Your Super Cool Vigilantes


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


Hi guys; probably none of us will get to try the Vigilante in a full campaign during this initial playtest, but what are your initial thoughts for playing one in a campaign?

I've always been a fan of superheroes with strange magical abilities of unclear origin, so I'm attracted to the Warlock myself. I figure rather than a spell caster the class will work better as a switch hitter with magical overtones.

So Initial thoughts (based very loosely on The Wasp from the Avengers):

Core Mechanical Wishlist:

1) The ability to fly unaided --ideally early access-- (requires 2 talents min or expensive items, sad face; besides the idea here was to mostly ignore casting so there’s a lot of baggage)
2) decent unarmed or gauntlet fighting options (check)
3) cool goggles (check)
4) pew-pew lasers from both fists (sad face)
5) ‘life energy’ manipulation (hrmm… Infernal healing/bond of blood + flavor text for defensive abilities -- check~ish).

Chassis: Vigilante-Warlock:

Class Abilities (Talent Order Arbitrary):

1 Dual Identity (CG/NG), Social Grace, Warlock Specialization (Arcane Training I)
2 Talent (Tattoo Chamber) Social Grace (+4 UMD)
3 Renown (+4 intimidate)
4 Talent (Mystic Bolt: Fire)
5 Startling Appearance (enemies FF if caught unaware -- can't fully capitalize on this as the warlock lacks burst w/o multiclass)
6 Talent (Educated Defense) Social Grace (+4 Sense Motive)
7 Loyal Aid (+1/2 lvl to gather info, limited escape bonus, buy random minor items without shopping)
8 Talent (Familiar – No Wasp Options.. Sad Face, but can reflavor something else)
9 Many Guises (similar to alter self), Greater Renown (+2 to intimidate)
10 Talent (Bond of Blood) Social Grace (+4 Perception)
11Frightening Appearance (free intimidate)
12 Talent (Arcane Striker)
13 Quick Change
14 Talent (Bombs) Social Grace (+4 Diplomacy)
15 True Renown (+2 intimidate)
16 Talent (Arcane Training II)
17 Stunning Appearance (nice little CC, poor synergy with warlock int casting stat – actually poor synergy with any specialization)
18 Talent (AT III) Social Grace (+4 Know: Arcana)
19 Everyman (specific mundane disguise)
20 Vengeance Strike (basically useless/non-thematic/misnomer), Talent (Mystic Bolt: Acid)

Weapons:

Cestus/Mystic Bolt, pre 4 some sort of bow/crossbow. Post 4 possibly some form of crossbow for front end damage, then drop in favor of bolt.

Feats:
1 Weapon Finesse
Human: PBS
3 Precise Shot
5 WF: Mystic Bolt
7 TWF
9 Skill Focus: Spellcraft
11 Extend (so that fly lasts longer when we get it, pick up magical lineage as a trait)
13 Blind Fight
15 Ranged or TWF or Blind-Fight stuff
17 Ranged or TWF stuff
19 Ranged or TWF stuff

Mechanical Questions @ Paizo Staff:

Are Mystic Bolts Finessable in Melee?

General Tactics:

Run around destroying large groups with bombs; maybe pick up parting shot or spring attack to help with this. Utilize Consumables (wands/scrolls/alchemical items), and at higher level staves/rods to supplement very poor casting ability. Focus on team pre-buff/crowd management. Since healing in combat is very limited (infernal healing) pump up the ranged damage, possibly by dipping rogue for EWP Hand Crossbows. If I had gone Ifrit instead of Human then smoke sticks or multi-class Unchained Ninja would be very powerful. The fact that you can use items within the spell chamber of your tattoo without drawing them (and drawing them is a swift action) is really nifty; I wish I could use this to TWF with mystic bolt/wand, but unfortunately the wand is still a standard action activation.

I believe there's a feat that lets you treat intimidated opponents as flat footed? If so pick that up at 11, and the 'Appearance' line of abilities becomes more viable.

Thoughts on how Paizo could better support this specific build:

The biggest mechanical limitation is that the Warlock has very limited spell access, and if you want a single particular spell options (in this case fly) you have to blow multiple talents to get it.

Signature Spell could be used as a very nice work around if it allowed the Warlock the ability to cast one spell per day from the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell list as if it had the prerequisite arcane training for that spell; perhaps this spell could be changed once per week/month/upon level, and treat it in all other ways like it’s a domain spell. Currently the Talent does nothing if you want to use primarily non spell options in combat

Mystic Bolts should be an SU ability.

Tattoo Chamber has amazing potential for making use of consumables/crafting feats to have fall back options while in your social form, unfortunately it is currently inaccessible while in said form.

Further development of Mystic Bolts to be balanced in a TWF build would be amazing.

Thoughts on how Paizo could better develop this specific Specialization:

Mystic Bolts need more interaction with the rest of the Warlock’s toolkit. Bond of Blood should trigger off of it for example; it might be interesting to tie the bolt into Elemental Battle Armor in some way; perhaps suppressing one or the ability to augment the other. Certain aspects of this specialization would work very well thematically with the vigilante’s social persona. Tatoo Chamber for example is a very non-descript way of carrying around some magical/non magical tools for the social persona to go sleuthing with. The Social persona usually has access to places the vigilante does not, and players need something to make the social persona feel more mechanically important/integrated anyways. Plus there’s a nice synergy between Social Grace (UMD) and having wands/scrolls you can store in your arm and attempt to use as normal (since you lack the spell casting abilities while in your social persona).

Mystic Bolts should be an SU ability. It would be nice if energy type was a little more flexible, and if TWF was an option.

It would be nice if the Warlock could benefit from wearing armor in combat without hamstringing all his other abilities.

Vigilante casting should be based off of CHA to compliment its heavy emphasis on diplomacy and subterfuge.

The class would be much more fun if it got at least 1 spell/day for free of every spell level.

What I find fun about the concept:

I get to run around shooting people in the face, and have a few nice if minor options for mitigating their return damage/if they close to melee. Best thing is at later levels I get to use their spells against them, which makes up for me not being able to cast spells myself (if wearing armor, etc). I play a lot of rogues, and the potential options that Tattoo Chamber opens up for hiding objects/utilizing unkown objects in combat is near endless. I love thinking about it, and really want to try it out in game.

Optimization Level of this Specific Build:

Poor. Mechanically better off going Elven Unchained Rogue 3/Warlock 17 and do a reach build with the Elven Branched Spear, swapping to mystic bolts for ranged. Or to better fit the flavor of my build Half Elf/Human EWP Saw-Tooth Saber UR 4/warlock 16 with a TWF build. UR grants access to hand crossbows could make the TWF slightly better if more feat intensive. Feat Choices not specialized as they should be, build order scattered. In the case of Mystic Bolts being finesseable then drop saw-tooth saber for ?(rapier?) + mystic bolt and give the bolt the dex damage from finesse training.

Relative Power compared to Similar Concepts:

Abysmal caster, weak for melee compared to similarly themed arcanist/magus builds (very weak compared to magus). Warlock has more consistent ranged and general weapon options than either, although Arcanist/Magus have better singular weapon selection via archetypes. Arcanist has better ranged options overall considering its spell casting ability. Has proficiency with light/medium armors but unlike Magus suffers spell failure in them; adds a feat burden to the Vigilante if they're into that sort of thing. My limited spell selection build pretty much ignores this however. Maybe with Smoke Sticks and Ifrit would be very powerful kiter at low levels. This option is seriously hamstrung at higher levels due to lack of casting options.


After running a short playtest I'd change one small thing about this: Mystic Bolts seems fine as an SLA. I'd probably also go for the nonlethal spell damage option for nonlethal mystic bolts at some point.


Also it might be nice if Arcane Training I was non-mandatory; I'd prefer the level one specialization to be left open and made more thematic. Perhaps if you chose casting at level one you'd get partial scaling from it, if you took mystic bolt you'd get some interesting buffs/TWF option, Tattoo chamber could have expanded social persona options, and for bombs you'd add int to damage. Just a thought.


Well I’d hoped to get more mechanical feedback from the community here, but at the risk of making the thread entirely selfish here’s my take on the stalker.

Idea:

Goku (as a young boy). Well really asian kung-fu bo staff master.

Core Mechanical Wishlist:

1) Proficiency with a really good reach weapon (check)
2) The ability to shorten said reach weapon to close range (sad face)
3) A magic flying cloud to ride on (well we can re-flavor some equipment – check)
4) Extraordinary reflexes allowing the stalker to react to unseen dangers (multiple checks!)
5) Kamehameha beam (negative)
6) Hardheaded (ish from Another day + nice will save)
7) Fast Movement (, but we can climb at least and we can reflavor Hide in Plain Sight to make up for it)
8) Fall from near orbit without dying (check-ish)
9) Super Intimidate (check)

Chassis: Vigilante-Stalker
Class Abilities (Talent Order Arbitrary):
Race: Elf

1 Dual Identity (CG/NG), Social Grace, Stalker Specialization (Hidden Strike)
2 Talent (Strike the Unseen) Social Grace (+4 UMD)
3 Renown (+4 intimidate)
4 Talent (Foe Collision)
5 Startling Appearance (enemies FF for a round if caught unaware)
6 Talent (Leave an Opening) Social Grace (+4 Sense Motive)
7 Loyal Aid (+1/2 lvl to gather info, limited escape bonus, buy random minor items without shopping)
8 Talent (Hide in Plain Sight)
9 Many Guises (similar to alter self), Greater Renown (+2 to intimidate)
10 Talent (Silent Dispatch) Social Grace (+4 Perception)
11Frightening Appearance (free intimidate)
12 Talent (Perfect Vulnerability)
13 Quick Change
14 Talent (Twisting Fear) Social Grace (+4 Diplomacy)
15 True Renown (+2 intimidate)
16 Talent (Surprise Strike)
17 Stunning Appearance (nice little CC, makes dumping cha less attractive)
18 Talent (Up Close and Personal) Social Grace (+4 Appraise)
19 Everyman (specific mundane disguise)
20 Vengeance Strike (basically useless/non-thematic/misnomer), Talent (Rooftop Infiltrator)

Weapons:

Elven Branched Spear. Armor Spikes. Other?

Feats:

1 Weapon Finesse
3 Dodge
5 Mobility
7 Spring Attack
9 Whirlwind
11 Lunge
13 Combat Reflexes
15 Power Attack
17 Cleave
19 Cleaving Finish

General Tactics:

Sneak Around to get a general idea of enemy formations. Use wands/mage friend/distractions to get in close enough for a spring attack or whirlwind.

Thoughts on how Paizo could better support this specific build:

Really Heavy feat taxes on the whirlwind line; I suppose I could have gone more of a str/dex build and gone cleave over whirlwind but ethe stalker needs some finesse love.

Thoughts on how Paizo could better develop this specific Specialization:

The kit is really nice if you’re already in position, or if you’ve had time to stake something out extensively. It would be really nice if the stalker had some inherent gap closing/threat redirection/distraction creation options.

What I find fun about the concept:

Being sneaky really pays off! Well potentially. The chances of ever getting a hidden strike whirlwind + foe collision (hidden strike as nonlethal) + free intimidate +free 1/2 hidden strike damage into AoE into next round whirlwind + free AoO vs everyone + foe collision rnd 2 is insanely small. Also I sort of ignored dealing with single targets. Oops. Well at least the build threatens out to 15’.

Optimization Level of this Specific Build:

Poor. Needs at least three levels of Unchained Rogue for damage/to negate feat burden. Should really have gone cornugon smash into shatter defenses and ignored all the AoE things.

Relative Power compared to Similar Concepts:

Good vs Crowds (strangely) and mooks. Not outstanding at any one thing, but reasonable damage, ok accuracy, ok skills, feat starved, nice stealth bonuses but no real kit support for them pre Hide in Plain Sight. The class needs a multiclass with URogue/UNinja in which case it’s strong but not overwhelming in any particular category.

Liberty's Edge

Wow your really good at this... I only do society play so I'm trying to build a halfling stalker basically based off of Hawkeye and green arrow and realizing how feat starve this class is going to be


Drow (darkness SLA + wand of Recharge Innate Magic) with silent dispatch, Sniper, perfect vulnerability, and hide in plain sight would be my core approach to a ranged stalker. Feat burden makes ranged generally untenable without some form of multiclass (I'd start fighter).

Some trick arrow talent options would be a nifty addition to the stalker and/or Warlock list(s).

general Arrow/Hawkeye feats:

1Catch off guard (arrows/bow in melee).
fighter1: PBS
Fighter 2: Precise Shot
Stalker After.
Level 3: Either Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim

For a Halfling sniping will be much harder at low levels. Might be better off doing a switch hitter approach with an opening snipe agumented by a couple ninja levels (+vanishing trick), then move in to melee. (TWF bow/arrows?) Actually if switch hitter you might need to go unchained rogue for the finesse training instead since unchained ninja is not PFS legal.


Round 2: Start!

There are some nice changes in Round 2, but the only specialization that really jumps out at me is the Stalker, so on to Solid Snake

Idea:

Generic Black Ops guy, David a.k.a. Solid Snake, here to kill you before you even realize it.

Core Mechanical Wishlist

1) Proficiency with all sorts of random weapons, including a hand powered railgun (weapons, check; random weapons not so much)
2) The ability to sneak around in a glaringly obvious cardboard box (check)
3) The ability to ‘distract’ people with erm…quality reading material (we can flavor silent dispatch/bluff to hide with this; check!)
4) The ability to throw a knife into someone’s throat, then run over and kill them with it from behind (check).
5) An ambulance box so I can sneak allies around while the zealot heals them (sad face)
6) A social persona which gets no playtime (check -- would prefer this wasn't the case)
7) The ability to hide my leavings (Check)

Chassis: Vigilante -- Stalker

Race: ??? – I have options; Half Elf maybe? For Skill Focus: Acrobatics.

Core Class Abilities (Order somewhat Arbitrary):

1 Renown
3 Safehouse
5 Social Grace (UMD/Perception/Sense Motive/Diplomacy/Bluff)
7 Quick Change
9 Many Guises
11 Great Renown
13 Immediate Change
15 Instant Recognition
17 Everyman
19 Any Guise
20 Vengeance Strike

Specialization Class Abilities (Order Specialized at low levels)

1: Hidden Strike
2: Leave an Opening
4: Up Close and Personal
6: Throat Jab
8: Hide in Plain Sight
10: Silent Dispatch
12: Strike the Unseen
14: Surprise Strike
16: Pull into the Shadows
18: Perfect Vulnerability
20: Twisting Fear

Weapons:

Kukris/daggers/kerambit/other?

Feats:

1: Weapon Finesse
3: PBS
5: Opening Volley
7: Precise Shot
9: Combat Reflexes
11: Combat Expertise
13: Moonlight Stalker
15: Power Attack
17: Furious Focus
19: Cornugon Smash

General Tactics:

Sneak around someone using cover/concealment – heavy reliance on smoke sticks or allied caster until at least level 8. Once in position lead off with a knife throw d8 Hidden Strike with Throat Jab. Throat Jab silences the enemy while I move up to finish them off. Use this movement through an opponent’s space to trigger UC&P to get a second d8 Hidden Strike with Leave an Opening (in case they don’t drop); if they do drop activate Silent Dispatch along with Pull into the Shadows to remove the body and stay hidden. Repeat until someone doesn’t drop from your first two hits.

Facing a big guy is really challenging here; not only are you likely to provoke (and lack the feats for mobility), but you are not set up to stand next to someone and wail on them. Instead you’re going to want to do your normal engage (outlined in the above paragraph), and then disengage immediately the next turn. UC&P through their square, and run away 30’. Then turn around and throw a weapon at them (hopefully setting up an opening Volley so your UC&P is more likely to hit next round; if it doesn’t, that’s ok – if bbeg doesn’t chase you then you get another chance to hit before closing using the tactics from paragraph 1, if he does we just repeat our previous actions in this paragraph).

Also lots of little guys with overlapping fields of vision pretty much negate your ability to do anything.

Mechanical Quesitons @ Paizo Staff (really @ Mark)

If I use Opening Volley to get a +4 on my next attack, and that attack triggers Pull into the Shadows does the +4 apply to the attack roll for both the normal hit and Pull into the Shadows, or only for the attack which triggers Pull into the Shadows?

Thoughts on how Paizo could better support this specific build:

I love this thematically until I end up against a single big opponent at which point I’m pretty much useless. Also I have to take a lot of talents before pull into the darkness becomes viable – I’m worried that as a ¾ bab class I won’t be able to succeed with it at that level range. Opening Volley would help potentially, but I’m unclear if it would apply.

Thoughts on how Paizo could better develop this specific Specialization

The Stalker is at its core a hit and disengage class. Despite this there is no core support from any of the Stalker Talents to help you disengage from an enemy. There needs to be some mechanical help here to remove the dodge/mobility feat burden if I simply run away; preferably adding a trap feature in case people decide to pursue me. Alternatively some risky in combat options aimed at doing things like playing dead would really open up the Stalker to a wholly new approach to combat.

What I find fun about the concept:

It is what I wanted the Rogue to be. It is a great social class which also is really fun in combat, and extremely fun to theorycraft with.

Optimization Level of this Specific Build:

High – If I had a more comprehensive knowledge of all the ranged feats I feel I could make this extremely high. It combos well into itself and doesn’t really have any dead levels all the way to 20. Best of All I don’t feel the need to dip Unchained Rogue (although a finesse training option would still help immensely).

Relative Power to Similar Concpets:

Unique. You can shop around and get some of the parts piecemeal, but you have to play a Stalker to do this.


I'm surprised you would go leave an opening and up close and personal and not rush for the cornugon smash line and twisting fear at 6. It seems like you do all the work to that section of the build online and then right before you do, abandon it for 10 levels.


I'm working on something with a stalker build similar to yours Trekkie. I hope to have it finished and posted by the weekend.


@Tuyena

They were tacked on at the end mostly because I ran out of things I actually wanted to grab around level 16 and they're solid choices.

In no way are they part of the stealthy stalker build or the Solid Snake Concept. I'd actually have preferred to stick closer to the original concept all the way to 20.

What you describe is an option; it's an option available to every Vigilante though; I wanted something the Stalker could do and excel at which was uniquely Stalker.

This was what I came to.

EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that I'd have preferred to eliminate Leave an Opening from the build order. I was originally going to start with UC&P, but it has a level 4 prereq (Sad face with all the tears). And then grab Throat Jab; these two talents are the mechnical basis for my core conecept with Pull into the Shadows, silent dispatch, and hide in plain sight added on to make it viable into higher levels/more scenarios. Throat Jab is wonderful to take once you have a follow up mechanism (either Leave an Opening, or UC&P), by itself it does nothing for this build. Which is why I didn't take it at 2. I could have, but I'd have had dead levels.

@ Vrog -- I look forward to reading it.


you can find it here.


Come to think of if I'd have been a lot better off grabbing Underhanded at 2. Combining that with the leaked Stalker Sense would be a strong addition to this build, as well as good motivation to prioritize cha to help synergize with the social aspects of the class. The major problem being that the next open talent slot I have is at 10 and that's too long to wait between complimentary abilities :P. Especially since both are focused around surprise rounds which rarely come up when I'm not DMing.

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