Shadow Sorcerer -> Shadow Evocation -> Deeper Darkness?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Shadow Bloodline sorcerers get to add Deeper Darkness to their spells known. And--sorry in advance--I know this has been answered somewhere but it was about another spell (which I cannot remember), so I could not find the answer. But, does this mean if I cast Shadow Evocation I can emulate Deeper Darkness since it is a Sorcerer spell for me?

Or, despite it being on my spells known list, is it still not a Sorcerer/Wizard spell in the context of how the spell is treated for me? I know that, being a Sorcerer, any spell I add to my spells known is treated as arcane even if it is normally divine, but I am not sure if it is also treated as a "sorcerer" spell for my purposes.

Seems kind of silly that I could not emulate a spell I am perfectly capable of casting, but... well, we all know how Pathfinder is. :)

Anyway, the ideal situation would be for someone to link me to the ruling that already clears this up. Because I am almost positive there has been one already. I just cannot find it. :(


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It technically doesn't work I don't think, but I can totally see table variation on this, so feel free to ask your GM.


Sorcerer wrote:
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Where other casters say their spells are drawn from the x list, sorc spells are merely 'primarily' drawn from the sorc/wiz list. This means that bloodline spells function as full sorc spells for the effects of things like shadow evocation.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I'm going to go with no, simply because of the description of shadow evocation:

PRD wrote:
You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower.

Even though deeper darkness is on your sorcerer's spells known list, that doesn't make it a sorcerer/wizard spell, any more than having a domain makes those domain spells cleric spells.


It is a sorcerer spell of 4th level or lower though. Which is what the text in the spell calls for (right in your quote there even).


Trekkie90909 wrote:
It is a sorcerer spell of 4th level or lower though. Which is what the text in the spell calls for (right in your quote there even).

Ok, so, can my Wizard use Shadow Evocation to create deeper darkness because this one sorcerer bloodline gets it as a 3rd level spell? It is a sorcerer spell of 4th level or lower...sort of.


So, on a somewhat related topic: I'm sure we've all heard about (or used) Heighten Spell on a Continual Flame to overcome (Deeper) Darkness spells....But can Shadow Evocation also mimic Continual Flame as a 5th level spell? Is that legit?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

It's unclear whether shadow spells gain any of the descriptors of the spells they mimic. So a shadow evocation continual flame may not actually have the Light descriptor - and I'm not sure this is specified in the rules either way.

Also, if you automatically disbelieve your own illusions, such a shadow light can't even have a beneficial effect on you, so it would only suppress the darkness for people who believed it...which is odd to say the least.

Scarab Sages

ryric wrote:

It's unclear whether shadow spells gain any of the descriptors of the spells they mimic. So a shadow evocation continual flame may not actually have the Light descriptor - and I'm not sure this is specified in the rules either way.

Also, if you automatically disbelieve your own illusions, such a shadow light can't even have a beneficial effect on you, so it would only suppress the darkness for people who believed it...which is odd to say the least.

Shadow spells mimic the effects of a spell but do not gain all the properties of that spell. For example, regardless of the spell you're mimicking, your casting time is 1 standard action and the components are V and S, full stop. Yes, that means you can ignore expensive material components or cast a 1-hour-cast-time spell in 1 standard action. Cool huh? But, I kind of assume the downsides are that you also do not get the benefit of descriptors and whatnot. So, no matter what you're mimicking, the spell is always an Illusion(Shadow) spell with the Shadow descriptor.

EDIT: Just realized I need to clarify here. Anything listed in Shadow Conjuration overrides the mimicked spell. Shadow Conjuration lists a cast time, components, school, subschool, and descriptors. The rules text clarifies saving throws and spell resistance. For things like range, targeting, et cetera, you use the mimicked spell's properties.

Back to my original question, without taking sides here (because I honestly do not know the answer), I do not feel that domain spells are an accurate comparison. Bloodline spells get added to the sorcerer's spells known list with no restrictions. Domain spells take up the domain slot and have other exceptions surrounding them (such as you cannot sacrifice them for spontaneous inflict/cure). There are some similarities, but not many. The bottom line is they're two very different mechanics with totally different rules, though both happen to deal with spells.

Pathfinder Savant has an interesting ability, Esoteric Magic, which DOES have a clause stating that they may treat the chosen spell as if it were on his base spellcasting class's spell list. That's pretty nifty, and does suggest that if it's not called out specifically that it is not considered to be a "sorcerer" spell for the purposes of that particular sorcerer. But again, it's still not a slam dunk and this could still go either way. I was really hoping there was a relevant ruling or, failing that, a forum post somewhere I could reference.

As it is, without something to print out and bring with me, I foresee a lot of table variation here. :/

P.S. Now I want to go through possible spells to add to a Pathfinder Savant shadow caster. Haha >_>

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Shadow Sorcerer -> Shadow Evocation -> Deeper Darkness? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.