Defending against a dominated fellow PC.


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 5/5

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
There are ways to avoid these kinds of situations.... and there is a reason, that my hunter's animal companion has a wayfinder with a certain ioun stone instead of her.

Eh, that assumes owning Seeker of Secrets, and even then a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a wayfinder isn't 100% effective.

Scarab Sages

UndeadMitch wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
There are ways to avoid these kinds of situations.... and there is a reason, that my hunter's animal companion has a wayfinder with a certain ioun stone instead of her.
Eh, that assumes owning Seeker of Secrets, and even then a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a wayfinder isn't 100% effective.

i agree - dominate animal could very likely come from a neutral combatant

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I wasn't suggesting word games with the "take care of them" but taking them out non-lethally would eliminate them as fighting combatants just as well as lethally - so could walling them off or dropping them in pit.

--

I was GMing a crossblooded fireball specialist (the two two trait specialized version) who got dominated and it was very messy - non empyreal sorcerers without the irrepresible trait tend to have low will saves, and crossblooded makes it worse.


Cap of the Free Thinker is a wise investment for a beatstick with less than optimal Will Saves...Iron Will should also be taken

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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Suppress charms and compulsions?

Way cheaper and more useful than the ioun stone trick.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Suppress charms and compulsions?

Way cheaper and more useful than the ioun stone trick.

It's a good after-the-fact complement to Protection from X, but I have to wonder. It's a Save Negates (Harmless) spell.

Would a dominated character try the save? As I understand Dominate Person, it doesn't actually change someone's attitude, it just forces the person to carry out orders. So the dominated person would be aware of what's going on, and probably resent the domination, and be willing to accept Harmless spells from the people he still knows are his allies.

As a significant bonus, Suppress Charms & Compulsions also works against Confusion.

---

If the saving throw is giving you trouble, there's also the more exotic solution of using a medlance loaded with [url=http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Essence%20of%20independence]essence of independence]. Touch attack to deliver the Essence; the only save your ally will be rollling is the one to shake off the Dominate, and at a whopping +4 alchemical bonus.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Essence of Independence linkified

Silver Crusade 5/5

Ascalaphus wrote:


If the saving throw is giving you trouble, there's also the more exotic solution of using a medlance loaded with [url=http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Essence%20of%20independence]essence of independence]. Touch attack to deliver the Essence; the only save your ally will be rollling is the one to shake off the Dominate, and at a whopping +4 alchemical bonus.

That works if you've played the one or two scenarios that have a medlance on the cert, since all of of the equipment in the Tech Guide is off-limits unless it's on a cert.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/55/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

Of course, you could do what I did against a certain dominated ranger in Legacy of the Stonelords last year.... That is take a full round attack in the face, leaving my poor rigs only a few ho from dead (and he was full up prior to that!)

But, no hard feelings, Zack. As I said at the time, you had no choice , but I appreciated that you felt bad about it.

Honestly, there is no good way of dealing with being dominated. Just remember that whatever happens play your characters, and by adults about it.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the greatest mind-controlled party member events of my career is when the unkillable mutagen'd melee alchemist got suggested to kill the barbarian. My Magus cast glitterdust on him, blinding him, then handed him a potion. "Here, drink this! It'll cure your blindness so you can kill the barbarian!"

It was a potion of protection from evil, and he made the second suggestion save. (And then quickly thereafter, the glitterdust save.)

Scarab Sages Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu

UndeadMitch wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
There are ways to avoid these kinds of situations.... and there is a reason, that my hunter's animal companion has a wayfinder with a certain ioun stone instead of her.
Eh, that assumes owning Seeker of Secrets, and even then a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a wayfinder isn't 100% effective.

Actually, the Ioun Stone doesn'the even work on the animal companion. Seekers of Secrets specifically calls out Ioun Stone effects not working on animals. I'm unable to access my books at the moment, but it's around page 40-45.

Silver Crusade 5/5

WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
There are ways to avoid these kinds of situations.... and there is a reason, that my hunter's animal companion has a wayfinder with a certain ioun stone instead of her.
Eh, that assumes owning Seeker of Secrets, and even then a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a wayfinder isn't 100% effective.
Actually, the Ioun Stone doesn'the even work on the animal companion. Seekers of Secrets specifically calls out Ioun Stone effects not working on animals. I'm unable to access my books at the moment, but it's around page 40-45.

My comment on Clear Spindle Ioun Stones wasn't really directed toward using it for animals, it was a general comment on the much vaunted Clear Spindle Ioun Stone.

But...

Pathfinder Society FAQ wrote:


Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot.

Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.

The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

Judging by the bolded section, I would think that AC's and familiars can indeed use Ioun Stones, provided they have the 3 INT. Whether they can hold the wayfinder it's slotted into is another question, one that isn't really relevant to the topic at hand and should probably go elsewhere.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Jeff Merola wrote:
Roasa Annarey Hellena de Noire wrote:
My point is.. you say I can't protect myself or the others because killing a dominated player is a 'jerk move'. My question is.. if you can't save him.. how many other members of the party had to die before it's not a 'jerk move' to kill him?
That's not at all what he said. He was calling the "I built my PC to kill others while dominated" guy a jerk.

Actually, it sounded more like: "I have built my PC to be a massive beatstick, but I am easily dominated, as I have no Will save."

Had a player with a PC built as a bodyguard, but an 8 Wisdom, no cloak of resistance, no clear spindle Ioun stone, nothing. High Con, low Str, High AC, the Bodyguard line of feats. We went up against a succubus. He failed his +1 Will save against her DC 20+ Dominate Person.

We almost TPKed trying to take him down so we could get to the sucubbus he was protecting. Mainly because he pulled out his offence, which was a couple of Elemental Gems....

RealAlchemy wrote:
In a scenario that shall remain nameless, a fellow Pathfinder (NPC)was dominated by a cursed item and if the NPC was killed the players would get a negative boon for killing a fellow Pathfinder. My party tried really hard to knock the guy out thather than kill him, but wth the damage that was being dished out, I finally had to swing for lethal in an attempt to save the party and killed him due to misjudging how low he was from previous hits. From the precedent there, it seems like you should do your best to avoid killing - disarm him, knock him unconscious, swipe his spell components, hit him with a tanglefoot bag, etc, but if you have to drop him to save your party, just cross your fingers that he won't hit neg Con.

Remember, and remind your GM, that nonlethal and lethal damage are tracked separately, with nonlethal total being compared to current hit points.

As someone else in the thread mentioned, the nonlethal damage has to exceed total hit points before you start counting the excess damage as nonlethal.

Grand Lodge 4/5

kinevon wrote:


Actually, it sounded more like: "I have built my PC to be a massive beatstick, but I am easily dominated, as I have no Will save."

Assuming what was quoted was accurate, no, that's not what was said.

Blazej wrote:
I have known one player with significant position in society play that who called out that they had specifically made a high lethality melee character while intentionally minimizing his defenses against enchantments to give GM tools (his dominated character) to kill the party.

The player deliberately made a highly lethal character that would be easy to dominate, and explicitly said as much. There's a difference between "My defenses are low" and "I deliberately made my defenses as low as possible." The former is, at most, a bad idea. The latter is being a jerk.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Don't forget, like the Sleep spell, the Dominate spell (and SLA) is a one round action, so there's time to act! A figher might even apply the oil of Suppress Charms and Compulsions himself if he is informed.

'Act normally' is also a good time to oil up!

4/5 5/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
kinevon wrote:


Actually, it sounded more like: "I have built my PC to be a massive beatstick, but I am easily dominated, as I have no Will save."

Assuming what was quoted was accurate, no, that's not what was said.

Blazej wrote:
I have known one player with significant position in society play that who called out that they had specifically made a high lethality melee character while intentionally minimizing his defenses against enchantments to give GM tools (his dominated character) to kill the party.
The player deliberately made a highly lethal character that would be easy to dominate, and explicitly said as much. There's a difference between "My defenses are low" and "I deliberately made my defenses as low as possible." The former is, at most, a bad idea. The latter is being a jerk.

That was the case, although I'm certainly not an unbiased observer so I did not pass their exact comments. For clarity, their description for their goal was not killing explicitly for the goal of party members. They said they liked giving the GM more tools for challenging encounters under the premise that scenarios were/are too easy and did not give the GM tools to sufficiently threaten the party.

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Don't forget, like the Sleep spell, the Dominate spell (and SLA) is a one round action, so there's time to act! A figher might even apply the oil of Suppress Charms and Compulsions himself if he is informed.

'Act normally' is also a good time to oil up!

I thought spell-like abilities were standard actions even for replicating longer casting time spells.

"Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity." -Bestiary, Univeral Monster Rules, Spell-like Abilities.

I could read that as saying, if it doesn't replicate an actual spell, then it takes a standard action by default, otherwise it uses the spell description for the actual casting time, but I have always read that as the standard action overrides the normal casting time unless the ability specifically calls out a different casting time.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5

Eh. I've been mind controlled or possessed a handful of times now. The commands are always reasonable, "protect me," and things like that. My friends have never had to kill me--they probably wouldn't even try--instead they just work around me in combat. I'm not that fast, and my friends are smart, with spells like web or glitterdust to keep me occupied. I guess if they had to kill me that would be okay. But I wouldn't make it easy on them, and I am pretty hard to kill.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Blazej wrote:

"Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity." -Bestiary, Univeral Monster Rules, Spell-like Abilities.

I could read that as saying, if it doesn't replicate an actual spell, then it takes a standard action by default, otherwise it uses the spell description for the actual casting time, but I have always read that as the standard action overrides the normal casting time unless the ability specifically calls out a different casting time.

If you read the old 3.5 text, you might be more inclined to read it the spell description determines way.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Blazej wrote:

"Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity." -Bestiary, Univeral Monster Rules, Spell-like Abilities.

I could read that as saying, if it doesn't replicate an actual spell, then it takes a standard action by default, otherwise it uses the spell description for the actual casting time, but I have always read that as the standard action overrides the normal casting time unless the ability specifically calls out a different casting time.

If you read the old 3.5 text, you might be more inclined to read it the spell description determines way.

PRD Core Rulebook section on Spell-Like Abilities in the Magic chapter:

Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.

The 'unless noted otherwise' wording in the Universal Monster Rules is further clarified in the Core Rulebook. 'Unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description' says to me that a spell-like ability takes as long to cast as the spell of the same name.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So it seems that the text developed like this:

First the original 3.5 text:

3.5 wrote:
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

Which was reworded for the CRB for space purposes as follows:

CRB wrote:
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

Which was shorted even more for the Universal Monster Rules:

UMR wrote:
Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise

The Exchange 4/5

I have always read the beastery ruling to be for monsters and the core for players. Maybe have done it wrong all this time but hasn't caused a TPK cause of it. Well have to rethink this though.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I don't think it was intended that something as basic as how SLAs work was intended to differ between monsters and players. If it was really intended to be different it would've been called out with more fanfare. Rather, I think it's a case of word count woes.

If something is defined differently in Bestiary and CRB, I think it's usually wisest to go with the longest, more detailed writeup.


FAQ/discussion thread for spell-like ability casting times.

The Exchange 4/5

I know but it got so confusing in the beginning. When you have to look it up cause you don't remember the rule and get link to one ruling one time and than another next time. It really hasn't ever come up for players and for monsters it mostly came up for summon ability.

Dark Archive

Topic Sla - its often used against me as std. The discussions will go on and on (post there)

Topic dominated character - We had suggestions, charms, and dominates go against us. It depends on the character, avail info, and init.

(my smarter ones kplanes or kspellcraft advise to go non lethal or magically aid)
(My dumber ones retailiate in kind unless instructed otherwise.)

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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Something helpful for everyone when the dominates start flying: Runeward Tattoo. Only costs 1000gp, and does a few things for you. Most important is that you select a school of magic, say, "Enchantment", and then every time something of that spell is cast in 60' of you, you know about it. And get +1 to your saves vs it.

Leads to situations of saying "I've been enchanted with something" as you walk off your suggestion spell.

Also: commonly overlooked spell: Unbreakable Heart
It suppresses any spell that would cause you to hurt your allies - notably Confusion, which the clear spindle never helps against. Also a +4 bonus and sometimes double-rolls against many spells.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Two awesome suggestions, thistledown, thanks.


thistledown wrote:

Something helpful for everyone when the dominates start flying: Runeward Tattoo. Only costs 1000gp, and does a few things for you. Most important is that you select a school of magic, say, "Enchantment", and then every time something of that spell is cast in 60' of you, you know about it. And get +1 to your saves vs it.

Leads to situations of saying "I've been enchanted with something" as you walk off your suggestion spell.

Also: commonly overlooked spell: Unbreakable Heart
It suppresses any spell that would cause you to hurt your allies - notably Confusion, which the clear spindle never helps against. Also a +4 bonus and sometimes double-rolls against many spells.

What books do I need to own for those, they look quite handy?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Runeward Tattoo
Source Magical Marketplace pg. 5

Unbreakable Heart
Source Inner Sea World Guide pg. 296

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