Some suggested revisions and new talent ideas for the warlock (feedback appreciated)


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


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Class feature adjustments: They are able to cast and use all abilities in light and medium armor. I'm sorry but this one should have been a no brainer, if they can't do this then the class as a whole requires an overhaul, especially given the current requirements for just getting more spell levels.

For currently listed talents:
Mystic Bolt: Make it supernatual, have the damage it deals be raw energy, and allow a secondary talent to take an elemental flavoring, said flavoring provides elemental damage and the following
Acid:Save or sickened
Electricity:save or dazed
Fire:save or caught on fire
Frost:save or slow
Save DC is 10+1/2 warlock level +int mod.
(I'd also like to be able to use deadly aim etc. with it but if not that, at least this stuff makes it usable and not entirely pointless at mid to high levels)

Bombs:I'd argue allowing to add int to damage, but if that's too strong, consider allowing them to use other talents to purchase alchemist discoveries related to bombs. It's unlikely to make things too problematic and might even allow for some more variation in spell design.

New Talents:
A talent called eldritch channel that gives a flat +4 bonus on all UMD checks as well as improving the effective caster level and saving throw of wands and spell completion items by 2.

New Talent called dark agent, it is similar in principle to a familiar, it conjures up a being of shadow, it can be destroyed if damaged but can be recalled as a full round action. Any enemy it is adjacent to takes a -2 penalty on saving throws, and to hit, you have to be at least 6th level to take this, it is also a swift to direct and move this creature, it does not exist for purposes of flanking.

New talent called Pact of Power, it would effectively allow abilities in a similar vein to bloodlines, offers some thematic opportunities and can help make individual warlocks more distinct.


no thoughts one way or the other on these?


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Archangel62 wrote:
no thoughts one way or the other on these?

I'm liking these suggestions - our group has agreed that Mystic Bolt should be the signature talent at 1st level, with spell casting coming online without additional talents. Also like making bolt non-elemental, at least at first (lots of classes get elemental rays, few get a pure magic blast...).

I like the new talents, I'm just thinking that Eldritch Channel should have a bit of a drawback when used (requiring a full round, staggering the caster after, taking nonlethal damage, etc)

Also agree on the armor casting.


Mr. Shiny wrote:
Archangel62 wrote:
no thoughts one way or the other on these?

I like the new talents, I'm just thinking that Eldritch Channel should have a bit of a drawback when used (requiring a full round, staggering the caster after, taking nonlethal damage, etc)

Also agree on the armor casting.

Main issue is that the class needs to have some edge when it comes to the mystic arts and why not have that edge be in terms of being able to coax more power out of wands, staves and scrolls. Why add on a weakness for something that is actually worth taking as a talent?

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The bombs talent already opens up bomb discoveries as talents. It's part of the description of the bombs talent.

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I'd personally like to see a talent chain built around the mystic bolt. Basically, make mystic bolt be a real choice against spellcasting.

Improved Mystic Bolt - Add an effect based on your mystic bolt type in addition to adding 1d6 damage. (selectable at 8th)
Acid:Save or sickened for 1 round
Electricity:save or dazed for 1 round
Fire:save or caught on fire for 1 round
Frost:save or entangle for 1 round
Save DC is 10+1/2 warlock level +int mod.

Greater Mystic Bolt - Add an additional 1d6 damage (on top of the d6 for improved), effects extend to 1d4 rounds (selectable at 12th)

Focused Bolt - Take weapon focus (Mystic Bolt) as a bonus feat. At 12th level, add weapon specialization (mystic bolt). At 18th level add greater weapon focus (mystic bolt) Selectable at level 6.

Critical Bolt - Take improved critical (Mystic Bolt). At 13th level add Critical Focus Mystic Bolt. At 18th level, add staggering critical (mystic bolt). Selectable at 8th.

Basically, this would give a real choice of whether to invest in mystic bolts vs investing in spellcasting. I'd like to see bombs be a third viable line of talents, but I don't think it would hold up to the other options. I like it at least being an option though.


Thrawn007 wrote:

I'd personally like to see a talent chain built around the mystic bolt. Basically, make mystic bolt be a real choice against spellcasting.

Improved Mystic Bolt - Add an effect based on your mystic bolt type in addition to adding 1d6 damage. (selectable at 8th)
Acid:Save or sickened for 1 round
Electricity:save or dazed for 1 round
Fire:save or caught on fire for 1 round
Frost:save or entangle for 1 round
Save DC is 10+1/2 warlock level +int mod.

Greater Mystic Bolt - Add an additional 1d6 damage (on top of the d6 for improved), effects extend to 1d4 rounds (selectable at 12th)

Focused Bolt - Take weapon focus (Mystic Bolt) as a bonus feat. At 12th level, add weapon specialization (mystic bolt). At 18th level add greater weapon focus (mystic bolt) Selectable at level 6.

Critical Bolt - Take improved critical (Mystic Bolt). At 13th level add Critical Focus Mystic Bolt. At 18th level, add staggering critical (mystic bolt). Selectable at 8th.

Basically, this would give a real choice of whether to invest in mystic bolts vs investing in spellcasting. I'd like to see bombs be a third viable line of talents, but I don't think it would hold up to the other options. I like it at least being an option though.

But why force them to choose??? You dont see bards having yo make choices. You dont see inquisitors having to sacrifice spells for class abilities... that thought process will just kill the warlock.

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To be fair...none of the choices others make could turn into something like a ranged full attack with 3d6+level with added effects, and lots of feats to back it up.

Why force them to choose? Choices are good. At least interesting choices. I like it when multiple build directions are viable. What I don't like is when one choice is the obvious way to go.

And the hybrid choice is still on the table. You can be a spellcasting warlock who dabbles in mystic bolts. You can be a mystic bolt specialist who dabbles in magic spells. I want the mystic bolt options to be deeper though. It gives more options on how to build the character, as long as the options are worth taking over spellcasting at least some of the time.


But why force him to be a cruddy spell caster or have vlass abilities? Sorcerers get full casting AND pretty nifty abilities. Magus and Bards get crazy abilities AND are better casters...


PIXIE DUST wrote:
But why force him to be a cruddy spell caster or have vlass abilities? Sorcerers get full casting AND pretty nifty abilities. Magus and Bards get crazy abilities AND are better casters...

Which puts us in a different situation, the vigilante does have class abilities but quite often they seem to fluctuate between which 'side' of the class can use them.


Archangel62 wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
But why force him to be a cruddy spell caster or have vlass abilities? Sorcerers get full casting AND pretty nifty abilities. Magus and Bards get crazy abilities AND are better casters...
Which puts us in a different situation, the vigilante does have class abilities but quite often they seem to fluctuate between which 'side' of the class can use them.

You mean the negligible bonus to a social skill? The renown that barely covers a couple of blocks? Their "class abilities" are meh at best.


Oh and spellcasting as a sole "class ability" is weak. Only full casters gwt away with that (and even they have quite a few abilities outside the wizard and cleric)

Scarab Sages

I really don't understand the claim that wizards and clerics don't get good class features.

Wizards get familiars, anything that breaks action economy is fantastic. Diviner Wizard has some of the best class abilities in the game. Repose Domain cleric can knock out things more reliably than a Slumber Hex Witch.


Imbicatus wrote:

I really don't understand the claim that wizards and clerics don't get good class features.

Wizards get familiars, anything that breaks action economy is fantastic. Diviner Wizard has some of the best class abilities in the game. Repose Domain cleric can knock out things more reliably than a Slumber Hex Witch.

They get far fewer things than other classes.

Mind you, some of the things they get are rediculous, but nonetheless, they don't get much.

Wizards get a familiar, scribe scroll, a few bonus feats, and a school, which consists of three powers over twenty levels. And they get spells.

Clerics gets...2 domains. And Channel energy. And they can cast cure/inflict spells spontaneously. Plus spells.

Witch gets...a familiar, and 11 powerful abilities drawn from a long and fairly varied list of hexes. On top of spells. Much more interesting than 3 school powers

This isn't even getting into classes that are really interesting, like the bard, magus and inquisitor. They have piles of class features. Mostly good ones, too.

Scarab Sages

I get that it's a question of quantity. But the quality of the features are VERY strong. Admixture, Necromancy, Divination, Teleportation, and Transmutation are all great and better than 2-3 of the powers that other classes get.

Cleric domains are quite powerful too, Travel gives the same DD and a +10 to move speed. Repose can knock out anyone with no save. Madness is the best single target debuff in the game. Rage gives Barbarian Rage and Rage powers.


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But the simple fact of the matter is that even wizards and clerics get cool abilities ON TOP OF FULL SPELL CASTING where as forcing the warlock to pick between spells OR abilities is just stupid. If a wizard can get cool ababilities AND have reality warping spells, A warlock should not be forced into JUST having spells OR abilities.


PIXIE DUST wrote:
But the simple fact of the matter is that even wizards and clerics get cool abilities ON TOP OF FULL SPELL CASTING where as forcing the warlock to pick between spells OR abilities is just stupid. If a wizard can get cool ababilities AND have reality warping spells, A warlock should not be forced into JUST having spells OR abilities.

Don't be silly. Warlocks don't have to choose between spells or abilities.

A warlock can by level 11 have 4th level casting, and also get a whoppping two talents. Two! That's enough to, like, have bombs. With smoke. How cool is that. And at level 12, the vigilante can have cloudkill bombs. One level before arcane casters gets Simulacrum. Its like they are a wizard who decided to trade out their top three spell levels, a whole bunch of spell slots and the ability to autowin initiative or teleport as a swift action in exchange for a few gas grenades. What a trade, huh? Even better, at level 18 they can get the ability to actually throw more than one more bomb a round. That's so cool, that it's almost worth trading away the ability to literally wish your problems away. Almost.

No...wait. That discovery doesn't have an astrick. No bomb full attacks for vigilantes. Shame. I guess they could...apply an incendiary cloud to their one bomb per round? That's kind of like wishing a foe into the nearest stellar body, or flying around as a Huge Gold Dragon for several hours a day, or stopping time for half a minute. Kind of?

Sorry, but it still annoys the heck out of me that someone at Paizo thought that it was a good idea for the caster specs to get 2 specializations across 11 levels.


Thrawn007 wrote:

The bombs talent already opens up bomb discoveries as talents. It's part of the description of the bombs talent.

You can take some bomb talents not all of them. For example, you can buff a siege engine but can't make your bombs fast or precise.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Thrawn007 wrote:

The bombs talent already opens up bomb discoveries as talents. It's part of the description of the bombs talent.

You can take some bomb talents not all of them. For example, you can buff a siege engine but can't make your bombs fast or precise.

Specifically, you can take Bomb discoveries marked with an asterisk. Fast Bombs does not have the * next to it, so you can't take it as a Warlock.


Imbicatus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Thrawn007 wrote:

The bombs talent already opens up bomb discoveries as talents. It's part of the description of the bombs talent.

You can take some bomb talents not all of them. For example, you can buff a siege engine but can't make your bombs fast or precise.
Specifically, you can take Bomb discoveries marked with an asterisk. Fast Bombs does not have the * next to it, so you can't take it as a Warlock.

Yes, it makes for nonsensical exclusions/inclusions IMO. As I pointed out, I can do more damage with a siege weapon but can't avoid hitting a hostage/innocent bystander cuz some reason...


Also forcing trees of focus (bombs, spells or bolt) is dumb because you can't build a better bomber than the alchemist... since everything is based around alchemist discoveries, so at that point you are literally a piss poor alchemist (alchemist with no spells, no mutagen)


Thrawn007 wrote:

I'd personally like to see a talent chain built around the mystic bolt. Basically, make mystic bolt be a real choice against spellcasting.

Improved Mystic Bolt - Add an effect based on your mystic bolt type in addition to adding 1d6 damage. (selectable at 8th)
Acid:Save or sickened for 1 round
Electricity:save or dazed for 1 round
Fire:save or caught on fire for 1 round
Frost:save or entangle for 1 round
Save DC is 10+1/2 warlock level +int mod.

Greater Mystic Bolt - Add an additional 1d6 damage (on top of the d6 for improved), effects extend to 1d4 rounds (selectable at 12th)

Focused Bolt - Take weapon focus (Mystic Bolt) as a bonus feat. At 12th level, add weapon specialization (mystic bolt). At 18th level add greater weapon focus (mystic bolt) Selectable at level 6.

Critical Bolt - Take improved critical (Mystic Bolt). At 13th level add Critical Focus Mystic Bolt. At 18th level, add staggering critical (mystic bolt). Selectable at 8th.

Basically, this would give a real choice of whether to invest in mystic bolts vs investing in spellcasting. I'd like to see bombs be a third viable line of talents, but I don't think it would hold up to the other options. I like it at least being an option though.

Some good ideas here. As Archangel62 said, Mystic bolt should be untyped raw energy and talents like this could make it a viable alternate build to Warlock spellcasting.


as I said elsewhere, Fuse spell training 2/3 and 5/6, and at spell level 4+ offer the ability to use those spell levels Spells Known and spell slots to add more lower level spells known/uses even if you lack the INT/CHA to use the higher level spells the normal way, chosen when you buy the talent... more variation and allows for interesting choices when playing a build normally unfit for these specializations and talents.

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