I would make the initial bonus a +3, so it ends up at +7, a little more than Skill Focus but takes longer. And you would get the first increase faster.
Alternatively, this should probably be part of the basic class design.
This would be the equivalent of the Fighter's Weapon Training, and scale accordingly. It also leaves design room for what Archetypes can substitute out.
Right now, there really aren't many options for Archetypes to focus in on and replace - giving a class more hard-coded Abilities means there's more things you can swap out for Archetype stuff.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Renown: Combine the whole renown tree (renown, great renown, incredible renown, and possibly instant recognition) into a single scaling feat.
I don't really like the idea of a single scaling feat. I would like to see the original renown scale and the additional renown talents increase that scale. I find it really odd that the number jumps from 200 to 5,000 to 25,000.
Renown (Ex): (edits in bold) The vigilante becomes known for deeds and abilities, regardless of his current identity. This renown grants him favorable treatment in civilized company and lends an air of menace while facing down his enemies.
While he is in his social identity, a vigilante can spend 1 week gaining renown among the locals of any community of no more than about 100 individuals per vigilante level 200 individuals (a village if using settlement statistics). This could be the entire community or a smaller neighborhood in a larger settlement. He must spend at least 4 hours each day socializing and making contacts. After spending 1 week, whenever he is in his social identity, all NPCs treat their starting attitude toward him as one category better, as long as their initial attitude would have at least been indifferent (see the Diplomacy skills on pages 93–94 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
While he gains renown in an area using his social identity, he also spreads rumors and tales about his vigilante identity. Once he has gained renown in a community, whenever he is in his vigilante identity, he gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Intimidate skill checks. This bonus applies only while he is within a number of miles equal to his vigilante level from the community in which he has gained renown.
A vigilante can hold renown in only one community a limited number of communities (one or possibly two with other social talents). If he gains renown in a new community, he loses renown in his previous community must decide which one of his previous communities to lose (add this statement to other renown talents). These bonuses and abilities are subject to GM approval. The GM might rule that an NPC or monster has not heard the tales or, in rare cases, might respond negatively if the NPC targeted by the check is a foe of the vigilante.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Here are a couple of suggestions to scale great and incredible renown. While they result in a lower number at the level when the ability would be gained, they allow for larger numbers overall.
Great Renown (Ex): The vigilante is known on a broader scale. He can gain renown in a single community of up to 500 5,000 individuals per vigilante level (a large town) or up to two smaller communities with a combined population less than or equal to his total number of individuals of no more than 2,000 individuals each (two small towns). If he gains renown in a third community, must decide which one of his previous communities to lose. The bonus while he is in his social identity remains unchanged, but the circumstance bonus to Intimidate while he is in his vigilante identity increases to +6. A vigilante must be at least 7th level and possess the renown social talent to select this talent.
Incredible Renown (Ex): The vigilante is incredibly famous in both identities. He can gain renown in a single community of up to 2,000 25,000 individuals (a large city) or up to three two smaller communities with a combined population less than or equal to his total number of individuals cities of no more than 10,000 individuals each (three two small cities). If he gains renown in a fourth community, must decide which one of his previous communities to lose. The bonus while he is in his social identity remains unchanged, but the circumstance bonus to Intimidate while in he is in his vigilante identity increases to +8. A vigilante must be at least 11th level and possess the great renown social talent to select this talent.
Thanks. Fixed and moved in my post.
The other talent I wanted to move to social is stern gaze, from the Zealot specialty. However, I think it really outclasses social grace at that point since it gives better bonuses, and hits two skills at once. It also is more appropriate to the vigilante side than the social side, even though it's on social skills. I still think that talent should belong to all of the 4 specialties though. They need a "general" set of talents selectable for all specialties as vigilante talents.
Stern gaze is an inquisitor class feature. Its not a social talent because typically, you're not being very sociable if you're giving them terrifying death glares all the time (which is much more a vigilante thing). I could see moving stern gaze to the list of general vigilante talents, however.
Regardless, you hit the nail on the head on why this won't happen: stern gaze is too strong to be a social talent.
I think the one big thing that I'm not crazy about in regards to renown is the idea that the viiglante is SUPER limited in how famous he can be and how far his reputation can travel. Whether they meant to or not, PFS brought up an excellent point in that renown never gets big enough where you could be renowned throughout the entire settlement of Absolam. (Its too big.)
Furthermore, the Sphere of Influence mechanic from Ultimate Campaign exists, and that Fame / Reputation system can spread your notoriety a LOT further then the vigilante's own class feature can.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Right now, there really aren't many options for Archetypes to focus in on and replace - giving a class more hard-coded Abilities means there's more things you can swap out for Archetype stuff.
Archetypes could be new vigilante specializations (psychic, beast-blooded, etc.) like the oracle has new mysteries or grant specialized social and vigilante talents (inquisition, teleportation, tracking, etc.).
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I think the one big thing that I'm not crazy about in regards to renown is the idea that the viiglante is SUPER limited in how famous he can be and how far his reputation can travel. Whether they meant to or not, PFS brought up an excellent point in that renown never gets big enough where you could be renowned throughout the entire settlement of Absolam. (Its too big.)
Furthermore, the Sphere of Influence mechanic from Ultimate Campaign exists, and that Fame / Reputation system can spread your notoriety a LOT further then the vigilante's own class feature can.
IMO the best way to approach renown is to use an existing mechanic to represent your renown (or, who knows, build a new one into the Ultimate Intrigue book that I hear they're working on). Maybe this is spheres of influence, maybe it's not.
Then let the renown class ability simply let you add onto this existing mechanic, drop the exclusive-renown bits where you lose renown in one area to gain it in another, and let the vigilante benefit from the skill bonuses in every area where she's built up her reputation. Each week of work lets you artificially add X people to your spheres of influence, so 200 a week at early levels.
That sort of approach solves a bunch of pesky problems with renown scaling, renown loss, and maximum city sizes, while also giving them a mechanic they can use for nearly every class and add to the broader set of Ultimate Intrigue mechanics.
Honestly I am curious how Renown stacks up to Fame from the chelish diva... diva gets over 1000 population right from the get go...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I liked the loyal aid talent in my playtest game. We were running a RP game only with no combat and I decided the vigilante would be perfect. I wished the ability for his loyal allies to spread misinformation was better.
Deceptive Aid (Ex): The vigilante's loyal allies and friends actively spread false information about him. The DC of Diplomacy checks made to gather information about the vigilante and Survival checks made to track him increases by an amount equal to 5+ his vigilante level. When the vigilante tasks his loyal allies and friends with spreading false tales of his location and activities to others, any Diplomacy checks made to gather information about the vigilante and Survival checks made to track him may provide specific lies on a failed check. If the check fails by 5 or more, the vigilante can decide what information is gained by a gather information check and where a false trail leads on a tracking check. In addition, the number of times false tales can be used increases to three times per week. A vigilante must possess the loyal aid social talent to select this talent.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I would like to see the following social talents:
1) Let your loyal aids set up your renown by themselves. Good for a traveling game like S&S or JR. I would include some kind of cost associated to limit usage and simulate their expenses. (I don't like the instant recognition talent, 4 hours seems too quick)
2) Extra-dimensional safe house, maybe limited to warlock/zealot.
3) Some kind of renown for the vigilantes party. Maybe a lesser version with reduced bonus and distance?
4) A couple tied into the Leadership feat.