I just found out that you can no longer use a SLA as a way to get into a prestige class any more. Meaning a lot of characters might be invalid.
Are their other ways to get into prestige classes not using the old SLA way?
I mean any prestige class,
What is the EARLIEST YOU CAN PRESTRIGE NOW?
It is back to the way it was before SLA's worked as prerequisites. If you use variant multiclassing there is at least one "shortcut," but that one is costly. Which prestige class are you most concerned about?
It is back to the way it was before SLA's worked as prerequisites. If you use variant multiclassing there is at least one "shortcut," but that one is costly. Which prestige class are you most concerned about?
Mystic thergue and eldritch knight and evananglist.
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Mystic Theurge
Inner Sea Magic apparently has Guild Rules (eclectic/esoteric) that can help with early entry. I'm not very familiar with them, but this thread might help.
Eldritch Knight
The only option I know of is to use Variant Multiclassing. You take 5 levels of Wizard while multiclassing with Oracle. At first level you select the Battle Mystery, and at third level you choose the Skill at Arms Revelation. That gives you proficiency with all martial weapons. Now you can start EK at 6th level rather than 7th. It works, but it is too costly for me.
I don't really know anything about the Evangelist.
Interestingly enough, the Bonded Witch archetype (bonded to a weapon) can still provide early entry to mystic theurge, because it can cast warding weapon, a second level spell, at level 2. Since it's a spell, not a spell-like ability, it meets the requirement of being able to cast second level arcane spells. But that still doesn't get you into a prestige class before 5th level.
That doesn't work. A 2nd level witch cannot cast 2nd level spells at 2nd level. Even though Warding Weapon is a 2nd level spell for sorcerers and wizards, it is only a 1st level spell for a Bonded Witch with the Weapon patron. If you insist on it being a 2nd level spell, then you lack the necessary spell slot to prepare that spell.
Okay, never mind the reference to lacking the spell slots -- I skimmed over the archetype and simply assumed that it worked like the patron of a standard witch. But I would still regard that spell as a 1st level spell simply from the structure of the bonded item spell list, as the only evidence for it being a spell of higher than 1st level is the fact that another class has it as a higher level spell.
I notice that it is a 1st level spell for a Bloodrager or Magus.
You may be able to do it for mystic theurge if you do something like become a arcane casing class 4 and divine casting class 1 and then having a Cleric of 7th level or higher cast imbue with spell ability on you.
Then you have to not use the 2nd level divine spell until you have gone up 2 [or 3] levels, so you don't lose the pre-requisite for the PC. And you have to have the cleric not to dismiss the spell either.
Difficult to do but not impossible. quite.
Short answer, no there are no longer ways to gain early access.
You may be able to do it for mystic theurge if you do something like become a arcane casing class 4 and divine casting class 1 and then having a Cleric of 7th level or higher cast imbue with spell ability on you.
Then you have to not use the 2nd level divine spell until you have gone up 2 [or 3] levels, so you don't lose the pre-requisite for the PC. And you have to have the cleric not to dismiss the spell either.
Difficult to do but not impossible. quite.
Of course, with imbue spell ability you can't cast 2nd level spells so much as a single 2nd level spell, so the legality of that trick is dubious at best. Same for the bonded witch thing. I also recall something about not being able to bootstrap PrCs i.e. you can't fulfill PrC requirements using things provided by the same PrC.
You may be able to do it for mystic theurge if you do something like become a arcane casing class 4 and divine casting class 1 and then having a Cleric of 7th level or higher cast imbue with spell ability on you.
Then you have to not use the 2nd level divine spell until you have gone up 2 [or 3] levels, so you don't lose the pre-requisite for the PC. And you have to have the cleric not to dismiss the spell either.
Difficult to do but not impossible. quite.
Another thing to note is that you must be 5th level to gain a second level spell out of the deal. So you would get one level of early entry not 2.
The earliest entry level for all PRD Prestige Classes is between lv6 and lv8, depending on the exact class.
Variant Multiclassing allows for the earliest entries. Other classes fulfill the requirements immediately anyway:
Arcane Archer (lv7) - Bloodrager 6
Arcane Trickster (Lv8) - Sandman Bard 7, VMC Rogue
Eldritch Knight (lv6) - Wizard 5, VMC Oracle (Spellslinger is awesome flavor-wise with this build)
Battle Herald (lv6) - Exemplar Brawler 5, VMC Cavalier / Strategist Standard Bearer Cavalier 1-4, Sensei Monk 1, any martial 0-3
Rage Prophet (lv6) - Wild Stalker Ranger 5, VMC Oracle
Mystic Theurge is still stuck on lv7, unfortunately.
Of course, with imbue spell ability you can't cast 2nd level spells so much as a single 2nd level spell, so the legality of that trick is dubious at best. Same for the bonded witch thing. I also recall something about not being able to bootstrap PrCs i.e. you can't fulfill PrC requirements using things provided by the same PrC.
Hmmm.
If your first point is right, and it might be, if you have imbue with spell ability cast twice you can cast spells, plural.And say a third level cleric who's wisdom is 13 or less can only cast one level 2 spell a day. And nobody has ever said that does not qualify.
As to the second point, I suspect what is being said their is you have to meet the pre-requisites of a Pr C before you enter it. As opposed to after you have taken your first level of the Pr C.
It wont get you early entry, but would Skald 5, Divine caster 1 get you mystic theurge with a single level dip via the skalds spell kenning, which lets you use one of your spell slots to cast any spell off any list?
I think there is a FaQ to the effect that if a divine caster casts a normally arcane spell for a reason such as spell kenning, it is still a divine spell.
So that won't work, or I think not.
Arcane Trickster can be had at 6th by going Wizard (or Witch) 3/Rogue (or Vivisectionist) 1/Snakebite Striker 1.
In general though they don't happen before level 6 anymore and I think that if you do find a way it will just get nerfed. The intent was pretty clear when the ruling went away and finding a leftover exploit will probably have the opposite effect of what you intend.
Of course, with imbue spell ability you can't cast 2nd level spells so much as a single 2nd level spell, so the legality of that trick is dubious at best. Same for the bonded witch thing. I also recall something about not being able to bootstrap PrCs i.e. you can't fulfill PrC requirements using things provided by the same PrC.Hmmm.
If your first point is right, and it might be, if you have imbue with spell ability cast twice you can cast spells, plural.And say a third level cleric who's wisdom is 13 or less can only cast one level 2 spell a day. And nobody has ever said that does not qualify.
As to the second point, I suspect what is being said their is you have to meet the pre-requisites of a Pr C before you enter it. As opposed to after you have taken your first level of the Pr C.
Let me put it this way.
If you put up an FAQ asking if your trick worked and the dev team responded, what would you expect the answer to be?
That's why I would never actually advise trying this at the table. The vast majority of GMs would either give you the "you have got to be ****ing kidding me" look, or they will just offer to change the prereqs to something more workable. In either case, the legally dubious trickery isn't doing you any good.
As for the requirements thing, here's what I was thinking of.
Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
That's what I was thinking of. I don't know whether "any case" means any case when retraining, or any case in general, but I would put money on paizo saying it was the latter.
This isn't early entry, but with the rogue vmc you can get into arcane trickster without losing CL, which is cool.
Snowblind- On using Imbue with Spell Ability to qualify for early entry into a PrC, I think by the RAW [subject to the next paragraph] it works just fine, and you only need to have it cast on you once. It involves considerable practical difficulties.
On the FaQs you quote, I am not 100% sure what they mean either, neither am I certain what "rule elements" refers to exactly.
As to GMs, there is no shortage of those that think the old FaQ made some PrCs vaible and the new FaQ was a mistake.
On your guessing what Piazo would say on the matter, I would guess the same way on the 1st issue at least.
Snowblind- On using Imbue with Spell Ability to qualify for early entry into a PrC, I think by the RAW [subject to the next paragraph] it works just fine, and you only need to have it cast on you once. It involves considerable practical difficulties.
On the FaQs you quote, I am not 100% sure what they mean either, neither am I certain what "rule elements" refers to exactly.
As to GMs, there is no shortage of those that think the old FaQ made some PrCs vaible and the new FaQ was a mistake.
On your guessing what Piazo would say on the matter, I would guess the same way on the 1st issue at least.
There is no way this counts as ability to cast for anything. The fact that you can manipulate events so that you can use a standard action to cast a spell as a one time thing doesn't mean you can cast, just like being able to cast from a scroll doesn't fill your prerequisites.
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On the FaQs you quote, I am not 100% sure what they mean either, neither am I certain what "rule elements" refers to exactly.
Lets say I am a wizard. I want to become a bloat mage. This requires me to be able to cast level 3 spells.
So at level 6, I have 5 levels of wizard, I take a level of bloat mage.
In now cast as a level 6 wizard. Oh look, if I train away a level of wizard, I still cast as a level 5 wizard (wizard 4, bloat mage 1) Okay, I will retrain a level of wizard into a level of bloat mage.
Oh, hey, I still cast as a level 6 wizard (wizard 4, bloat mage 2) , lets retrain a level of wizard to bloat mage... lather, rinse, repeat.
Now I am a level 1 wizard, level 5 bloat mage, and I still meet the requirements of casting 3rd level spells, because the class feature Spells per Day/Spells Known advances your spellcasting. This is using a rules element of the prestige class to qualify for the class. They said rules element, not class feature, because people were pulling similar stunts with fighters and prestige classes that required BAB +5
Then they added the next line because people were still pulling shenanigans.
There is no way this counts as ability to cast for anything. The fact that you can manipulate events so that you can use a standard action to cast a spell as a one time thing doesn't mean you can cast, just like being able to cast from a scroll doesn't fill your prerequisites.The ability to cast a spell does not mean you can cast a spell you say.
To quote from the spell in question- "You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them, to another creature. "
& "To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must be able to move freely. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus."
The spell description says four times the recipient casts the spell.
Of course, with imbue spell ability you can't cast 2nd level spells so much as a single 2nd level spell, so the legality of that trick is dubious at best. Same for the bonded witch thing. I also recall something about not being able to bootstrap PrCs i.e. you can't fulfill PrC requirements using things provided by the same PrC.Hmmm.
If your first point is right, and it might be, if you have imbue with spell ability cast twice you can cast spells, plural.
The use of the plural form, spells, doesn't matter.
The design team does not consider a prerequisite or requirement of "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells" to literally mean "ability to cast at least two or more 1st-level arcane spells."
Being able to cast one spell of that type and level meets the prerequisite or requirement (if the prerequisite or requirement was intended to mean "two or more," it would say that, or use language like "at least two").
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So, I just want to know how you are getting a cleric to cast this on you for the rest of your life:
Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell. In the meantime, you remain responsible to your deity or your principles for the use to which the spell is put.
At a minimum we are talking about paying them something like 280 gp a day. (since you are basically using up their 4th level slot every day.) In addition to which, since you aren't actually casting the spell, they have to justify why they have tied up a portion of their dieties power indefinitely just so you can have faster, easier access to power. debatably they are also now answerable to their diety for everything you ever do that involves you having the Mystic Theurge class.
On a practical note, I would rule that the recipient is not casting the spells, since the spells use your caster level, not theirs. If you are going to go this route, it might make more sense to go nagaji, and get some nagaji scale polish, which won't tie up the casters spell slots for the rest of their life.
So, I just want to know how you are getting a cleric to cast this on you for the rest of your life:
Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell. In the meantime, you remain responsible to your deity or your principles for the use to which the spell is put.
At a minimum we are talking about paying them something like 280 gp a day. (since you are basically using up their 4th level slot every day.) In addition to which, since you aren't actually casting the spell, they have to justify why they have tied up a portion of their dieties power indefinitely just so you can have faster, easier access to power. debatably they are also now answerable to their diety for everything you ever do that involves you having the Mystic Theurge class.
On a practical note, I would rule that the recipient is not casting the spells, since the spells use your caster level, not theirs. If you are going to go this route, it might make more sense to go nagaji, and get some nagaji scale polish, which won't tie up the casters spell slots for the rest of their life.
I agree. The idea that you can qualify for a prestige class because someone cast a spell on you just seems wrong to me. It would be like letting someone with a 9 STR qualify for Power Attack because someone cast Bull's Strength on them. I think that I would treat Imbue With Spell Ability as a "temporary" ability like Bull's Strength and not let it count as a prerequisite.
Imbue With Spell Ability does talk about the recipient "casting the spell" but as you say, it uses the cleric's caster level. Also that phrasing is often used loosely in the rules. For example...
Ring of Spell Storing, Minor
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast.
It says that the wearer casts the spell, but I don't think anyone would let a character qualify for Mystic Theurge just because they were wearing this ring with a Spiritual Weapon spell stored inside.
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Eh, it's the only way to get a shadow companion.Also known as being hella lame. People actually using prestige classes? Stop that s!@* right now
Fetchling can have shadow eidolon. + summon hordes of shadow planes creatures which is by far way more useful than the shadow companion.
But anyway...yeah prestige classes so far either needs a buff to be worth the investment or simply just admit that they don't exist anymore.
Gisher- What you say is arguable.
I believe that with your example of Bull's Strength and Power Attack, if you have an item that increases your strength and wear it for 24 hours then the strength bonus counts as permanent and you satisfy the pre-requisites for things like power attack, so long as you still have the item. Perhaps this is more like the case with imbue with spell ability.
If you look at my first post it has the word "may" and mentions the practical difficulties.
Pathfinder has a couple of things in common with Magic the Gathering, one being that the games are very complicated. The other is WotC rulings, and in Pathfinder FaQs, define the rules. Both FaQs and rulings sometimes go back and forth on the same question, seem contradictory and would be clearly wrong if they came from another source.
I think this is a result of playing very complicated games, but in a perfect world would not happen.
Normal use of language is a lot more ambiguous than people realise, this is why you can't write a computer program to carry on a normal conversation. When you have as much text as the Pathfinder rules, the number of ambiguities and contradictions are going to be huge.
I have been told I am making a clear error for saying that imbue with spell ability allows the recipient to cast a spell, therefore the recipient can cast a spell. The spell description says that 4 times, and as I said I used the word "may".
Compare this to the old, reversed FaQ to the effect SLAs can qualify you for a PrC. Saying a SLA is a spell would be clearly wrong if... it were not a FaQ.
Some people who post on these forums are convinced there is only one possible interpretation of the rules, their's, and they somehow magically know what the Piazo development team would say in a FaQ.
Gisher- What you say is arguable.
It's totally arguable. I tried to phrase my post so that it would be clear that I was just stating my personal interpretation. I guess that I failed.
I believe that with your example of Bull's Strength and Power Attack, if you have an item that increases your strength and wear it for 24 hours then the strength bonus counts as permanent and you satisfy the pre-requisites for things like power attack, so long as you still have the item. Perhaps this is more like the case with imbue with spell ability.
It is possible. The items that you are referring to have specific clauses stating that they count as permanent after 24 hours. I compared a spell to a spell rather than a spell to an item for that very reason. Since the Imbue With Spell Ability is permanent until used or cancelled by the cleric, you could make the argument that it is more like a magic belt than a temporary spell. I don't see it that way, but I can see the logic behind that argument.
I have been told I am making a clear error for saying that imbue with spell ability allows the recipient to cast a spell, therefore the recipient can cast a spell. The spell description says that 4 times, and as I said I used the word "may".
Well I never said that you were clearly in error. And you are correct that Imbue With Spell Ability mentions that the subject casts the granted spell. But as I noted, so does a Ring of Spell Storing. I am curious as to whether you would also allow someone wearing a Ring of Spell Storing containing a Spiritual Weapon spell to get early entry because they can cast a 2nd level divine spell.
I just found out that you can no longer use a SLA as a way to get into a prestige class any more. Meaning a lot of characters might be invalid.
...when did they change that? And why?
Ah well, I'm still going to ignore this new ruling as DM.
I just found out that you can no longer use a SLA as a way to get into a prestige class any more. Meaning a lot of characters might be invalid....when did they change that? And why?
Ah well, I'm still going to ignore this new ruling as DM.
They changed it on February 18, 2015.
I wonder ... aside from the 3rd level eldritch knight trick, what could you do with the old SLA ruling that mattered? Arcane tricksters, evangelists and mystic theurges were still marginal and easily replaced by single classed characters with appropriate archetypes.
Aiming for early prestige classing just for the sake of pulling something on the game system seems pointless. What do you want to do with your character which might use an early prestige class entry?
(Edit): using it for Arcane strike or other feats aside that is. I'm talking about the PrC use.
avr- I think that there are a lot of players who were playing Dungeons and Dragons from long ago and want to re-create the kinds of characters they were playing then.
It is mystic theurges [especially], arcane tricksters and eldritch knights that seem to attract resentment for not really being viable. There are a huge number of PrCs in pathfinder and most of them are no better.
People are not trying to rort the system as such, they just want to be able to what they did long ago with a viable character. That is my theory.
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But there are better options to recreate those characters than PrCs now.
If I wanted to recreate a 1st/2nd edition AD&D Fighter/Mage, I'd make a Magus. If I wanted to recreate 1st/2nd edition AD&D Mage/Cleric, I'd make an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle. If I wanted to recreate a 1st/2nd edition AD&D Fighter/Cleric, I'd make a Warpriest. 1st/2nd edition AD&D Druid/Ranger, I'd make a Hunter. 1st/2nd edition AD&D Mage/Thief, Sandman Bard or Vivisectionist alchemist.
Gisher- What you say is arguable.It's totally arguable. I tried to phrase my post so that it would be clear that I was just stating my personal interpretation. I guess that I failed.
I have been told I am making a clear error for saying that imbue with spell ability allows the recipient to cast a spell, therefore the recipient can cast a spell. The spell description says that 4 times, and as I said I used the word "may".Well I never said that you were clearly in error. And you are correct that Imbue With Spell Ability mentions that the subject casts the granted spell. But as I noted, so does a Ring of Spell Storing. I am curious as to whether you would also allow someone wearing a Ring of Spell Storing containing a Spiritual Weapon spell to get early entry because they can cast a 2nd level divine spell.
I was a bit irritated by the tone of some comments. But not yours, you were putting forth an opinion in a way that caused no offence. It is likely me that was not being clear.
On the question about a ring of spell storing, I am not running pathfinder at present, and if I was I would use a house rule devised by a friend of mine. That is, you can gain entry to PrCs such as mystic theurge using SLAs as per the old FaQ, but you cannot take your first level in the PrC until level 6.
The reasoning is that using the old FaQ you can take your first level in mystic theurge at level 4, with very specific races and clerical domains or the like, and that is rather too good. Using the current FaQ makes mystic theurge very weak.
So in those circumstances I would allow a ring of spell storing or imbue with spell ability to allow early entry. Such routes just allow characters of different races or clerical domains early entry, with some work or expense.
If I changed my mind and were to run under the current FaQ and the RAW, I probably would not allow either. Not because the RAW disallows it, the meaning of the relevant parts of the rules can be debated and my personal view is that the RAW allows early entry thus. But because it is so inconsistent with the new FaQ.
So yes and no, depending on what is allowed for other PCs.
avr- I think that there are a lot of players who were playing Dungeons and Dragons from long ago and want to re-create the kinds of characters they were playing then.
It is mystic theurges [especially], arcane tricksters and eldritch knights that seem to attract resentment for not really being viable. There are a huge number of PrCs in pathfinder and most of them are no better.
People are not trying to rort the system as such, they just want to be able to what they did long ago with a viable character. That is my theory.
The bolded emphasis is the crux of the matter. By RAW you cannot replicate old school multiple-classed characters. You have to house-rule them in. The closest to this is gestalt from 3e's 'Unearthed Arcana', which isn't even in Pathfinder save by way of 'backwards compatibility'. Even that only allows for two classes as-written, you have to extrapolate the rest. Not that it's particularly difficult, save that nothing 'official' supports it.
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I wonder ... aside from the 3rd level eldritch knight trick, what could you do with the old SLA ruling that mattered? Arcane tricksters, evangelists and mystic theurges were still marginal and easily replaced by single classed characters with appropriate archetypes.
Aiming for early prestige classing just for the sake of pulling something on the game system seems pointless. What do you want to do with your character which might use an early prestige class entry?
(Edit): using it for Arcane strike or other feats aside that is. I'm talking about the PrC use.
2nd level bloat mage entry is gross. Just, seriously, no holds barred gross.
I am currently playing a grandfathered one in PFS. There are not enough rounds of combat in a day to get through my bloat pool, let alone my daily spells.
At 5th level, just as you are getting third level spells, the bloat mage gets 4 bloat + 1d8x2 (+2 +roll twice and take the best for each with fortifying leaches.) That works out (with the leaches) to an average of 17 bloat points per day, or 5-6 extra 3rd level spells.
It is even worse in PFS, since level 13+ which is where all the non early entry people would start to catch up as I top out is where PFS stops playing, more or less.
The bolded emphasis is the crux of the matter. By RAW you cannot replicate old school multiple-classed characters. You have to house-rule them in. The closest to this is gestalt from 3e's 'Unearthed Arcana', which isn't even in Pathfinder save by way of 'backwards compatibility'. Even that only allows for two classes as-written, you have to extrapolate the rest. Not that it's particularly difficult, save that nothing 'official' supports it.avr- I think that there are a lot of players who were playing Dungeons and Dragons from long ago and want to re-create the kinds of characters they were playing then.
It is mystic theurges [especially], arcane tricksters and eldritch knights that seem to attract resentment for not really being viable. There are a huge number of PrCs in pathfinder and most of them are no better.
People are not trying to rort the system as such, they just want to be able to what they did long ago with a viable character. That is my theory.
That is what I thought.
People like to have fun like they did in the "good old days".This may be related to why 4th Edition D and D is not just unpopular, but outright hated, by many players. I think 4th ed, just considered as a RPG is quite good, from the little experience I have of it. But it changed a huge number of things that players didn't want changed, and it wasn't their game any more. Which is how Paizo got so popular.