Good Player person in my group but loves being the powerful fighting hero (GM needs Help)


Advice

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The Exchange

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Quote:
Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.

These don't stack because Improved Critical says this effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
You aren't answering the questions about the level or where you started. If you all played through the AP from level one why is this only now becoming a problem?
Brother Fen, most of the group (including him) started in AP 1 (Harrowstone) at 2nd level and went up from there. So he has built it through experience of the AP along with my improving the CR of some encounters or the number of opponents. He killed two Kytons last AP that were CR10 in two rounds.

Ah, OK. It's an important distinction to make whether the characters are organic or not as I find that players can make mistakes with higher level builds. Since they're organic, then he deserves to play his character as he built it.

I have a similar situation in my own campaign where I'm running a mythic campaign that includes an half-orc barbarian that is absolutely wrecking foes. A mix of monster types throws them off, for example he has been ineffective every time they encounter a swarm.

Good luck with it. It sounds like you have a good group so you should be able to come up with a method of making things challenging for him and not killing everyone else.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Seranov wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Seranov wrote:

Yeah, what? 30ish damage a round at level 11 is hardly what I'd call overpowering. Especially since he's splitting his attacks between various targets and/or making only one attack a round vs. something outside his reach.

Exactly what is the rest of your group doing that this guy is supposedly making them look bad? More and more it sounds less like he's absurdly strong and just that everyone else is just really, really poorly built.

Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.

Even 60 damage a round is only so-so by that point. Especially since he could, instead of messing around with the Cleave feats and Strike Back, be full attacking every round and REALLY pumping out damage. I'd say he's actually already in a pretty reasonable spot, it's just your other players need to get boosted up to his level.

If he's a decent guy like you say, he'll probably have no problem helping out.

-e-

Also, as far as making enemies tougher: throw the Advanced template on everything and give them full HP instead of the average for their HD. It'll make them tougher, but not overwhelmingly so.

From what I am reading, he has misused greater cleave and strike back. That is on him as a player and me as a GM. I will be revamping that.

Liberty's Edge

Brother Fen wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
You aren't answering the questions about the level or where you started. If you all played through the AP from level one why is this only now becoming a problem?
Brother Fen, most of the group (including him) started in AP 1 (Harrowstone) at 2nd level and went up from there. So he has built it through experience of the AP along with my improving the CR of some encounters or the number of opponents. He killed two Kytons last AP that were CR10 in two rounds.

Ah, OK. It's an important distinction to make whether the characters are organic or not as I find that players can make mistakes with higher level builds. Since they're organic, then he deserves to play his character as he built it.

I have a similar situation in my own campaign where I'm running a mythic campaign that includes an half-orc barbarian that is absolutely wrecking foes. A mix of monster types throws them off, for example he has been ineffective every time they encounter a swarm.

Good luck with it. It sounds like you have a good group so you should be able to come up with a method of making things challenging for him and not killing everyone else.

Have to say, I've played in the campaign where every other fight is a swarm, it's usually not fun for anybody, including the wizard who has to prepare all burning hands to combat the swarms, and if they regularly show up, someone buys a swarmbane clasp, and suddenly it's 2 people fighting while everyone else just runs away and waits for combat to be over. Not really a compelling combat experience.

Also, I'm a little confused as to how the Half-Orc cavalier doesn't show him up, at least in the combats where he uses his challenge.


It appears he's misused Improved Critical and Keen as well.

They don't stack, so his critical threat range should be 15-20, not the 11-20 he's probably using.


Or, worse, the 9-20, depending on how flagrant the misuse is. :P


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
You aren't answering the questions about the level or where you started. If you all played through the AP from level one why is this only now becoming a problem?
Brother Fen, most of the group (including him) started in AP 1 (Harrowstone) at 2nd level and went up from there. So he has built it through experience of the AP along with my improving the CR of some encounters or the number of opponents. He killed two Kytons last AP that were CR10 in two rounds.

Ah, OK. It's an important distinction to make whether the characters are organic or not as I find that players can make mistakes with higher level builds. Since they're organic, then he deserves to play his character as he built it.

I have a similar situation in my own campaign where I'm running a mythic campaign that includes an half-orc barbarian that is absolutely wrecking foes. A mix of monster types throws them off, for example he has been ineffective every time they encounter a swarm.

Good luck with it. It sounds like you have a good group so you should be able to come up with a method of making things challenging for him and not killing everyone else.

Have to say, I've played in the campaign where every other fight is a swarm, it's usually not fun for anybody, including the wizard who has to prepare all burning hands to combat the swarms, and if they regularly show up, someone buys a swarmbane clasp, and suddenly it's 2 people fighting while everyone else just runs away and waits for combat to be over. Not really a compelling combat experience.

Also, I'm a little confused as to how the Half-Orc cavalier doesn't show him up, at least in the combats where he uses his challenge.

Every other encounter would be an extreme. Speaking for my campaign, there is an average of one swarm encounter per module - usually because they're written in by Paizo.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:


Ryjin, on the Strike Back and on some of the conductive channel I didn't. As you know as a GM, we learn a lot about the feats and combos as we go.

He does about in the 20-36 points on his first hit if he doesn't critical. He also has two levels of Bloodrager with his Warpriest. And a Falchion does 1.5 Strength when used with two handed combat. And he is an Aasimar. So, he has flight without wings as a rolled optional class trait (which I witnessed him roll).

That should alleviate a lot of the problem. Strike Back is an interesting Feat, but not an overly powerful one so long as you keep the rules for Readied actions in mind (They take your Standard, meaning stuff like Vital Strike and Cleave and whatnot don't stack).

Likewise, 20-36 points of damage shouldn't be a big deal in Carrion Crown. Just from a quick lookthrough of Ashes at Dawn, powerful enemies have close on 125-150 HP, and a lot of the minions have roughly 50-70.

Since he can only deal that 20-36 damage to one target once per round, he's actually not contributing a whole lot (though Cleave is excellent against minions).

Also keep in mind that Conductive takes double the uses for his Fervor, which he only has probably 10 of per day (6 base +4 for 18 Wis), so 5 daily uses of Conductive.

This also cuts into his more powerful use of Fervor, the Swift action buffing, so every time he does that he cuts his uses of Conductive by one as well.

Rynjin, I did some reading on the strike back feat. It says you can ready an attack as a melee action for this. It doesn't mention it will cost a full round action. From my understanding of the text of the feat in the Core Rulebook, he can ready it as standard action and if he doesn't move, he can make an attack, hold and hold the strike back to hit the opponent no matter the reach range. I may be wrong, so I wanted to see if you have further clarification of it from a thread on here.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

It appears he's misused Improved Critical and Keen as well.

They don't stack, so his critical threat range should be 15-20, not the 11-20 he's probably using.

He is using a threat range of 15-20.

Liberty's Edge

Brother Fen wrote:
Every other encounter would be an extreme. Speaking for my campaign, there is an average of one swarm encounter per module - usually because they're written in by Paizo.

Okay, that's a little closer to the general create specific encounters for each character to shine kind of GMing I like to run/play in. It does sound like there's a problem with other characters having time to shine, or they have it outside of combat, and still feel they should have more importance in combat.


Swarms work just fine as long as they're mixed in with other monsters. In my current game, the two melee PCs tend to shine in almost all combats due to being extremely well-built, so swarms have served admirably in reminding them every now and then why they still keep the scrawny alchemist around. ;D

Liberty's Edge

Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Rynjin, I did some reading on the strike back feat. It says you can ready an attack as a melee action for this. It doesn't mention it will cost a full round action. From my understanding of the text of the feat in the Core Rulebook, he can ready it as standard action and if he doesn't move, he can make an attack, hold and hold the strike back to hit the opponent no matter the reach range. I may be wrong, so I wanted to see if you have further clarification of it from a thread on here.

Do you mean he's attacking a creature and holding his cleave attack? Cause it definitely does not work like that. It takes a standard action to ready an attack, in his case he can attack a creature using reach to attack him where others wouldn't be able to attack because the creature would be out of range. That's all the feat does, allow you to attack someone out of your normal range if they attack you with reach. It's actually a sub-optimal choice most of the time if you can either full attack or use cleave. The only case where it's handy is if you're waiting for an opponent that's large or larger to close ranks with you.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:


Ryjin, on the Strike Back and on some of the conductive channel I didn't. As you know as a GM, we learn a lot about the feats and combos as we go.

He does about in the 20-36 points on his first hit if he doesn't critical. He also has two levels of Bloodrager with his Warpriest. And a Falchion does 1.5 Strength when used with two handed combat. And he is an Aasimar. So, he has flight without wings as a rolled optional class trait (which I witnessed him roll).

That should alleviate a lot of the problem. Strike Back is an interesting Feat, but not an overly powerful one so long as you keep the rules for Readied actions in mind (They take your Standard, meaning stuff like Vital Strike and Cleave and whatnot don't stack).

Likewise, 20-36 points of damage shouldn't be a big deal in Carrion Crown. Justm a quick lookthrough of Ashes at Dawn, powerful enemies have close on 125-150 HP, and a lot of the minions have roughly 50-70.

Since he can only deal that 20-36 damage to one target once per round, he's actually not contributing a whole lot (though Cleave is excellent against minions).

Also keep in mind that Conductive takes double the uses for his Fervor, which he only has probably 10 of per day (6 base +4 for 18 Wis), so 5 daily uses of Conductive.

This also cuts into his more powerful use of Fervor, the Swift action buffing, so every time he does that he cuts his uses of Conductive by one as well.

Rynjin, I did some reading on the strike back feat. It says you can ready an attack as a melee action for this. It doesn't mention it will cost a full round action. From my understanding of the text of the feat in the Core Rulebook, he can ready it as standard action and if he doesn't move, he can make an attack, hold and hold the strike back to hit the opponent no matter the reach range. I may be wrong, so I wanted to see if you have further clarification of it from a thread on here.

Sort of. Readied actions only go off under the triggering scenario.

In this case, he spends his Standard to ready a single attack against anyone that attacks him in melee. You can do this already per the Core rules on Readied actions.

What Strike Back lets him do is use it on creatures outside of his Reach. If a Huge creature attacks from 15 feet away, he can still hit it.

That's all. It limits him to a single attack, if and only if someone attacks him with a melee attack. No other action will trigger his attack in this case, and he can't choose to simply attack whenever he wants either.

Cleave is also out, unless he can take multiple Standard actions per turn, which is something limited to Mythic and some unique class abilities the Warpriest does not possess.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:


Ryjin, on the Strike Back and on some of the conductive channel I didn't. As you know as a GM, we learn a lot about the feats and combos as we go.

He does about in the 20-36 points on his first hit if he doesn't critical. He also has two levels of Bloodrager with his Warpriest. And a Falchion does 1.5 Strength when used with two handed combat. And he is an Aasimar. So, he has flight without wings as a rolled optional class trait (which I witnessed him roll).

That should alleviate a lot of the problem. Strike Back is an interesting Feat, but not an overly powerful one so long as you keep the rules for Readied actions in mind (They take your Standard, meaning stuff like Vital Strike and Cleave and whatnot don't stack).

Likewise, 20-36 points of damage shouldn't be a big deal in Carrion Crown. Justm a quick lookthrough of Ashes at Dawn, powerful enemies have close on 125-150 HP, and a lot of the minions have roughly 50-70.

Since he can only deal that 20-36 damage to one target once per round, he's actually not contributing a whole lot (though Cleave is excellent against minions).

Also keep in mind that Conductive takes double the uses for his Fervor, which he only has probably 10 of per day (6 base +4 for 18 Wis), so 5 daily uses of Conductive.

This also cuts into his more powerful use of Fervor, the Swift action buffing, so every time he does that he cuts his uses of Conductive by one as well.

Rynjin, I did some reading on the strike back feat. It says you can ready an attack as a melee action for this. It doesn't mention it will cost a full round action. From my understanding of the text of the feat in the Core Rulebook, he can ready it as standard action and if he doesn't move, he can make an attack, hold and hold the strike back to hit the opponent no matter the reach range. I may be wrong, so I wanted to see if you have further clarification of it from a thread on here.
Sort of....

Thanks!


Rynjin wrote:
What Strike Back lets him do is use it on creatures outside of his Reach. If a Huge creature attacks from 15 feet away, he can still hit it.

Quite right, though honestly, it seems like something you should be able to do without spending a whole feat. Maybe it's worth a trait?

The Exchange

Feral wrote:
I love how these threads always end up with the claims that Overpowered X isn't overpowered because PFS/modules/Adventure Paths are just undertuned. 'Overpoweredness' is relative and, in the case of Paizo content, this character is overpowered...

It's a fun little fallacy, isn't it?

"Why are you complaining because I have fire resistance 50? If our adventure was on the Sun, I'd be just as dead as everybody else!!"

Back on topic... I know this is going to elicit a little scorn, but I've (almost) never found it worthwhile to try to 'scale up' to compete with an overpowered character. First of all, as GM you have a limited amount of prep time, and every second spent re-balancing gear and feats and pounding out stat-blocks is a second you aren't working on plot, character or the unexpected plot twist that happened last week (or your Plan B for when it happens this week.) Second, if a guy wants to be really good at killing stuff and puts a lot of time and effort into making it happen, he's not really in a good position to complain when stuff he fights dies easily.

Created modules have always been at a disadvantage because of the variance in characters, and at the moment we're in a difficult stretch where Paizo has introduced so many player options that Adventure Path writers (who are, we must remember, on a schedule only slightly less strenuous than we home-adventure-writing GMs) are not in a good position to consider them all.

If alterations must be made, the least strenuous is to include thugs, war dogs, charmed thralls or other relatively low-level creatures cribbed straight from other sourcebooks. Use whatever can be plausibly put on the battlefield and, as other posters have said, let them run interference and provide flanking for the monsters that actually are in the Adventure Path.

Dark Archive

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It's not a fallacy. Being mildly okay at doing HP damage (most of which is actually combining two abilities that he's using incorrectly without likely realizing that he's doing so) is not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. It's not Fire Resist 50 in a campaign set against fire users. It's remembering to bring your sword to a swordfight.

He's level 11. A level 11 Barbarian with the barest minimum of optimization (18 Str at level 1, Power Attack and the Beast Totem line of Rage Powers) could be doing WAY more damage than this Warpriest is capable of, EVEN WITH the erroneous way he was using his feats. Nearly every class is capable of being much more effective, so long as you build them at least half-decently.

This isn't a matter of "overpowered," this is a matter of one guy making a rules mistake that is favorable to him, and everybody else being straight up incapable of contributing meaningfully. If you can't do at least 30 DPR at level 11, you done goofed.

Guess what the average DPR on a bog-standard non-metamagic'd Fireball that hits one target at level 11 is...


Ask the other players if they can try to up their game.


My second alternative is to kill him and make him get a new character.


Seranov wrote:

It's not a fallacy. Being mildly okay at doing HP damage (most of which is actually combining two abilities that he's using incorrectly without likely realizing that he's doing so) is not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. It's not Fire Resist 50 in a campaign set against fire users. It's remembering to bring your sword to a swordfight.

He's level 11. A level 11 Barbarian with the barest minimum of optimization (18 Str at level 1, Power Attack and the Beast Totem line of Rage Powers) could be doing WAY more damage than this Warpriest is capable of, EVEN WITH the erroneous way he was using his feats. Nearly every class is capable of being much more effective, so long as you build them at least half-decently.

This isn't a matter of "overpowered," this is a matter of one guy making a rules mistake that is favorable to him, and everybody else being straight up incapable of contributing meaningfully. If you can't do at least 30 DPR at level 11, you done goofed.

Guess what the average DPR on a bog-standard non-metamagic'd Fireball that hits one target at level 11 is...

I hit 190 as a level eleven elven evo wizard with metamagic.


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...how the @#$% is the Warpriest outdamaging the Cavalier? The cavalier has +11 damage from challenge at a bare minimum and 4/day to burn (again, at minimum). If they go with the standard mounted+lance build they're doing 3d8+3*STR*1.5+33 on a challenge. Heck, throw on power attack for another +27 damage. Minimum 63 (assuming STR 10). More like 91 (STR 18, average damage, and a nonmagical weapon). You see why I say a mounted charger should be getting 100 a hit.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure the powergamer would be beating them with an NPC class at this point. Wouldn't have the survivability or options as a Warrior but they'd probably still be doing more damage than the rest of the party. When a player can beat the party with an NPC (not adept) that's a problem with the party, not the player. Now it may be a problem of game expectations but if you're playing an adventure path I think combat is expected.


The way my DM would handle this would be to have the enemies gun way harder for the stronger character. Let's say you've got an enemy with three natural attacks. When you attack the war priest, you go full attack on him, but if you attack your comic relief guy, just hit him with one attack. Or if your players wind up scattered and fighting different enemies 1v1 or 2v2, send any extra guys you have over to fight the war priest. It'll probably work out fine since he wants to fight and everyone else wants to do whatever people who build underpowered characters see as their end goal.


Also, as everyone else has already said, 20-30 dmg per target on a cleave really isn't all that great. That's like kicking every enemy standing immediately next to you in the shin. If your son wants to hack-n-slash, tell him to look at the BARBARIAN AM SMASH guide on here. Also, pick up a furious falchion. That could really help balance things out in any future games.


Well I'd suggest when taking on the boss, adding obstacles that must be overcome before you you can start dealing damage, and you should probably gear the obstacles towards the other members of the party. particularly the ones who rarely get a chance to shine in combat like the rogue for example.

perhaps when fighting a giant turtle monster, you can't deal any damage to him until you break the shell, maybe you have to take out the stalagtites first to crush the monsters shell before the rest can do damage. so this would be something that the range specialists and spell slingers would have to do.

also, maybe you're fighting a flying creature so this would be another place for the ranged members of the party to shine. having to take out the wings before they become grounded and the war priest gets his chance.

or maybe you can have a situation which the acrobats in your party are the heroes of the day. maybe in the big ballroom ambush the best way to take out the thugs is to drop a chandelier on them and only the rouge is dexy enough to make the jump to the ledge and cut the rope.

and perhaps you can overwhelm the party with grunts, and have to make use of the dexier members to breakthrough and nab the mcguffin that would instantly end the battle, or maybe hit the switch that would open the gate and let the Cavalry in or hit the switch that'll release the trap door that'll flood the room with light and kill all the vampires.

just a few ideas.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lincoln Hills wrote:
Feral wrote:
I love how these threads always end up with the claims that Overpowered X isn't overpowered because PFS/modules/Adventure Paths are just undertuned. 'Overpoweredness' is relative and, in the case of Paizo content, this character is overpowered...

It's a fun little fallacy, isn't it?

"Why are you complaining because I have fire resistance 50? If our adventure was on the Sun, I'd be just as dead as everybody else!!"

Back on topic... I know this is going to elicit a little scorn, but I've (almost) never found it worthwhile to try to 'scale up' to compete with an overpowered character. First of all, as GM you have a limited amount of prep time, and every second spent re-balancing gear and feats and pounding out stat-blocks is a second you aren't working on plot, character or the unexpected plot twist that happened last week (or your Plan B for when it happens this week.) Second, if a guy wants to be really good at killing stuff and puts a lot of time and effort into making it happen, he's not really in a good position to complain when stuff he fights dies easily.

Created modules have always been at a disadvantage because of the variance in characters, and at the moment we're in a difficult stretch where Paizo has introduced so many player options that Adventure Path writers (who are, we must remember, on a schedule only slightly less strenuous than we home-adventure-writing GMs) are not in a good position to consider them all.

If alterations must be made, the least strenuous is to include thugs, war dogs, charmed thralls or other relatively low-level creatures cribbed straight from other sourcebooks. Use whatever can be plausibly put on the battlefield and, as other posters have said, let them run interference and provide flanking for the monsters that actually are in the Adventure Path.

Lincoln, you are saying what I say to myself at times as a GM. Even my fiancé complains at the amount of extra time I spend trying to kodify encounters to offset the power of his warpriest.

The Exchange

The easiest way is to just add the Advanced Template to everything to raise the CR by 1. Add 2 Natural Armor and 4 to every ability score. Easy and you don't really have to think of anything new.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Seranov wrote:

It's not a fallacy. Being mildly okay at doing HP damage (most of which is actually combining two abilities that he's using incorrectly without likely realizing that he's doing so) is not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. It's not Fire Resist 50 in a campaign set against fire users. It's remembering to bring your sword to a swordfight.

He's level 11. A level 11 Barbarian with the barest minimum of optimization (18 Str at level 1, Power Attack and the Beast Totem line of Rage Powers) could be doing WAY more damage than this Warpriest is capable of, EVEN WITH the erroneous way he was using his feats. Nearly every class is capable of being much more effective, so long as you build them at least half-decently.

This isn't a matter of "overpowered," this is a matter of one guy making a rules mistake that is favorable to him, and everybody else being straight up incapable of contributing meaningfully. If you can't do at least 30 DPR at level 11, you done goofed.

Guess what the average DPR on a bog-standard non-metamagic'd Fireball that hits one target at level 11 is...

.

They aren't necessarily incapable of contributing. The rogue is a ranged flanking damaged. His abilities to spot and disarm traps is great. The player playing the Pharasmin priest focused more on being a party healer and diplomacy machine than a battler. The cavalier is a battler, but is being played by my don who is 16. Most 16 year olds aren't long attention spanned in gaming and often have the "ugh me kill it and then shut back down" demeanor. The Drow Rogue has a strong AC (32) and is a flanking damager. The Arcanist is a recently converted system player (D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder).

Your input is good, but as I do on here, I tend not to make blanket statements because often, not being in the play environment, it's silly to make blanket statements of in capability. All are overall strong at roleplay.

Also, the warpriest is designed by this play to be a battling machine. I know I have missed some of the feats he is using between his Bloodrager 2/warpriest 8. He took the Bloodrager for the refined rage and for the pluses to BAB to get some more of the harder fighter feats.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
#Summoner4life wrote:
My second alternative is to kill him and make him get a new character.

I could. He would just do another warpriest. In another side campaign, he rolled a Oracle and tailored him to be a warrior type Oracle. He joked he should have done a warpriest and missed the toughness. There was even the joke of "really we have to start at first level? I like starting at 3rd level more."

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Bob Bob Bob wrote:

...how the @#$% is the Warpriest outdamaging the Cavalier? The cavalier has +11 damage from challenge at a bare minimum and 4/day to burn (again, at minimum). If they go with the standard mounted+lance build they're doing 3d8+3*STR*1.5+33 on a challenge. Heck, throw on power attack for another +27 damage. Minimum 63 (assuming STR 10). More like 91 (STR 18, average damage, and a nonmagical weapon). You see why I say a mounted charger should be getting 100 a hit.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure the powergamer would be beating them with an NPC class at this point. Wouldn't have the survivability or options as a Warrior but they'd probably still be doing more damage than the rest of the party. When a player can beat the party with an NPC (not adept) that's a problem with the party, not the player. Now it may be a problem of game expectations but if you're playing an adventure path I think combat is expected.

Breathe Bob. The Cavalier is being played by a 16 year old who is just learning the game. I love the advice from all of you, but assumptions get made and then the well damn, you guys must be idiots. I have been game mastering Pathfinder for 19 months. I don't have every feat memorized and every rule 100 percent down. And I played D&D 3.5 before Pathfinder for 15 years. It took me 7 to feel strong as a GM.

I love the banter in the threads, but sometimes the aloofness comes out. Like it is here. Remember, everyone on here isn't an expert.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Froth Maw wrote:
The way my DM would handle this would be to have the enemies gun way harder for the stronger character. Let's say you've got an enemy with three natural attacks. When you attack the war priest, you go full attack on him, but if you attack your comic relief guy, just hit him with one attack. Or if your players wind up scattered and fighting different enemies 1v1 or 2v2, send any extra guys you have over to fight the war priest. It'll probably work out fine since he wants to fight and everyone else wants to do whatever people who build underpowered characters see as their end goal.

I like this. Agreed. If someone wants to act like Superman, he is going to draw the enemy attacks more than the rogues and other spell casters (unless they cast a spell that draws attention). Good advice:) thanks.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Froth Maw wrote:
Also, as everyone else has already said, 20-30 dmg per target on a cleave really isn't all that great. That's like kicking every enemy standing immediately next to you in the shin. If your son wants to hack-n-slash, tell him to look at the BARBARIAN AM SMASH guide on here. Also, pick up a furious falchion. That could really help balance things out in any future games.

The problem is that he normally critical hits and confirms once every other round. And we use the critical deck. So, this amplifies the fun and his hits. He gets normally multiple attacks per round from his level. Again, not devastating, but combining everything lets battles God quicker. And, from what I reviewed, he isn't policing his loss in AC from rage and some of the feats.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Leonhart Steelmane wrote:

Well I'd suggest when taking on the boss, adding obstacles that must be overcome before you you can start dealing damage, and you should probably gear the obstacles towards the other members of the party. particularly the ones who rarely get a chance to shine in combat like the rogue for example.

perhaps when fighting a giant turtle monster, you can't deal any damage to him until you break the shell, maybe you have to take out the stalagtites first to crush the monsters shell before the rest can do damage. so this would be something that the range specialists and spell slingers would have to do.

also, maybe you're fighting a flying creature so this would be another place for the ranged members of the party to shine. having to take out the wings before they become grounded and the war priest gets his chance.

or maybe you can have a situation which the acrobats in your party are the heroes of the day. maybe in the big ballroom ambush the best way to take out the thugs is to drop a chandelier on them and only the rouge is dexy enough to make the jump to the ledge and cut the rope.

and perhaps you can overwhelm the party with grunts, and have to make use of the dexier members to breakthrough and nab the mcguffin that would instantly end the battle, or maybe hit the switch that would open the gate and let the Cavalry in or hit the switch that'll release the trap door that'll flood the room with light and kill all the vampires.

just a few ideas.

I like these ideas. I am going to add swarms, traps, obstacles and other damaging uniques to start wearing him down more to balancing things when combat occurs.

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ragoz wrote:
The easiest way is to just add the Advanced Template to everything to raise the CR by 1. Add 2 Natural Armor and 4 to every ability score. Easy and you don't really have to think of anything new.

I was leaning that way. Adjusting the AC of the creatures facing him will make his battles tougher. Also, hitting him with the ranged enemy casters will wear him down some and make him more cautious I hope.


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Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Froth Maw wrote:
The way my DM would handle this would be to have the enemies gun way harder for the stronger character. Let's say you've got an enemy with three natural attacks. When you attack the war priest, you go full attack on him, but if you attack your comic relief guy, just hit him with one attack. Or if your players wind up scattered and fighting different enemies 1v1 or 2v2, send any extra guys you have over to fight the war priest. It'll probably work out fine since he wants to fight and everyone else wants to do whatever people who build underpowered characters see as their end goal.
I like this. Agreed. If someone wants to act like Superman, he is going to draw the enemy attacks more than the rogues and other spell casters (unless they cast a spell that draws attention). Good advice:) thanks.

I strongly disagree. That's passive-aggressive GMing. Rather than discussing the matter with the player, you just have the NPC's use better tactics against his character than against other characters.

I almost replied with something about that when someone said an ultimatum was the worst thing a GM can do. I'd much rather be issued an ultimatum than have the GM intentionally discriminate against my character.

Given the damage levels mentioned, if the player in question is trying to power-game, he isn't even power-gaming that effectively.

I dislike extreme minmaxing power gaming, and as a GM would call someone out on that, but even if this player is trying to do that, he's not doing the kind of damage that one can do if it's done well.

Outside of true minmaxing (which is a bad thing IMO), I'm bothered by a trend on the boards that players should be told, "You're playing too well! Stop!" But...being told that is less bad than having the GM discriminate against your character.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
The easiest way is to just add the Advanced Template to everything to raise the CR by 1. Add 2 Natural Armor and 4 to every ability score. Easy and you don't really have to think of anything new.
I was leaning that way. Adjusting the AC of the creatures facing him will make his battles tougher. Also, hitting him with the ranged enemy casters will wear him down some and make him more cautious I hope.

Why would the enemy casters target him specifically, unless they've faced the party before? He won't appear more dangerous than the other characters.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Seranov wrote:

Yeah, what? 30ish damage a round at level 11 is hardly what I'd call overpowering. Especially since he's splitting his attacks between various targets and/or making only one attack a round vs. something outside his reach.

Exactly what is the rest of your group doing that this guy is supposedly making them look bad? More and more it sounds less like he's absurdly strong and just that everyone else is just really, really poorly built.

Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.

You may want to re-read the rules for Improved Critical and Keen, they explicitly don't stack...


Atragon wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Seranov wrote:

Yeah, what? 30ish damage a round at level 11 is hardly what I'd call overpowering. Especially since he's splitting his attacks between various targets and/or making only one attack a round vs. something outside his reach.

Exactly what is the rest of your group doing that this guy is supposedly making them look bad? More and more it sounds less like he's absurdly strong and just that everyone else is just really, really poorly built.

Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.
You may want to re-read the rules for Improved Critical and Keen, they explicitly don't stack...

The OP said he's just using 15-20, so he isn't stacking them-- another way that if he's trying to minmax he really isn't doing it well. The Keen property would be much better spent elsewhere since he has Improved Critical (or instead, Improved Critical isn't the best feat if his weapon is Keen)....


I am not sure what you have is a Real problem. He is doing lots of damage and doing it in melee. If you stop him using the feats and stuff, that he appear to have misundestood, in a wrong Way he wont be any better of than most others. How long Does a typical figth take? If some of your players feel there characters are left behind post there build and we Can pehaps help:) how Does ranged flanking work?
Sorry for the rambling, but IMOP someone that kill stuff fast is not really a problem. A guy that teleport the party to Mount doom the second they hit level 9 is.

The Exchange

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I agree at this point there isn't a real issue here. Just adjust the AP for 6 people by using advanced template, make sure everyone follows the rules, and have a good time since you are almost done the AP.


Would he accept an artificial handicap like playing on a lower level than the others? I mean, he could still shine (especially relative to level), and it would be interesting for him to get back to full power.

Possible fluff would be an ancient vampire applying some negative levels to him in an epic battle, then escaping manically laughing. Don't hesitate to use a CR 25 vampire, after all it's not about killing him. With negative levels I mean permanent ones which can't be removed by usual priests (including him). His god can fix it, but he won't until the hero has proven himself in a number of challenges (some of them should be quest and roleplay related). Maybe the vampire will try to toy with him (give the PC some chance for revenge by killing vampire spawn etc.), maybe the PC's god will remove negative levels one by one, maybe some campaign NPC can help a bit.

While negative levels are a burden, it feels REALLY rewarding to shine in combat DESPITE them.

I'd talk with him - not revealing the details, but saying that I would put a handicap on him which he can overcome and finally be rewarded for.

Shadow Lodge

Flynn Greywalker wrote:


They aren't necessarily incapable of contributing. The rogue is a ranged flanking damaged. His abilities to spot and disarm traps is great. The player playing the Pharasmin priest focused more on being a party healer and diplomacy machine than a battler. The cavalier is a battler, but is being played by my don who is 16. Most 16 year olds aren't long attention spanned in gaming and often have the "ugh me kill it and then shut back down" demeanor. The Drow Rogue has a strong AC (32) and is a flanking damager. The Arcanist is a recently converted system player (D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder)...

OK, so you listed your party. You have:

a ranged rogue-this is a low damage combination even if well optimized.
a healer focused character- not built to do damage.
A cavalier- by a new player
A rogue who focused on defense
an arcane caster- didn't say much about him so, unknown.

And one warpriest who built for melee damage. So, um, yeah. Sounds like you have one guy of 6 who focused on offensive power and he unsurprisingly does more damage than anyone else. Hmm, that may have sounded kind of snarky, don't mean to be. I would point out to my players in this situation that only one built for damage. Cause it seems like they don't realize this.

Lets look at some level 11 stuff:
According to the bestiary monster statistics by CR, a CR 11 has 145HP, AC 25, +19 to hit, and does an average of 50 damage if all it's attacks hit.
The level 11 barbarian from the NPC codex:
142HP, AC 17, +19 to hit, average damage if all hit 63.
Kaitlyn, my level 11 pfs dragon disciple:
168HP, AC 23, +23 to hit, average damage if all hit 154.
Some pregens:
Harsk at level 12:
106HP, AC 26, +16 to hit, average damage if all hit 25
Valeros at level 12:
130HP, AC 29, +21 to hit, average damage if all hit 75.

I would suggest taking a look at everyone's character sheets. If 5 of them are playing Harsk and one of them is playing Valeros, then your issue isn't that one is overoptimized, but rather that everyone else is playing Harsk. If one of them is playing Kaitlyn, then you can ask them to tone it down a little (note that Kaitlyn has played with numerous other pathfinders who out damage her by 50% or more, she's by no means the most optimized).

OK this is getting really long but to end I'll emphasize what others have touched on: Paizo published APs are designed for 4 players with a 15 point buy. When you play with 6 players at a 20PB, surprise! It's really easy.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Oly wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
The easiest way is to just add the Advanced Template to everything to raise the CR by 1. Add 2 Natural Armor and 4 to every ability score. Easy and you don't really have to think of anything new.
I was leaning that way. Adjusting the AC of the creatures facing him will make his battles tougher. Also, hitting him with the ranged enemy casters will wear him down some and make him more cautious I hope.
Why would the enemy casters target him specifically, unless they've faced the party before? He won't appear more dangerous than the other characters.

I agree Oly.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Seranov wrote:

Yeah, what? 30ish damage a round at level 11 is hardly what I'd call overpowering. Especially since he's splitting his attacks between various targets and/or making only one attack a round vs. something outside his reach.

Exactly what is the rest of your group doing that this guy is supposedly making them look bad? More and more it sounds less like he's absurdly strong and just that everyone else is just really, really poorly built.

Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.

I thought Keen and Improved Critical didn't stack


That's why I said the hack-slasher needs to be asking the powergamer for help. If one of the players is better at building damage dealers, maybe ask that player for help building a damage dealer. The full numbers I listed are for a very specific set of feats and specific conditions. Even without a mounted charge though the cavalier should have challenge (for +11 damage) and power attack (for +6 or +9). More than enough to pull even or surpass the warpriest. Additionally, all the feats for the mounted charge are core and fairly standard for a mounted charge build so this isn't something odd or esoteric. Mounted Combat, Ride-by-attack, Spirited Charge. Can get double damage with any melee weapon and triple damage with a lance. No restrictions except a single rank in Ride so you can grab the feats as soon as you have feats to spare.

Also, anything that wears down the powergamer will also do the same to the rest of the party unless it's specifically targeted to just him (which wouldn't make sense). Swarms probably hit the rogues worse than the powergamer. Traps in combat might be great for the rogues but the cavalier is going to have no fun. Out of combat they don't actually wear anyone down unless the rogue screws up, and the rogue might not like traps appearing that they can't see/disarm, especially if they built for that. And if they can see and disarm them, then they're not a threat and don't wear anyone down.


SheepishEidolon wrote:

Would he accept an artificial handicap like playing on a lower level than the others? I mean, he could still shine (especially relative to level), and it would be interesting for him to get back to full power.

Possible fluff would be an ancient vampire applying some negative levels to him in an epic battle, then escaping manically laughing. Don't hesitate to use a CR 25 vampire, after all it's not about killing him. With negative levels I mean permanent ones which can't be removed by usual priests (including him). His god can fix it, but he won't until the hero has proven himself in a number of challenges (some of them should be quest and roleplay related). Maybe the vampire will try to toy with him (give the PC some chance for revenge by killing vampire spawn etc.), maybe the PC's god will remove negative levels one by one, maybe some campaign NPC can help a bit.

While negative levels are a burden, it feels REALLY rewarding to shine in combat DESPITE them.

I'd talk with him - not revealing the details, but saying that I would put a handicap on him which he can overcome and finally be rewarded for.

I think that very very few players would enjoy this as a solution. Warpriests are good at melee. I don't think it's a stretch for opponents to do what they'd do against any other armored monster; target reflex saves and make him move around the bf (extra targets and more movement is always sound advice for any combatant).


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Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Also, the warpriest is designed by this play to be a battling machine. I know I have missed some of the feats he is using between his Bloodrager 2/warpriest 8. He took the Bloodrager for the refined rage and for the pluses to BAB to get some more of the harder fighter feats.

Bloodrager 2/warpriest 8 has a BAB of 8. The last bonus feat of the warpriest was at level 6, when the effective bab was considered as 8 also. StrikeBack requires BAB 11. This is not a legal feat yet.

At Bloodrager 2/warpriest 9, the warpriest gets another bonus feat that allows effective BAB=CL, and finally qualifying for the feat.

Oly wrote:
Why would the enemy casters target him specifically, unless they've faced the party before? He won't appear more dangerous than the other characters.

At levels >= 10, you are considered legends. Common people know who you all are. While the bad guys never have encountered the party before, they have common knowledge to recognize them. The common stories say the warpriest does the most damage, and so they will target him early.

/cevah


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There are two issues:
* Incorrect use of some feats. --> can be fixed easily if you speak about it in a civilised manner. Nothink like this passive-agressive Ultimatum-nonsense. Its a surefire way to alienate a player and start bad feelings in your group. Correct the rules mistakes and much of this problem should go away.

* Only one dude is competent (not great, just competent!) at dealing damage, while the others have a low damage output. this makes him stand out in your group. To me the issue with the Warpriest remind me of a german proverb: "In a band of blind men, the one eyed one is king."
Dont punish a player for playing a medium damage-dealer in a group of low damage dealers. Go in a pure neutral system perspective and compare his damage potential with generic melee-focused characters like the previous poster "gnoams" did.

--> get rid of the wrongly applied rules and the difference is combat potential should be in a normal range.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blackvial wrote:
Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Seranov wrote:

Yeah, what? 30ish damage a round at level 11 is hardly what I'd call overpowering. Especially since he's splitting his attacks between various targets and/or making only one attack a round vs. something outside his reach.

Exactly what is the rest of your group doing that this guy is supposedly making them look bad? More and more it sounds less like he's absurdly strong and just that everyone else is just really, really poorly built.

Possibly. He critical hits a lot with his improved critical and keen falchion.
I thought Keen and Improved Critical didn't stack

They don't. But if the player is only using a 15-20 range, he isn't stacking them... still the falchion is a terribly unbalanced weapon, the player knew EXACTLY what he was going for.


Falchion is unbalanced? That's news to me. Is the Scimitar also unbalanced? Because the Falchion is just a larger size scimitar you need two hands to wield. Did you mean Falcata the 1d8 19-20/x3 weapon? Maybe Nodachi since it's a Falchion with a higher max damage, more damage types, and more features? Is every 18-20 weapon unbalanced?


Ultimatums aren't really "passive" aggressive. Pretty sure we just call those aggressive. Passivity requires a certain level of beating-around-the-bushness.

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