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I think the issue is that we're arguing two different points, as your post illustrated to me. You are bringing up audits and people doing the wrong thing. I'm trying to find a way for those of us who are doing the right thing and have been doing so to be less encumbered and not encouraged to join the ranks of those who engage in "sloppy play". At this point it feels like the more I support my FLGS by purchasing Paizo products the more penalized I am, and the only obvious solution that doesn't involve me needing to buy books twice and also buy a tablet just for gaming is just to stop buying Paizo product (which I would hope isn't the solution that they are hoping we will come to). I've not actually purchased Unchained for this reason (the options aren't worth the added mass / weight / headache of juggling, especially as the only thing the book accomplished was forcing me to respec my few low level summoners and be glad I hadn't purchased Blood of the Elements).
I'll continue to hope that Paizo / PFS finds a way to encourage those of us who prefer dead tree solutions to electronic ones a way to use those resources without telling us that we have to buy things twice or just stop buying their product in general.
At this point any arguments I would make would just reiterate what I've already said, so I'm bowing out for a bit. Will check the thread again in a few weeks to see if anything of substance arises.
Thanks for trying, Gary. Luck to us both that you can get something workable and acceptable together.
-TimD
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Some things I think:
I wish all books came with a pdf code in the stores. When I started playing PFS and was told of the "bring all materials" requirement, using books was a non-starter. I like to keep my options open as to what character I'm playing that day to facilitate a balanced group, and trucking 50 pounds of books is not a reasonable thing to do.
Regarding the requirement of owning a tablet to use pdfs: It's 2015. A huge amount of people own smartphones. PDFs can live on smartphones. I'm not sure how this "gotta own a tablet too" idea got propagated. For many, pdfs on a phone is a simple solution. No, it's not for everyone and you can't assume ownership of a smartphone, but it's a ubiquitous device. No smartphone? I bet if you asked your friend who goes to the same gameday as you if he'd let you put your pdfs on his phone he'd agree. He's a nice guy.
Regarding sign off sheets: I'm not in favor of giving VO's more work to do (they do enough). Cheaters will still find ways to cheat. However, the benefits of this idea *may* outweigh the down sides. There needs to be some alternative and some way to make buying the books rather than the PDFs not a laughable idea for a pfs player.
Regarding character audits: In over a year of PFS, I haven't seen a full character audit done to verify resources. I have seen spot checks of "do you own the source for that" when it comes up during a game.
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Manager - Archangel Games
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Cut and paste?
No, not that kind. I mean grab some scissors and paste. You can make those hardcover downloads fit on one page!
You know, I think this is a fantastic solution for those that don't want to buy pdfs, and don't want to carry around all their books. Cut out the pages they use from their hardcovers...
(Even I'm not sure if I'm joking or not...)
YOU ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED IN MY STORE WITH SCISSORS EVER!!!!!!!!!! and if I see you coming near my books I will scream and cry lol
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I didn't sign up to be a member of the PFS Police, but after taking the time to get a better understanding of it myself- I am much more sympathetic to Paizo's policy. This experience helped me dramatically change my opinion on the ownership of materials in regards to PFS play. When I think of the hundreds of dollars I have invested in PFS materials, the apathy displayed towards Paizo by some players was rather sobering. As of now, I support the status quo- bring it if you own it- otherwise you don't get to use it.
My proposal would do nothing about players who don't want to own the resources but it should make the GMs life a little easier.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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A proposal that involves having the players list their additional resources before the game, would make the GM's job considerably easier in this regard.
My proposal would help in this area. To use the Resource Tracking Sheet, a player must have photocopies of the pages necessary to run their character if they don't have the book with them. So this would make it easier to audit and also show ownership.
Or this is my goal at least.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Rather than arguing about the finer points of arguing, I will just suggest that data trumps theory, and we should all try what Solcalhammer did to gather it.A system that solves an issue for a few vocal folks on the message boards, but which opens up abuse to the MUCH larger group who don't, is counterproductive. Mike said in his retirement post that there are 60,000 PFS players; this thread has about 2 dozen posters, who seem split on whether this is a real problem or not. Until we see whether the rst of the PFS population has a real problem with the status quo, there is no reason to even consider a change.
Right now, I don't have the problem of having the resources. I have only have 2 books, 1 PDF of a book, and a couple of smaller resources. This can all be carried very easy in my backpack.
I see my proposal as an alternative, not a replacement to the current rule.
I do not want to add to a problem or create a new one. If my proposal would that than I would not want it.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Some things I think:
Regarding sign off sheets: I'm not in favor of giving VO's more work to do (they do enough). Cheaters will still find ways to cheat. However, the benefits of this idea *may* outweigh the down sides. There needs to be some alternative and some way to make buying the books rather than the PDFs not a laughable idea for a pfs player.
Quadstriker,
I find myself agreeing with you for the most part. Cheaters will find ways to cheat. The only real way to combat them is to expose them as often as possible. People will learn who they are and will not welcome them to play.
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Cheaters are gonna cheat, but the sign-off rule appears way too easy to exploit. I really don't want to make it too easy for them.
The issue with having people sign off on their ownership of physical books is someone could just borrow someone's book, get it signed off, then return the book after photocopying the pages they need.
Or, if they still own the book, they could sell the book to someone else but keep claiming they own one.
The fact that PDF's are non-transferable, and are watermarked with the buyer's name makes it a little more difficult to fake, but nothing is impossible. Plus you don't need to have an tablet or smartphone, just a way to print out the pertinent pages.
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Disclaimer: I know nothing about book publishing.
Second Disclaimer: This idea wouldn't help with preexisting books.
Just trying to get some new ideas out there, even if this one isn't totally practical, it might spark an idea for someone else.
Is it possible to have a serial number printed on each page of a physical book? The serial number could be registered to your paizo account when you purchase the book. That way, a photocopy of a book page would have a serial number on it, and that serial number would be linked to a screenshotted paizo account page. Proof of ownership of the book and rules documentation covered without breaking your back.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Cheaters are gonna cheat, but the sign-off rule appears way too easy to exploit. I really don't want to make it too easy for them.
The issue with having people sign off on their ownership of physical books is someone could just borrow someone's book, get it signed off, then return the book after photocopying the pages they need.
Or, if they still own the book, they could sell the book to someone else but keep claiming they own one.
The fact that PDF's are non-transferable, and are watermarked with the buyer's name makes it a little more difficult to fake, but nothing is impossible. Plus you don't need to have an tablet or smartphone, just a way to print out the pertinent pages.
Terek,
You do bring up valid points but I believe my proposal addresses them.
Several posters have brought up the concept that a sign-off rule can be exploited. This can also be done with chronicles right now. How does a GM know that the chronicles a player presents is signed by a valid GM? I don't know. I am not a GM. But since a number is required, my guess is that if a GM has a concern they can go to the Paizo website an lookup a GM number. I believe there is a listing of VOs on the website as well.
When the Resource Tracking Sheet is being reviewed by a VO or high star GM, the player has to show the physical book. In order for it to be valid, the player has to sign the inside cover. This should stop the who borrowing problem. And with the requirement that a player validate the Resource Tracking Sheet on a regular basis it should address the possible problem of a player getting a booking long enough to get a sheet signed.
Hopefully this will better focus what my proposal is trying to do.
Thank you for adding to the conversation.
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Gary
I have to say I admire your tenacity, even though I disagree with the need for this plan.
And with Socalwarhammers post, I'm feeling the need to do book audits at our local game nights. Think Nefreet and I should have a local chat about that, and include our VC.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Gary
I have to say I admire your tenacity, even though I disagree with the need for this plan.
And with Socalwarhammers post, I'm feeling the need to do book audits at our local game nights. Think Nefreet and I should have a local chat about that, and include our VC.
Michael,
Thank you. If more audits are done it would likely help to get players to actually buy the books who don't have them now. Of course, it will cause others to just stop playing so it is a two edged sword.
It's been already brought up each year the weight increase is about 12lbs.Like 73% of statistics that was made up on the spot.Most gamers are going to carry more than 12 lbs and its a fact that books are increasing. I know I do in bringing just what I need. Some players are going to have issue with that and not through any fault of their own.
I'm still wrapping my head around we're supposed to be discriminating against people with physical handicaps from playing the game.
No one is being discriminated against. As a matter of fact, my HQs at both PaizoCon and Gen Con do everything we can to accommodate physical handicaps by finding space on aisles or table ends or closer to the screen or whatever to make it easy as possible for them to participate. I have a cousin who is handicap and am very cognizant about being inclusive as possible.
If someone wants to use 19 books to make a character, they always have the option of purchasing PDFs and placing them on a tablet that weighs 2-3 pounds (or subscribing and receiving free copies of PDFs). People can also choose to not use more than 2-4 books to create a character. It's always a choice and there ar options. Please stop advising that we discrimate. That is the fatherest thing from the truth.
I understand that you aren't making a decision to be this way, but your post (and by extension, your position) is ableist. Accessibility is a real issue and the answer shouldn't be, "use less or shop differently." Right now those are the options you have on the table.
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Gary
I have to say I admire your tenacity, even though I disagree with the need for this plan.
And with Socalwarhammers post, I'm feeling the need to do book audits at our local game nights. Think Nefreet and I should have a local chat about that, and include our VC.
Michael- I wish you better luck with it than I had. Until a formal policy is adopted, I think the fallout from players (some, not all) might not be worth it in the end. And by official, I mean from Paizo with criteria on what,were and when.
In the way of follow-up, I have already received a couple of phone calls asking me if I 'plan' on doing a book audit again, or every time I GM, and if so to let players know ahead of time to avoid conflict(s). In addition- a few players are expressing a desire for 'the hard-ass guy' to GM less often if he (me) is going to 'be that way' regarding source materials.
This is my issue and I own it, I only bring it up so you are informed in regards to possible issues that may come your way.
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I understand that you aren't making a decision to be this way, but your post (and by extension, your position) is ableist. Accessibility is a real issue and the answer shouldn't be, "use less or shop differently." Right now those are the options you have on the table.It's been already brought up each year the weight increase is about 12lbs.Like 73% of statistics that was made up on the spot.Most gamers are going to carry more than 12 lbs and its a fact that books are increasing. I know I do in bringing just what I need. Some players are going to have issue with that and not through any fault of their own.
I'm still wrapping my head around we're supposed to be discriminating against people with physical handicaps from playing the game.
No one is being discriminated against. As a matter of fact, my HQs at both PaizoCon and Gen Con do everything we can to accommodate physical handicaps by finding space on aisles or table ends or closer to the screen or whatever to make it easy as possible for them to participate. I have a cousin who is handicap and am very cognizant about being inclusive as possible.
If someone wants to use 19 books to make a character, they always have the option of purchasing PDFs and placing them on a tablet that weighs 2-3 pounds (or subscribing and receiving free copies of PDFs). People can also choose to not use more than 2-4 books to create a character. It's always a choice and there ar options. Please stop advising that we discrimate. That is the fatherest thing from the truth.
And I agree with you for those that have issues with accessibility. I'm less than sure that is the case for many others, however. It seems more of not wanting to have to carry the books, or perhaps not have to show ownership at all? Regardless, it's a choice as Michael remarked. People playing war games don't get to just leave the armies at home or not paint them (last I checked.) They are choosing to cart all the around. If you are choosing to use 19 books, you made that choice and you have to deal with it in some way.
Would it be nice if people were trustworthy enough for the other means? Sure. But as we're seeing in just the last few pages people are trying to get around things or otherwise don't want to be hassled. With that in mind, I'd be less inclined for a solution that let's them off the hook.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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In the way of follow-up, I have already received a couple of phone calls asking me if I 'plan' on doing a book audit again, or every time I GM, and if so to let players know ahead of time to avoid conflict(s). In addition- a few players are expressing a desire for 'the hard-ass guy' to GM less often if he (me) is going to 'be that way' regarding source materials.
This is my issue and I own it, I only bring it up so you are informed in regards to possible issues that may come your way.
I hope your VOs are backing you up.
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And I agree with you for those that have issues with accessibility. I'm less than sure that is the case for many others, however. It seems more of not wanting to have to carry the books, or perhaps not have to show ownership at all?
Books + clothes and sundries.
Get on car. Go to train.
Go from train to other train.
Walk from train to convention.
Pick up books trying to find the right table
repeat that last step a few times
Walk from convention to train
Walk quickly! from train to other train. ow . ow. ow.
The extra weight adds up. Even with some of the covers on the hardbacks being replaced with ductape.
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After a while, it would just become worthless.This is only true until the player would need to show ownership again. My proposal would require the Resource Tracking Sheet to be updated on a regular basis. I suggest annually.
If they are going to trade "signing services" once, what prevents them from just doing it again?
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe
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This is only true until the player would need to show ownership again. My proposal would require the Resource Tracking Sheet to be updated on a regular basis. I suggest annually.After a while, it would just become worthless.
Sorry, but my "I am not really a fan of that idea" just turned into a "I hate it".
Doing all the Resouce Tracking Sheet once is a lot of work, but then it is done. Having to do that every year is alot of work you just dumped on people -in other words me.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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If they are going to trade "signing services" once, what prevents them from just doing it again?After a while, it would just become worthless.This is only true until the player would need to show ownership again. My proposal would require the Resource Tracking Sheet to be updated on a regular basis. I suggest annually.
Honestly nothing. Cheaters are going to cheat. But for those players that are following the rules this would make it easier for them. I believe that most players are honest. Naive maybe.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Sorry, but my "I am not really a fan of that idea" just turned into a "I hate it".
Doing all the Resouce Tracking Sheet once is a lot of work, but then it is done. Having to do that every year is alot of work you just dumped on people -in other words me.
I am sorry that you feel this way. I can understand the extra work. This is why my proposal includes high star GMs as well. And most of the work is on the player. I am not suggesting that a VO prepare the sheet.
That you for giving a VO viewpoint to the discussion.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I made a tracking sheet per character in order to reference what is used, where it comes from (bk&page) and if its legal. I used a copy of the addn resources document and highlighted it.
But push come to shove you would need to have the book with you. My proposal would allow you not too have the book. Also what you are doing now is what part 3 requires of the player.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just a question, Gary: what do you think should happen if, two hours into a game, the local WIFI drops and the Hunter's player can no longer access the SRD on-line?
Right now, that can happen, if a player comes to the table with only PDFs (no print-offs) and the laptop loses power. Under those circumstances, the player no longer has access to the character, so I give him his Chronicle sheet (with whatever rewards the party has earned) and send him on his way. But your proposal makes the player much more dependent on technology.
It makes it much more likely that the GM will have to handle the player's laptop / tablet / phone. That strikes me as a substantial downside.
And I agree with you for those that have issues with accessibility. I'm less than sure that is the case for many others, however. It seems more of not wanting to have to carry the books, or perhaps not have to show ownership at all?Books + clothes and sundries.
Get on car. Go to train.
Go from train to other train.
Walk from train to convention.
Pick up books trying to find the right table
repeat that last step a few times
Walk from convention to train
Walk quickly! from train to other train. ow . ow. ow.
The extra weight adds up. Even with some of the covers on the hardbacks being replaced with ductape.
I can commiserate with that although I haven't experienced it. But my experiences are colored by hiking with 40 or so pounds so a few books aren't as much a bother to me.
Has anyone investigated how people who have to cart Warhammer or whatever armies around deal with the same travel issues? I've seen many with rolling cases not unlike rolling suitcases or traveling salesmen boxes that seem to work.
I do say that I'd be in favor of something to cut down weight for things like needing Ultimate Equipment or the APG or whatever for one consumable. Things of that nature, things that are fairly common but just in one of the newer books should IMO be OKed without having to have the hardback, especially if they are on a website or a printout that anyone has. That's a quick check and even something that could be compiled for a GM/player worksheet set on the web site.
Also, something like the rules reference deck for classes or gear or feats would go a long way towards lowering weight for people as well as being a moneymaker for Paizo as well as, hopefully, being legal for PFS. That could be a win/win for everyone outside of the don't want to buy anything else camp.
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Sorry, but my "I am not really a fan of that idea" just turned into a "I hate it".
Doing all the Resouce Tracking Sheet once is a lot of work, but then it is done. Having to do that every year is alot of work you just dumped on people -in other words me.
I am sorry that you feel this way. I can understand the extra work. This is why my proposal includes high star GMs as well. And most of the work is on the player. I am not suggesting that a VO prepare the sheet.
That you for giving a VO viewpoint to the discussion.
You do understand that a 4 star GM is only a bit of effort, no real oversight from Paizo's side, and that even a 5 star GM only has one game audited by a Paizo employee or VO once?
That can be obtained by running 50 modules or AP segments.
That means that, for some groups, for example, which did multiple "speed runs" of Masterof the Fallen Fortress to grandfather in a bunch of Aasimar and/or Tiefling PCs, one case I herd of was something like 17 runs, that would be 34 table credits for that GM, not counting anything else he has run?
Yes, you could run a bunch of the Free RPG Day Tier 1-2 modules for credit, and fairly quickly get to 100 tables of credit.
Those modules include:
Master of the Fallen Fortress
We Be Goblins!
So, what is a high star GM?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Just a question, Gary: what do you think should happen if, two hours into a game, the local WIFI drops and the Hunter's player can no longer access the SRD on-line?
Right now, that can happen, if a player comes to the table with only PDFs (no print-offs) and the laptop loses power. Under those circumstances, the player no longer has access to the character, so I give him his Chronicle sheet (with whatever rewards the party has earned) and send him on his way. But your proposal makes the player much more dependent on technology.
It makes it much more likely that the GM will have to handle the player's laptop / tablet / phone. That strikes me as a substantial downside.
Chris,
I would disagree. Part of my proposal would require the player to have a copy of the pages of the books they own to support their character. While my proposal does not directly require PDF pages, it does encourage it. I would be open to requiring printout/photocopies of all resources.
I don't see any change how to handle this situation from the current method as you outlined. My proposal would support ownership because PDFS are to be listed on the Resource Tracking Sheet but not be able to support a GM if they needed to see the resource.
A good question. Maybe this is a whole in my proposal. I am sure that it really is.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I do say that I'd be in favor of something to cut down weight for things like needing Ultimate Equipment or the APG or whatever for one consumable. Things of that nature, things that are fairly common but just in one of the newer books should IMO be OKed without having to have the hardback, especially if they are on a website or a printout that anyone has. That's a quick check and even something that could be compiled for a GM/player worksheet set on the web site.
Knightnday,
You bring up a interesting option that I had not considered. A player has a Resource Tracking Sheet but not the required photocopies. But someone else at the table has the hardback. My proposal is silent if Player A can use Player B's resource if Player A has a valid ownership.
I would say that player A would not be able to use Player B's resource.
My brain just got dizzy... :)
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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You do understand that a 4 star GM is only a bit of effort, no real oversight from Paizo's side, and that even a 5 star GM only has one game audited by a Paizo employee or VO once?
So, what is a high star GM?
Kinevon,
I have been waiting for someone to ask this. :)
I consider a high star GM of being 4 or 5 stars. 100 games as GM I would say is more than just "a bit of effort". In my area, it would take a person maybe two years to get 100 games in. And from what I understand, getting the 5th star is not easy either. And if a person is going to put that effort in, they have shown a degree of dedication to the game and to Paizo. Lets not forget, GMs usually have to buy the missions they run for us.
Paizo, and thus us, rely on GMs to do a lot. There is a lot of trust placed on these individuals. Why shouldn't they also be trusted to simply verify ownership? If they are doing the job that Paizo wants them to do they are already verifying ownership with audits. But we have heard one account of what has happen when a GM did audit the players. He is now suffering a backlash by players.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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You bring up a interesting option that I had not considered. A player has a Resource Tracking Sheet but not the required photocopies. But someone else at the table has the hardback. My proposal is silent if Player A can use Player B's resource if Player A has a valid ownership.
I would say that player A would not be able to use Player B's resource.
My brain just got dizzy... :)
Under the current rules (as quoted by Nefreet in the fourth post of this thread), player A can use Player B's resources, even if he doesn't own a copy, if Player A and Player B are both members of a group of friends that regularly play together.
I'm not prepared to rule who is, and who isn't, a member of such a group, so I would only require that there be one copy at the table (as long as Player B was prepared to share). I generally don't make my own reference copies available to players when I GM, but I'd be prepared to do so if I were a player (at least at local stores, where I know most of the players).
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You do understand that a 4 star GM is only a bit of effort, no real oversight from Paizo's side, and that even a 5 star GM only has one game audited by a Paizo employee or VO once?
So, what is a high star GM?
Kinevon,
I have been waiting for someone to ask this. :)
I consider a high star GM of being 4 or 5 stars. 100 games as GM I would say is more than just "a bit of effort". In my area, it would take a person maybe two years to get 100 games in. And from what I understand, getting the 5th star is not easy either. And if a person is going to put that effort in, they have shown a degree of dedication to the game and to Paizo. Lets not forget, GMs usually have to buy the missions they run for us.
Paizo, and thus us, rely on GMs to do a lot. There is a lot of trust placed on these individuals. Why shouldn't they also be trusted to simply verify ownership? If they are doing the job that Paizo wants them to do they are already verifying ownership with audits. But we have heard one account of what has happen when a GM did audit the players. He is now suffering a backlash by players.
As my spoiler pointed out, you can get to 4 stars on only 50 games, and those being only 4 hours or less duration. Less if doing a bunch of speed runs, which I know at least one of those modules listed has had in the past.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Under the current rules (as quoted by Nefreet in the fourth post of this thread), player A can use Player B's resources, even if he doesn't own a copy, if Player A and Player B are both members of a group of friends that regularly play together.I'm not prepared to rule who is, and who isn't, a member of such a group, so I would only require that there be one copy at the table (as long as Player B was prepared to share). I generally don't make my own reference copies available to players when I GM, but I'd be prepared to do so if I were a player (at least at local stores, where I know most of the players).
John, I don't believe that's the case at game days and conventions. I have understood that the "sharing" issue for friends is for private PFS games.
People in the same immediate family (fathers and children, or spouses) yes. But if regular gaming companions each want to play an ACG class at my convention table, each needs to bring his or her own copy of the ACG.
If you have a quotation from the campaign leadership that corrects me, I'm of course open to that.
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I can commiserate with that although I haven't experienced it. But my experiences are colored by hiking with 40 or so pounds so a few books aren't as much a bother to me.
Not so much fun anymore with a broken foot and back.
I'd imagine if you play warhammer you can afford a car. Or you can sell your warhammer and buy a car gift of the magi style...
Rollers are a problem. They add a signifigant amount of weight to the bag (which makes it hard to put up on the rack), are not escalator friendly, are not rough sidewalk/street friendly, and are usually too short to make it worth it.
The most practical solution is reasonable enforcement, which is what i've always seen. If you see someone schleping half a ton of paizo product just accept their word that there's another half/ They're supporting paizo and acting within the spirit of the rules and thats close enough. There's enough crazy abilities and combos out there that you'd need a venn diagram and a map to cuthulu's playhouse to track some things down anyway. If its not breaking the game, look it up after.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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People in the same immediate family (fathers and children, or spouses) yes. But if regular gaming companions each want to play an ACG class at my convention table, each needs to bring his or her own copy of the ACG.
If you have a quotation from the campaign leadership that corrects me, I'm of course open to that.
As quoted by Nefreet earlier in this thread:
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement. For example, if they all play Chelaxian characters and utilize rules from the Cheliax book, and they are all playing at the same table, then they only need one Cheliax book at the table, and that book can be either physical or an electronic, watermarked copy. However, if they are playing at different tables, each person at a different table will need a physical copy, a PDF copy, or a printed watermarked copy of the relevant pages with them, that covers anything they choose to utilize in the build of their charactert.
It is unclear whether this is intended to be a case of "other members of the same household living together (such as college room mates)", as mentioned in the preceding sentence, or a separate example. I choose to take the more liberal interpretation. I also see nothing to say that the rules for conventions are in any way different from the rules for private games (other than GMs of private games not being required to allow all classes, races, etc., in their games); PFS is supposed to provide a uniform experience.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Sorry, but my "I am not really a fan of that idea" just turned into a "I hate it".
Doing all the Resouce Tracking Sheet once is a lot of work, but then it is done. Having to do that every year is alot of work you just dumped on people -in other words me.
I am sorry that you feel this way. I can understand the extra work. This is why my proposal includes high star GMs as well. And most of the work is on the player. I am not suggesting that a VO prepare the sheet.
That you for giving a VO viewpoint to the discussion.
My opinion regarding the idea has changed only a little bit since I became a VL, I think, that I would have to time to deal once with a couple of these tracking sheets (maybe by appointment) and with a way to scribble into the hardcovers (maybe the PFS Number).
Doing it every year, makes it a very unattractive idea. And frankly, while I know most of the VOs in my area, I have no way to check if the tracking sheet was filled out by the a 5 Star GM, if the signature is genuine etc. so you might have to make accepting such a sheet optional too.
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As one who has spent countless conventions hauling my books and GMing gear ... and looking for solutions to avoid the back strain.
PDFs are a viable option -- easy to print from, watermarked and never contested (unless it's not your watermark)
Tablet -- holds your pdfs .. downside is that you have to make sure it's charged -- look for a tablet with a long long battery life and you're golden
laptop -- bulky and takes up table realestate, however, would only need to be used to pull up resources and could be kept in bag or under chair when not needed -- would need to have character printed
rolling bag -- eliminates back strain, holds all the books and character binders and as long as it's one able to stand on end reduces the amount of floor space --- I used one for years and trust me, it's bulky but it is effective
if none of those options appeals to you, then I would say reduce the number of books used -- yes I know it's not a popular option, but it is an option.
The bottom line is that photocopies of books, torn out pages and anything not able to be verified as you having made the purchase is not going to be acceptable. My opinion is asking for coordinators and GMs to add to their tasklist is not acceptable either
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Doing it every year, makes it a very unattractive idea. And frankly, while I know most of the VOs in my area, I have no way to check if the tracking sheet was filled out by the a 5 Star GM, if the signature is genuine etc. so you might have to make accepting such a sheet optional too.
Sebastian,
The concern has been raised about doing this once and basically giving players the ability to get rid of the resource. This is why I proposed having the sheet updated on a regular basis.
Something you may not have considered, that I don't think you would like either, is that if a player buys a new book/PDF, then they should update their Resource Tracking Sheet. This could make updates come more often.
I am unfamiliar with how stars are tracked but I thought I saw a list someplace that shows all the 5 star GMs. 4 star GMs may be a different problem.
Thank you for taking the time to post.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The bottom line is that photocopies of books, torn out pages and anything not able to be verified as you having made the purchase is not going to be acceptable. My opinion is asking for coordinators and GMs to add to their tasklist is not acceptable either
Thea,
Thank you for adding to the discussion. I am very encouraged by the number of VOs who have been taking part in this thread. Discouraged that more are not supportive but this is the whole reason for having this thread.
My proposal would not allow for torn out pages. And photocopying of the ENTIRE page, not just the part of the page needed for the resource. Nor does my proposal allow for "copy and paste" something together. The Resource Tracking Sheet is what provides proof of ownership.
I am unsure how my proposal would add to the the tasklist of coordinators and GMs. Can you help me understand this better?
Thanks again for joining the conversation.
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The bottom line is that photocopies of books, torn out pages and anything not able to be verified as you having made the purchase is not going to be acceptable. My opinion is asking for coordinators and GMs to add to their tasklist is not acceptable eitherThea,
Thank you for adding to the discussion. I am very encouraged by the number of VOs who have been taking part in this thread. Discouraged that more are not supportive but this is the whole reason for having this thread.
My proposal would not allow for torn out pages. And photocopying of the ENTIRE page, not just the part of the page needed for the resource. Nor does my proposal allow for "copy and paste" something together. The Resource Tracking Sheet is what provides proof of ownership.
I am unsure how my proposal would add to the the tasklist of coordinators and GMs. Can you help me understand this better?
Thanks again for joining the conversation.
The reason more VOs are not more supportive (I'm making a broad assumption and I am not speaking for all VOs I'm sure) is that most of us have been here from the beginning and have seen the rulings in the past .. we have seen this tried time and time again.
Paizo has handed down what they consider reasonable options to have to carry all the hardback books.
Your proposal (from my understanding) requires VOs and GMs to sign off on all book purchases on a tracking sheet. GMs do not have the time to do this at a convention (some people only play at conventions); VOs don't always have the time between slots or during games to sign off on this. So it is adding something extra to what they are already doing.
There are viable options to having to carry the hardcover books. I do not see your proposal as a viable option as any GM or VO signature can be forged.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The reason more VOs are not more supportive (I'm making a broad assumption and I am not speaking for all VOs I'm sure) is that most of us have been here from the beginning and have seen the rulings in the past .. we have seen this tried time and time again.Paizo has handed down what they consider reasonable options to have to carry all the hardback books.
Your proposal (from my understanding) requires VOs and GMs to sign off on all book purchases on a tracking sheet. GMs do not have the time to do this at a convention (some people only play at conventions); VOs don't always have the time between slots or during games to sign off on this. So it is adding something extra to what they are already doing.
There are viable options to having to carry the hardcover books. I do not see your proposal as a viable option as any GM or VO signature can be forged.
Thea,
I am new to the game so I am unaware of the past. I will try to look in the forums to understand what has been talked about previously.
The tracking sheet really has to be done one time. It is not intended by my to have to updated at every game.
I can understand the time constraints at conventions. I don't see a problem with VOs, GMs, or convention staff doing the sheets at specific times that would likely be outside the allocated playing times.
My proposed tracking sheet should save time for GMs during games. The player has proof of ownership with the tracking sheet. As part of the "deal" for players not have have the heavy books, they have to have photocopies of the pages they need for their characters. This could be available much faster ("Here is the photocopy") than having to take the time to find it in the book, on a PDF, or on the PRD.
And my proposal is voluntary. The player does not have to use the Resource Tracking Sheet. It is in fact a lot of work for the player. My proposal is meant to an alternative, not a replacement of the current rule.
The forged signature that has been brought up before and there is no good answer to this. Who can say that the chronicles that a player has are not forged? There is a way, I am sure, but not being a GM I do not know what it is.
I don't think we as a player base have to be stuck in the same rut because that is how it has always been done. I am trying to find an alternative that would work for the goals set out: Revenue for Paizo and the need for GMs to have the rules available and not have to own them themselves.
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Thea,
I am new to the game so I am unaware of the past. I will try to look in the forums to understand what has been talked about previously.
The previous rulings were made available to you regarding this; you dismissed them as they didn't have this exact proposal. End the end you are asking for exactly the same thing as has been asked in the past
The tracking sheet really has to be done one time. It is not intended by my to have to updated at every game.
I can understand the time constraints at conventions. I don't see a problem with VOs, GMs, or convention staff doing the sheets at specific times that would likely be outside the allocated playing times.
Still requiring others to give up their free time to sign off on things .. I seriously doubt that there is anyone that is going to do that. I know when I'm at a convention that my free time is very little and signing off on a bunch of sheets for people to avoid having to do the heavy lifting is not something I'm willing to do.
Granted, others may feel differently, but having been in this community for several years I'll err on the side that the majority isn't going to give up their free time.
My proposed tracking sheet should save time for GMs during games. The player has proof of ownership with the tracking sheet. As part of the "deal" for players not have have the heavy books, they have to have photocopies of the pages they need for their characters. This could be available much faster ("Here is the photocopy") than having to take the time to find it in the book, on a PDF, or on the PRD.
Considering the PRD isn't a viable option for players it shouldn't even be a consideration in this case.
In any case, I wish you luck. I don't see this gaining any ground and I'm done debating past issues.