Sorcerer vs Wizard

[Aelryinth]

and a sorc with a ring of spell knowledge could have done exactly what that exploiter wizard did...haul out a spellbook, glance at the needed spells, and cast one, then the other, and still have all his others spells known.

So, meh. Utility spells tend to be lower level anyways, and sorcs will always have more of those slots.

==Aelryinth

[Space McMan]

Aelryinth wrote:

and a sorc with a ring of spell knowledge could have done exactly what that exploiter wizard did...haul out a spellbook, glance at the needed spells, and cast one, then the other, and still have all his others spells known.

So, meh. Utility spells tend to be lower level anyways, and sorcs will always have more of those slots.

==Aelryinth

A ring of spell knowledge allows you to hold a single spell, and whether spells can be changed out (and even if they can, how long would it take) is open to debate. So to do what my wizard did, the sorc would need two rings of spell knowledge (level 1 and 2) for a total of 7,500g (we are all 4th level so that is waaaaaay beyond possible wealth levels). That's not even a remote comparison, and also a very questionable interpretation of how that item works, even if it was affordable.

[Bigger Club]

Sorcerer should be played(outside of concept reasons) pretty much only if you want instant versility versus wizards slightly more time consuming versility that is better versility in turn. (And naturally just personal preference.)

Now people keep saying that sorcerers have more spells per day, but that is not really that big of a thing and sometimes even false.

Let's assume 20 casting start for a start. at level 5/6 you get +2 headband and at 10/11 +4, level increases are put into casting stat as well so +2 at 10/11. Wizard is a specialist and has bonded item.(I am assuming that it will be used to regain highest level slot) % will be rounded to the nearest full %

Math:

5th level:
Sorcerer: 1st:8 2nd:6
Wizard: 1st:5+1 2nd:4+1 3rd:2+1+1
Spells total: Sorc 14 Wiz 15 Result: about 7% more for the Wizard
Spell levels total: Sorc 20 Wiz 28 Result: 40% more for the wizard

6th level:
Sorcerer: 1st:8 2nd:7 3rd:4
Wizard: 1st:5+1 2nd:5+1 3rd:3+1+1
Spells total: Sorc 19 Wiz 17 Result: about 12% more for the Sorcerer
Spell levels total: Sorc 34 Wiz 33 Result: 3% more for the Sorcerer

10th level:
Sorcerer: 1st:8 2nd:8 3rd:8 4th:7 5th:4
Wizard: 1st:6+1 2nd:6+1 3rd:5+1 4th:5+1 5th:3+1+1
Spells total: Sorc 35 Wiz 31 Result: about 13% more for the Sorcerer
Spell levels total: Sorc 96 Wiz 88 Result: 9% more for the Sorcerer

11th level:
Sorcerer: 1st:8 2nd:8 3rd:8 4th:8 5th:5
Wizard: 1st:6+1 2nd:6+1 3rd:6+1 4th:5+1 5th:3+1 6th:2+1+1
Spells total: Sorc 37 Wiz 35 Result: about 6% more for the Sorcerer
Spell levels total: Sorc 105 Wiz 110 Result: 5% more for the wizard

So what we get from these that on even levels Sorc does have a bit more spells per day but only just and as we go higher in levels that even extends to odd levels. However if we look at spell casting power in spell levels in the early levels wizard is at a massive advantage at odd levels and still slightly ahead at mid levels. I would assume that at high levels sorcerer will take the lead.

But there is one factor that has not been considered yet and that is that runestones of power cost double to pearls of power. Let's say 10-15% of wealth is used on those items. 5th and 6th level do not need to be looked at due to low amount of gold.

More math:

10th level: 6.2k-9.3k, chosen number 8k
Sorcerer: 1x 2nd level runestone
Wizard: 2x 2nd level pearl
Using the numbers from before and adding these change them to.
Spells total: Sorc 36 Wiz 33 Result: 9% more for the Sorcerer
Spell levels total: Sorc 98 Wiz 92 Result: 7% more for the Sorcerer

11th level: 8.2k-12.3k 10k spent
Sorcerer: 1x 1st level runstesone, 1x 2nd level runestone
Wizard: 1x 1st level pearl. 1x 3rd level pearl
Spells total: Sorc 39 Wiz 37 Result: about 5% more for the Sorcerer
Spell levels total: Sorc 108 Wiz 114 Result: 6% more for the wizard

Not big changes occured, but if they were crafting the items themselves and as such get them at half cost the effects would be increased. And at high levels when the sorcerer is starting to pull ahead properly their effect is again magnified.

Now all of those numbers were not ment to prove that sorcerer does not in fact have an advantage even if they show it depends on the level in question. But that whatever advantage they may have over the wizard is not really that big of a deal.

Also with the meters I used do not show how big of a difference in spell levels there is as that can't be quantified, the spell levels total shows some hint at it but it is hardly proper. Compare scorcing ray to fireball, bulls strenght to haste and so on. A bump in spell level is sort of big deal. Mainly because it means you can deliver a bigger bang with the same action economy.

All this being said I still mostly prefer spontaneous casters, why? Because prepared ones are a lot of work at the table, I am ok with fidling around with the class and spells between sessions but when we are playing I want my focus to be on that. That does not mean that I do not acknowledge the fact that when you put your mind to it wizard is the more powerful of the two. When I do play a wizard I usually make several prepared spells load outs to use in different situations and leave some slots open for the unexpected.

[Grey Lensman]

Sambo wrote:

I've heard that sorcerers are better casters than wizards, but from what I've seen it's almost the opposite in every way possible. Wizards get access to higher level spells earlier than sorcerers (this really hurts sorcerers at low levels, a 3rd level sorcerer can still only cast 1st level spells), wizards can get more spells by paying a very small amount of gold, the Int stat is much more useful than Cha in my opinion, and due to that the wizard will almost always have better skills than the sorcerer. A high intelligence is super important for spellcraft and knowledges, especially at low levels. The extra known spells for a wizard also makes him better at making magical items than a sorcerer. The only thing I've seen that makes a sorcerer better in any way is the extra damage on certain energy spells from the draconic bloodline, but in order to really make that ability useful, you need to pick a lot of damaging spells...which aren't as useful as types of spells like buff, debuff, summon, or battlefield control. Is there any reason to pick sorcerer over wizard?

Separate question: My brother is GMing a campaign and he wanted to create a group of enemies that would mimic the party (in class choice as well as personality of each player) that would consistently be causing conflicts for the party. The enemies would probably be exactly the same level, so how would a GM keep one party from completely killing off the other after one fight? He wants to do it at around 5th to 10th level, so super high level magic is out.

One thing that boosts the sorcerer is GM running styles and group play styles. There is no amount of scrying and planning ahead that will help you with a GM who makes encounters up on the fly during the middle of the session, especially when it is in response to actions of random player actions.

Outside of that, one area the sorcerer shines in over the wizard is when you want to build a magical specialist. Bloodline arcana abilities offer boosts wizards often can't get, like allowing mind affecting magic to target things that would otherwise be immune, additional boosts the the DC's of save-or-suck magics, as well as the damage boost you have already mentioned from the draconic bloodline (among others).

[Ravingdork]

Very interesting, BC.

Still, I think the sorcerer has it in terms of on-the-spot versatility (especially at higher levels). The only thing that might surpass her in terms of versatility is an arcanist with Quick Study (which sacrifices action economy for it).

Also, a wizard at higher levels can't easily stay in dragon form 24/7 like a sorcerer can. Sorcerer with a good Charisma has enough high end spell slots to make the duration last all the time.

Shapechange has a duration of 10 mins./level and let's you turn into a dragon as form of the dragon III.

At the level a sorcerer gets it (18), she will have a minimum of three 9th-level spell slots. 180 minute duration (3 hours) x 3 = 9 hour days as a dragon (or anything else for that matter since you can change once per round).

Contrast that to the wizard, who can get it earlier (17), but only has one slot, maybe two as a transmuter.

Now if we assume both have at least a 30 in their relevant spellcasting stat, and both are 18th-level, then the sorcerer can maintain shapechange for 12 hours versus the wizard's 9 hours (if we're generous and assume he's a transmuter).

That's not too bad really, but if the sorcerer has Extend Spell (and an option that lets her apply it to a 9th-level spell), then she can change into anything she wants, each round, 24 hours a day.

Wizard can't do that.

Now put them both up to 20th-level. The wizard, at best, can maintain it for 20 hours each day. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can maintain it for 23 hours and 20 minutes each day without the benefit of any metamagic at all. A simple orange prism ioun stone or spell specialization feat allows it for her 24/7.

Then you've got Maleficent, Mistress of All Evil.

Wizard might be able to break the 24/7 barrier as well, but he's got to work much harder and invest much more at it. Everything comes easier to the sorcerer, making it an ideal choice for people wanting on-the-spot versatility or an easier time mastering their handful of spells (as opposed to a whole library).

[Aelryinth]

Space McMan wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

and a sorc with a ring of spell knowledge could have done exactly what that exploiter wizard did...haul out a spellbook, glance at the needed spells, and cast one, then the other, and still have all his others spells known.

So, meh. Utility spells tend to be lower level anyways, and sorcs will always have more of those slots.

==Aelryinth

A ring of spell knowledge allows you to hold a single spell, and whether spells can be changed out (and even if they can, how long would it take) is open to debate. So to do what my wizard did, the sorc would need two rings of spell knowledge (level 1 and 2) for a total of 7,500g (we are all 4th level so that is waaaaaay beyond possible wealth levels). That's not even a remote comparison, and also a very questionable interpretation of how that item works, even if it was affordable.

Uh, no.

Teaching the spell to the ring is literally a spellcraft check. You can do it by SEEING SOMEONE CAST THE SPELL, it's that fast.

And level 2 means you can put any spell of level 2 or less into the ring. You aren't limited to just level 2 spells. Eventually, you want the high level one so you can swap up to level 4 spells in and out.

So you'd teach it the one spell, cast it, then teach it the next spell, replacing the first one, and cast it.

Literally that easy.

VERY powerful ring. You can swap a spell in and out all day!

BUT...you must have access to the spell. Which means you are now carrying around scrolls or a spellbook with the spell in it. So, like the wizard, there's a cost, in addition to the cost of the ring.

==Aelryinth

[strayshift]

Ravingdork wrote:

Very interesting, BC.

Still, I think the sorcerer has it in terms of on-the-spot versatility (especially at higher levels). The only thing that might surpass her in terms of versatility is an arcanist with Quick Study (which sacrifices action economy for it).

Also, a wizard at higher levels can't easily stay in dragon form 24/7 like a sorcerer can. Sorcerer with a good Charisma has enough high end spell slots to make the duration last all the time.

Shapechange has a duration of 10 mins./level and let's you turn into a dragon as form of the dragon III.

At the level a sorcerer gets it (18), she will have a minimum of three 9th-level spell slots. 180 minute duration (3 hours) x 3 = 9 hour days as a dragon (or anything else for that matter since you can change once per round).

Contrast that to the wizard, who can get it earlier (17), but only has one slot, maybe two as a transmuter.

Now if we assume both have at least a 30 in their relevant spellcasting stat, and both are 18th-level, then the sorcerer can maintain shapechange for 12 hours versus the wizard's 9 hours (if we're generous and assume he's a transmuter).

That's not too bad really, but if the sorcerer has Extend Spell (and an option that lets her apply it to a 9th-level spell), then she can change into anything she wants, each round, 24 hours a day.

Wizard can't do that.

Now put them both up to 20th-level. The wizard, at best, can maintain it for 20 hours each day. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can maintain it for 23 hours and 20 minutes each day without the benefit of any metamagic at all. A simple orange prism ioun stone or spell specialization feat allows it for her 24/7.

Then you've got Maleficent, mistress of evil.

Wizard might be able to break the 24/7 barrier as well, but he's got to work much harder and invest much more at it. Everything comes easier to the sorcerer, making it an ideal choice for people wanting on-the-spot versatility or an easier time mastering their handful of...

AND the Sorcerer could use unused spell slots to cast spells before bed (alongside a host of other long duration buffs which could be extended) and in effect get the next day for free. They even give a few of these to their friends too. Fun for all the party.

[Gregory Connolly]

So much sorcerer love in this thread.

I dispute claims like at 18th level the sorcerers one more Shapechange per day is some kind of real advantage.

What about at 17th level? Why would a Wizard even bother turning into a dragon once they can cast Time Stop and Wish?

I have also seen very few builds that would be less useful as Crossblooded Sorc 1/Wizard X compared to Sorcerer X+1.

At least 90% of the people I've ever gamed with spend at least 90% of the time below 12th level. If you have a significantly different experience I don't question why you have a different opinion.

[Bigger Club]

RD, well if we assume that the goal is to get shapechange for 24/7 it would be fair to assume that they are transmute as that is something they will focus on.

Sorcerer will have easier time yes but work harder? not that much.

So let's look at 20th level.
4 slots
+1 specialization
+1 bonded object
+1 High atribute
Total 7 slots
20 CL base
+1 Orange prism ioun stone, who doesn't have this if you are a full caster
Extend doubled everything

And done with 30 minutes to spare.

Now because the specialist slot and bonded object, wizard is actually cabable of doing it longer than sorcerer before 20th level.

[Ravingdork]

Provided he prepared all of his 9th-level spell slots as shapechange.

If something came up during the day that the sorcerer needed to use another spell, the sorcerer could choose not to keep it up for 24 hours and use her other 9th-level spells as needed, including such things as time stop.

(Really, I just thought it was damned cool for anyone to be in dragon form for 24/7.)

[Bigger Club]

Certainly, I do not really see the point at least outside of cool factor. You could cut down the spell slot investment by investing in other ways. Was more showing that you do not have to work hard at all to accomplish this. I doubt I would ever have a character with more than 2 slots dedicated to shapechange, much more likely 1 or 0. I was just working within the parameters you established.

But yes the main reason to play a sorcerer(well mechanics wise) is instant flexibility.

[Space McMan]

Aelryinth wrote:

Uh, no.

Teaching the spell to the ring is literally a spellcraft check. You can do it by SEEING SOMEONE CAST THE SPELL, it's that fast.

And level 2 means you can put any spell of level 2 or less into the ring. You aren't limited to just level 2 spells. Eventually, you want the high level one so you can swap up to level 4 spells in and out.

So you'd teach it the one spell, cast it, then teach it the next spell, replacing the first one, and cast it.

Literally that easy.

VERY powerful ring. You can swap a spell in and out all day!

BUT...you must have access to the spell. Which means you are now carrying around scrolls or a spellbook with the spell in it. So, like the wizard, there's a cost, in addition to the cost of the ring.

==Aelryinth

You are literally making rules up. Nowhere in the ring's description does it say you can teach it more than one spell, nor how long retraining the new spell would take. All it takes is a basic google search to find multiple threads debating the poor wording on this item, with no consensus. However, it's easy to see your interpretation is wildly overpowered. If a sorc can buy a relatively cheap ring and carry around a spellbook, they suddenly have more versatility than a wizard and more casts a day? There's no way that's the RAI of this item.

[Aelryinth]

The sheer idea that you could only teach it one spell ever also totally defeats the purpose of the ring.

Keep in mind that its basically only good for utility spells, because of the cost and level limitations. The wizard can prepare high level spells in high level slots. The sorc basically is prepping spells of 2-3 levels lower then his top spells in lower level slots on demand.

And yes, that is very much the flavor of the Ring. You aren't going to have the 4th level Ring at level 8, after all. As you pointed out, the cost makes that impossible. You'll probably get the level 2 ring around, what, level 10?

So, the wizard does it sooner and faster, but the sorc does get the flexibility eventually.

Note the feat Spontaneous Versatility does allow a Sorc to memorize spells out of a spellbook, too!

==Aelryinth

[Neo2151]

Ravingdork wrote:

That's not too bad really, but if the sorcerer has Extend Spell (and an option that lets her apply it to a 9th-level spell), then she can change into anything she wants, each round, 24 hours a day.

Wizard can't do that.

I don't understand where you're coming from with this argument.

You're just handing things to the Sorcerer without even bothering to explain how they got them, and not giving the same consideration to the Wizard? Well then of COURSE the Sorcerer is coming out on top! :P

But I imagine, if your goal is 24hr duration Shapechange, then a Greater Extend Metamagic Rod is in your inventory, and both classes get equal use out of said rod.

There is zero reason for a Sorcerer to be ahead here.

[Neo2151]

So here's the real skinny between the two classes:
Wizards rely on item crafting to truly shine. Sorcerers benefit slightly more from metamagic feats because of their ability to apply what's necessary to just the right spell on the fly.

So, if you're playing PFS, I'd never ever ever take a Wizard over a Sorcerer. Never ever. Losing that Scribe Scroll is literally a class-killer, and never having access to Craft Wand is the final nail in the coffin.
If you're not playing PFS (ie: crafting is allowed), then there is almost never a good reason to take Sorcerer over Wizard, save for flavor or personal preference. From a basic power standpoint, Wizard simply wins.
...
Until you add Arcanist into the mix, which takes the strongest part of being a Wizard, and gives it to the superior casting style of the Sorcerer, and makes both classes obsolete save for flavor alone. ;P

[Hmm]

I'm going to just say this.

I don't play for power. I play for roleplay and I play where my fun is. To me, wizards are cool and interesting but not my thing. I don't like crafting, I don't like paperwork, and I don't like prepping my spells in advance. I also like playing characters that rely on charisma and play the party face.

The weird bloodline powers and cool arcana of sorcerers make me happy. I've played three different bloodlines for sorcerers and would happily try others.

If you want to be a sorcerer, be a sorcerer. With the right spell choices, a mnemonic vestment and a bunch of scrolls, you have much of the wizard versatility over time combined with the sorcerer versatility of the moment.

I don't think that any of the three (arcanist, wizard or sorcerer) is any less valid than the others. They all have their own unique strengths, and they appeal to different kind of players. My boyfriend prefers prepared casters. I don't. We both build strong kickass spell casters that contribute to the well-being of the whole party.

I say, "Vive la difference!"

Hmm