Here is my first forum post on here ever and I need some DM advice!
I'm having a problem with magic, long story short. My players are a lot more experienced then I, by about 10 years. Players are using magic in ways that are literally breaking my games challenge. They are all level 9. The party is magic heavy with a wizard, sorcerer, rogue, and cleric.
For example, they battled against a demon lord (home brewed) and they hilariously whooped him (And this guy was statted like you wouldn't believe). This demon lord also had a gigantic beast on his side, think something like Cho-Gath for you league of legends players. One player who had a flight spell on simply flew up to the monster, stabbed it in the eye and used enlarge sword to puncture its brain, taking down what was supposed to be a very power beast literally instantly.
Another example is gloves of shaping. My next villain is literally a golem with intelligence. Think Ultron. One of players has gloves of shaping. He could literally just pin it down with a clever trap, glove of shaping, and kill it right away.
I'm having a very difficult time and I'm getting a little frustrated with their crazy use of magic. What can I do to make it a little harder for players to just flip a dues ex machina switch on my tougher monsters, encounters, traps, NPC's, etc.
Thank you.
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Magic is capable of ruining games when applied heavily enough, but that's not what's going on here.
You let them OHKO Cho-Gath in the brain through his eye socket. This can't happen because:
-moving up to the eye, then attacking, then casting a (non-quickened) spell is beyond the limits of their action economy.
-Enlarge sword is not a spell as far as I know.
-The rules do not generally support such a detailed and specific move as stabbing through the eye to the brain. If they hit it with a sword, it takes sword damage + strength modifier, etc. etc. Anything beyond that is pure flavor.
Magic isn't even the problem. You are letting them be overpowered because you're not playing by the rules.
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The game changes dramatically around those levels.
My first recommendation is start slow. Get used to GMing lower level groups first.
Additional recommendations:
1) The BBEG always fights in his element. A flying BBEG should have range abilities and a way of dealing with pursuers.
Ex. Demon baddie should have dispel magic SLA or scroll for the spell/potion flying PCs. Summoned flying minions can grapple winged PCs and fall to their deaths together (the summoned creatures just go back to home plane so no suicide concerns).
2) Lots of helpers. Bad guys who don't have a legion of peons frankly aren't worth their salt. The PC's should have difficulty even reaching the bad guy. If things are looking bad, he should retreat and sacrifice his minions to buy him time.
3) The PCs use magic items to shore up thier weaknesses, so the baddies should do the same. (Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier to prevent crit happy x4 weapons)
4) Any creature with Magic Resistance and crit/precision immunity would likely decimate that party or at least make them sweat.
5) I see nothing in Gloves of Shaping that would trivialize a construct encounter. Give the golem Freedom of Movement and he can't be held or grappled .
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I'm with DominusMegadeus. I don't understand, if one of the characters flew up to the monsters eye, make them role a dirty trick combat manoeuvre and attempt to blind it. if it failed the check, it doesn't blind the monster and does no damage, as for striking the monster through the eye to get to the brain. if a creature was helpless you can't even do that,
"Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace."
just start enforcing the mechanics of the game. there is no mechanic in the game for stabbing out someones eye, then stabbing the brain through the eye socket. but there are mechanics for blinding, and attacking a helpless opponent.
If that happens, I will just make a boss that is immune to magic and elemental damage. Only way to kill it is physical combat. It only happened to me once, my players was about to flip the table because they are all magic user pretty much. Until the leader, the Cleric, start buffing the Druid, then the Wizard and the Sorcerer helped. There were two beast ripping the boss to pieces with teamwork and tactics. Normally I will be very kind to casters at level 1, than I get really harsh against magic later on because if they are not smart, don't play casters. So magic hardly ever gets out of hands in my games.
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Hmm, the huge experience gap between your players and you is a problem indeed. Your players will always be tempted to bend the rules ('Of course that's possible!'), not because they are meanies but because they want to experience new situations and enjoy successful creative moves.
If you start arguing 'That's not possible according to the rules', they will probably comply with you but on the long run they will lose interest. Your best bet is: Catch up! If you have the time, spend hours on reading rule books, wikis and forum entries. Soak up any knowledge you can get (probably make notes somewhere), focused on what affects your group. Don't be passive (accepting their rule interpretations), rather be active (give them unusual creatures and battlefields, check the rules carefully before).
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From your description, which is mostly story-like description, your players have pretty low understanding of Pathfinder game mechanics. Every action costs something; standard action to cast magic, move action to move at base movement speed, quick action to use judgement or arcane pool, etc. Your Pathfinder knowledge is most likely horrible because you just started and it's possible that your group is using this to their advantage although I am not saying they are doing so intentionally.
Your best course of action is to open a Core Rulebook and start reading. It's gonna take some time, but there is no easy way around it. Learn the rules and understand them. The more you learn, the more you can respond to your players with things like "gloves of shaping auto-killing golem" (if I understood it right).
Additional tip, magic isn't everything. Spells do what is written in their description and nothing more. Magic cannot and can rarely kill outright. "Auto-kill" effects are literally non-existant.
Adam
Gloves of shaping state "The wearer can shape objects with hardness 8..."
Emphasis, as always, is mine.
Pathfinder uses a system of keywords; 'object[s]' being one of them.
Your golem is not an object, so the gloves of shaping won't work on it.
Additionally, your golem likely has immunity to all spells that are subject to spell resistance like every golem in the bestiary.
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If the players are taking advantage of their (supposed) rules knowledge. Tell them that anything they do they need to show you the exact rule which lets them do it.
As nothing described in the OP is in the rules this will probably slow them down.
Make them use the rules as written then once you are actually comfortable gm'ing start making calls on crazy ideas it will then be harder for them to push you into accepting game breaking ideas.
If this is early in your gm;ing career you may be better off running a low level game (if this one has moved form level 1 to level 9 thats different) you could suggest taking a break form this game to run another low level game to give yourself more experience.
I don't think anything in your OP would have been allowed by me
As a GM/DM it would probably be a good idea to have copies of all the character sheets, and a big red pen...?
Plus, have you kept an eye on the wealth-by-level and equivalent items they have?
I'd recommend avoiding home brew because it sounds like you're having issues with balance. If you insist on running characters at higher level then find a good module or one part of an adventure path to run for them and modify it with homebrew elements. It will help you maintain your game balance.
That said, players are always managing to one shot kill Big Bad guys because they usually recognize them and unleash their full powers when they see them. The thing to do is throw in some interference with an appropriate assortment of minions designed to take advantage of the terrain. Adding even the simplest minions can make a huge difference because it adds action economy to the villains side and gives them more options during the round.
I had a funny experience with a Big Bad in a dungeon where the PCs all but one shotted him when they met him. But during the fight they had the most trouble with a simple zombie minion that was also attacking while everyone was focused on the Big Bad. The zombie almost managed to kill a player during the chaos. It was quite amusing actually.
Simple answer, stick with published adventures. Add more minions.
Pick up a free copy of Troll In the Corner's Guide to the Pathfinder Combat Round as it provides an easy to access set of charts with actions and whether or not they provoke attacks of opportunity.
A called shot to stab through an eye should have been -5 at a minimum with perhaps an additional -5 to get it to actually stick into the eye.
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Okay everyone else is dancing around the issue I'll state it outright:
Your players are f@#$ing cheating.
If they are not then they are as ignorant to the rules as you. None of what you just described should be remotely possible. This isn't Mage from white wolf where anything and everything is possible, only specific things can be done with each magic, and there is not a magic for every situation, or do do any specific thing.
They are taking advantage of you in the worst way. If you decide to continue playing with them then I recommend that at every action you are not completely familiar with ask for rules showing they they can do what they want to do. Every single one.
Also become intimately familiar with action economy rules, because if you are not familiar with them, there is a lot that can slip past you in terms of what should be possible in a round. You should be asking what takes a standard, a move, a swift, an immediate, and what takes free actions. Remember there is nothing in the game outside of the mythic rules (which you are not using) that gives more actions. This is very important.
Also be very familiar with initiative rules. What can be done before initiative is rolled? (Answer: not much) What qualifies as a surprise round.
If you have the time look over the first five levels of sorcerer/wizard spells (it's the same list), especially those the sorcerer knows, as those will come up most often. Don't let him cast spells he doesn't know.
Honestly I would consider flipping the bird to these 'friends' and telling them to find someone else to run their games, their actions are not those of friends.
Your players are f@#$ing cheating.
This. It doesn't take a lot of Pathfinder rules knowledge to know that at-will one-shotting big baddies doesn't work. They should know better.
Also, the sort of thing they are doing, making up reasons outside the rules for auto-killing things, they will do that regardless of whether they have spells. They aren't using a deus-ex-machina switch. They are using a cheat button.
That being said, here are a couple of suggestions for you, assuming you will GM for non-cheater players instead of this group:
-Start at level 1.
-Don't allow full-caster characters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Oracle, Witch, Advanced Players Guide Summoner, Arcanist, Shaman). A party can function just fine with hybrid casters, like Bards, Inquisitors, and Maguses, and it will be a lot less difficult to tell a good story.
-Keep the PC spell lists confined to spells from the Core Rulebook.
-Have levelling-up happen at the table. That way, you can not only see what your PCs' new capabilities are, but you have have your players explain them to you. For example, it is really nice to know that one of your players just picked up the spell see invisibility. This knowledge lets you better plan future sessions, because you will know what to expect and what your players can deal with.
Its good that you are trying GMing! Just clear out this bad player behavior in favor of good behavior and you will be in good shape!
-Matt
This. It doesn't take a lot of Pathfinder rules knowledge to know that at-will one-shotting big baddies doesn't work. They should know better.
Your players are f@#$ing cheating.
Optimized Pummeling Style user says hi, but most optimized martials also qualify if we take "one shot" to mean "one round kill." The "I called shot it to the brain so I insta-win right?" bullshit has to go though.
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Thanks guys! I think all of these are great answers and I appreciate the help. I'd reply to all of you, but suffice to say I've learned a little bit from every comment.
There has been some confusion with the rules, after speaking to some players and checking out their character sheets, which is only natural. A lot of this is also my fault for not being more careful with the rules and double checking things when I should have, and there have been times where I should have made sure something could have been done.
For those checking back at this, I will be
- Double checking rules more often. I know this slows the game, but sometimes it's best to be safe
- Spending some time to go over player character sheets. I already peeked at them, but I want to discuss them a bit more indepth.
- Paying better attention to wealth by level. All but one of my players are within wealth by level and that is only because the rogue is a greedy kleptomaniac.
- Most importantly is this point: I will be reading the rules, the books, and digging a bit deeper into what other DM's are doing to enhance their player experiences.
Just wanted to say thanks for the advice! Very friendly responses.
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If you really want to learn to be a better GM, start GMing a pre-written campaign at 1st level. The rules are much simpler at 1st level and players start off with one or two tricks each. Screw XP. Just level them at the midpoint and end of each module, or whenever you feel like you've gotten the hang of the level they're on and are ready to move on. And by sticking to pre-written adventures/APs, you've got some outside perspective on what are fair challenges and what fair rewards are. Good luck.
I've been thinking about this thread, and I want to reiterate the "no full casters" recommendation. One of the reasons I've been thinking about is that full casters, more often than not, can only participate in the story by casting things. So, they are often locked into interacting with your world in ways that are very disruptive.
Meanwhile, non-full casters have other options for interacting with the story, like skills (ex: Bard, Inquisitor) or through physical combat (ex: Magus, Warpriest). They don't have to resort to casting spells in every scene, so they are most often less disruptive to your story.
Just a thought.
-Matt