Can I choose to take 10 on my reroll?


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Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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So I've tried searching and I've seen some yes and some no. But then I saw "The Fox" say like it's officially a no somewhere. So I'm curious if there's an official stance on this or if it's up to the GM. (for sake of this assume the GM would be okay with a take 10 on the check normally)


You forget to say what you're rolling.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Does it matter what the roll is?
If it does matter
1)Diplomacy to gather info
2)day job checks
3)some random skill check


I for one am not aware of a general rule stating that you can't take 10 on re-rolls. The specific ability granting the re-roll might have such a limitation though.

Unless there is a dev comment somewhere to the contrary I can't think of a reason to disallow taking 10 on a re-roll if I would have been happy for you to take 10 on the initial check.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Expect Table Variation.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Andrew Christian wrote:
Expect Table Variation.

So that means there's not an official stance. That's good to know.


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I would think a good rule of thumb would be: if you could have taken 10 on the initial roll, then you can also take 10 on a reroll.

But yeah, table variation.


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How about the flip side? Can I use a reroll when a Take 10 doesn't work?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online aka IronHelixx

This is the previous discussion with Fox:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfb6?Reroll-question#1

...there was never an official answer, just general discussion/opinions.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Expect Table Variation.
So that means there's not an official stance. That's good to know.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Does it matter what the roll is?

If it does matter
1)Diplomacy to gather info
2)day job checks
3)some random skill check

Take 10 can only be done if you are not distracted or in immediate danger (so it does matter). Also Take 10 is for skills, so for most of the re-rolls I've seen the answer would be no. :)

Andrew has it right, expect table variation. (I will not spend game-time in a debate.)

Personal opinion. The reroll rule says you have to take the second roll, even if it is lower. It also has to be declared before the result of the roll is known. If one rolls less than 10, taking 10 removes the first element. If one knows Take 10 is a success it is too late for the reroll option. FWIW for some people 6-10 on a reroll is higher than a 10 the first time. (& the system is called d20 for a reason. I say roll the dice, take some chances :)

Silver Crusade

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Jesse Davis wrote:

This is the previous discussion with Fox:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfb6?Reroll-question#1
...there was never an official answer, just general discussion/opinions.

Yep. I was just about to post a link. ;)

In practice, I haven't yet played at a table with a GM who would allow this when I asked.

If anyone plays at my table and wants to take 10 on a reroll (for a skill check), I would probably allow it. If they want to take 10, immediately announce a reroll, and then take 10 with their GM star bonus added, I will definitely allow it (this was Chris Mortika's suggestion, and I think it is a fair compromise).

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

thejeff wrote:
How about the flip side? Can I use a reroll when a Take 10 doesn't work?

Per the Guide, rerolls can only be used before the result is revealed.


Rigby Bendele wrote:
thejeff wrote:
How about the flip side? Can I use a reroll when a Take 10 doesn't work?
Per the Guide, rerolls can only be used before the result is revealed.

Yeah, I thought and posted too quickly.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I haven't decided exactly how I'd rule on this.

But I have to consider: How can the reroll be less than the primary roll, if I choose to take 10 and ensure its higher?


Andrew Christian wrote:

I haven't decided exactly how I'd rule on this.

But I have to consider: How can the reroll be less than the primary roll, if I choose to take 10 and ensure its higher?

How can the reroll be less than the primary roll if I rolled a 1 the first time? That's not an argument for not being able to use rerolls if you roll a 1.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

thejeff wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I haven't decided exactly how I'd rule on this.

But I have to consider: How can the reroll be less than the primary roll, if I choose to take 10 and ensure its higher?

How can the reroll be less than the primary roll if I rolled a 1 the first time? That's not an argument for not being able to use rerolls if you roll a 1.

No, but I could roll another 1, and barring GM stars (and assuming its a skill check and not a combat roll), it doesn't get better. Taking 10 removes the chance that is inherent in the rules for taking a re-roll.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you could not take 10 on the roll in the first place, you can't do so on the reroll.

Silver Crusade 5/5

I'm inclined to say that players at my table can't take 10 on their reroll, unless they took 10 on their first roll, and they were able to take 10 in the first place. If a player chooses to roll to try and get a better roll the first time around, I don't think they should be able to take 10 on the reroll.

5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg

I'm on the side that if you had the option to take 10 on the initial roll, you have the same option on the reroll.

Sometimes a player might want to take a shot at rolling especially high, and failing that, just goes for the safe way on the reroll.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Florida—Jacksonville aka Baronjett

Curious question, why are re rolls allowed after a one is rolled on a saving throw? Everyone knows the result, ones always fail. So if the result is known why allow the re roll?

(Not trying to cause waves...just curious.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Mike Eckrich wrote:

Curious question, why are re rolls allowed after a one is rolled on a saving throw? Everyone knows the result, ones always fail. So if the result is known why allow the re roll?

(Not trying to cause waves...just curious.)

You know that you've failed but you don't necessarily know the results.


It's a formality. Very often you know the actual outcome as soon as you roll - an attack lower than the last one that missed , many skill rolls where the DC is calculable, etc.

Theoretically something could have changed, but really 95% of the time you know.

As long as they GM hasn't announced the results, you can reroll.


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I'm pretty sure when they say 'before you know the result' what they mean is 'before the GM has had to give away the target DC'.


If the GM tells you the DC up front, does that mean no rerolls?

If the GM tells you it failed as soon as they see the roll, does that stop rerolls?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

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thejeff wrote:

If the GM tells you the DC up front, does that mean no rerolls?

If the GM tells you it failed as soon as they see the roll, does that stop rerolls?

Yes, but in those cases, I also recognize that I messed up as the GM by not giving the play time to decide if they wish to re-roll, so I generally allow it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Rigby Bendele wrote:
thejeff wrote:

If the GM tells you the DC up front, does that mean no rerolls?

If the GM tells you it failed as soon as they see the roll, does that stop rerolls?

Yes, but in those cases, I also recognize that I messed up as the GM by not giving the play time to decide if they wish to re-roll, so I generally allow it.

I have made this mistake as a GM before. So I learned to give a pregnant pause before revealing the results (and often ask if they want to reroll).

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am thinking nope on both cases, based on the "rule as written" premise.

If you roll a die and you want to spend a"re-roll". Then you must re-roll the die.

If you decided to take ten, then no roll has happened thus there is nothing to "re-roll".

This is not a retry chance, it is a "re-roll" of a dice.

This how I would rule it based on "rules as written".

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online aka IronHelixx

The verbiage on TAKE 10 in the Core Rulebook is:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10.

Not sure if that changes anything for anyone - just thought I would throw that in there.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally I would not allow taking ten on a re-roll. Too often it would turn a re-roll into an automatic success, especially for people with GM stars. If you chose to roll and not take 10 the first time, you're stuck with that choice for re-rolling the die.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

All rolls exist in a Schrodinger Tableau until the GM looks at it and makes a ruling. During that tableau, the player can decide whether or not to use an a reroll he's entitled to.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

The Morphling wrote:
Personally I would not allow taking ten on a re-roll. Too often it would turn a re-roll into an automatic success, especially for people with GM stars. If you chose to roll and not take 10 the first time, you're stuck with that choice for re-rolling the die.

So are you saying that If I took 10 and then decided to re-roll that I'd be stuck with taking 10 on my re-roll. right?

Scarab Sages Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu

Taking 10 and using your re-roll on that does not compute... If you are using your re-roll on a take10, you're wasting it. Either you already knew taking 10 would fail, at which point why take10? Or, you're trying to use it after the GM has declared the result, which isn't allowed. Are there any other times you would take 10 and use your re-roll afterwards?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
Taking 10 and using your re-roll on that does not compute... If you are using your re-roll on a take10, you're wasting it.

Not if you've got GM stars you're not ...

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I think the idea is "I need to roll a 12, and I have 2 GM stars. I take ten, and reroll to take ten, so that is 12." But at that point why not roll for the first one, if you roll 12+ great, you saved yourself a reroll.

Silver Crusade

FLite wrote:

I think the idea is "I need to roll a 12, and I have 2 GM stars. I take ten, and reroll to take ten, so that is 12." But at that point why not roll for the first one, if you roll 12+ great, you saved yourself a reroll.

Because some GMs won't allow that.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
Personally I would not allow taking ten on a re-roll. Too often it would turn a re-roll into an automatic success, especially for people with GM stars. If you chose to roll and not take 10 the first time, you're stuck with that choice for re-rolling the die.
So are you saying that If I took 10 and then decided to re-roll that I'd be stuck with taking 10 on my re-roll. right?

If you take 10 and the GM tells you you failed the check, you can't use your reroll. Unless you go "I take 10. Um, I don't know if I succeeded, since the GM hasn't told me the DC yet. Gonna reroll now," then there's no way to take 10 and then reroll.

There would be no point to taking 10 on the first attempt. And I would not allow you to "take 12" if you had 2 GM stars, you would need to roll the die.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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The Morphling wrote:

If you take 10 and the GM tells you you failed the check, you can't use your reroll. Unless you go "I take 10. Um, I don't know if I succeeded, since the GM hasn't told me the DC yet. Gonna reroll now," then there's no way to take 10 and then reroll.

There would be no point to taking 10 on the first attempt. And I would not allow you to "take 12" if you had 2 GM stars, you would need to roll the die.

You're injecting your own personal preferences into the game.

All the rules have to say about "Taking 10" is that you may choose to take 10 instead of rolling the d20. That applies just as much to a re-roll as it does to an initial roll.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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The Morphling wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
Personally I would not allow taking ten on a re-roll. Too often it would turn a re-roll into an automatic success, especially for people with GM stars. If you chose to roll and not take 10 the first time, you're stuck with that choice for re-rolling the die.
So are you saying that If I took 10 and then decided to re-roll that I'd be stuck with taking 10 on my re-roll. right?

If you take 10 and the GM tells you you failed the check, you can't use your reroll. Unless you go "I take 10. Um, I don't know if I succeeded, since the GM hasn't told me the DC yet. Gonna reroll now," then there's no way to take 10 and then reroll.

There would be no point to taking 10 on the first attempt. And I would not allow you to "take 12" if you had 2 GM stars, you would need to roll the die.

So you're saying if I chose to roll the first time and use the reroll that I'm stuck with that choice and would have to roll the reroll, But if I take ten and then use the reroll I'd have to roll or you'd remove my GM stars bonus? How would you legally remove my GM stars?

This isn't seeming very consistent ruling and more like take 10 hate.

Liberty's Edge

The only time I really see anyone wanting to Take 10 as a re-roll would be on a day job check... take a chance at first, if it is poor, "re-roll, take 10.".

I suppose there could be other corner cases, such as GM stars, where the 10 you probably knew or suspected would fail in the first place (otherwise, why didn't you just take 10 to start with?) could improve things, but otherwise I don't see this as something with potential for abuse, so I would allow it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

One common use (brickbats coming, I'm sure):

I haven't used my reroll yet.

Day Job Checks. I take ten, burn my reroll, and take 15....


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As with all rerolls, I treat them as any other roll for an attack or skill check. I stick to the Taking 10 guidelines. If that means that someone still fails, so be it. ^_^

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Francis wrote:

You're injecting your own personal preferences into the game.

All the rules have to say about "Taking 10" is that you may choose to take 10 instead of rolling the d20. That applies just as much to a re-roll as it does to an initial roll.

Excuse me, this is an area where the rules say absolutely nothing. There's a reason this game has a Game Master instead of just a text print-out, and that's so she can make judgment calls when there's ambiguity.

My ruling is that no, you may not take 10 on a reroll, and you cannot reroll if you already decided to take 10, and I am perfectly within my rights and within the responsibility as a GM to do so. Your snide comment that my judgment call is invalid because you disagree with it is not welcome or helpful.

Chess Pwn wrote:

So you're saying if I chose to roll the first time and use the reroll that I'm stuck with that choice and would have to roll the reroll, But if I take ten and then use the reroll I'd have to roll or you'd remove my GM stars bonus? How would you legally remove my GM stars?

This isn't seeming very consistent ruling and more like take 10 hate.

Ok, this just seems to be misreading what I wrote. You can't take 10 on a reroll at my table, and you can't reroll if you already chose to take 10. I'm not "removing your GM star bonus" or something, and I have no idea why you think I said that.

TetsujinOni wrote:

One common use (brickbats coming, I'm sure):

I haven't used my reroll yet.

Day Job Checks. I take ten, burn my reroll, and take 15....

A perfect example of why this shouldn't be allowed.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

The Morphling wrote:
John Francis wrote:
All the rules have to say about "Taking 10" is that you may choose to take 10 instead of rolling the d20. That applies just as much to a re-roll as it does to an initial roll.
Excuse me, this is an area where the rules say absolutely nothing.

That is incorrect - the rules do say something about Taking 10.

CRB (p 86) wrote:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10.

So if I wasn't in danger or distracted on the original roll, how is the situation different on a re-roll? You're claiming it is different for some reason not called out in the rules.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

The Morphling wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The Morphling wrote:

If you take 10 and the GM tells you you failed the check, you can't use your reroll. Unless you go "I take 10. Um, I don't know if I succeeded, since the GM hasn't told me the DC yet. Gonna reroll now," then there's no way to take 10 and then reroll.

There would be no point to taking 10 on the first attempt. And I would not allow you to "take 12" if you had 2 GM stars, you would need to roll the die.

So you're saying if I chose to roll the first time and use the reroll that I'm stuck with that choice and would have to roll the reroll, But if I take ten and then use the reroll I'd have to roll or you'd remove my GM stars bonus? How would you legally remove my GM stars?

This isn't seeming very consistent ruling and more like take 10 hate.
Ok, this just seems to be misreading what I wrote. You can't take 10 on a reroll at my table, and you can't reroll if you already chose to take 10. I'm not "removing your GM star bonus" or something, and I have no idea why you think I said that.

So now you're denying me my reroll? You even described how you could use a reroll when your first roll was a take ten, which I bolded.

I get you're saying you wouldn't allow a take 10 on a reroll at your table. Your first reason was saying if you rolled the first time you need to roll the second. But then when the prospect of taking 10 and then doing a reroll on it you say they'd have to roll, even thought they took 10 on the first one. Now the GM stars part was assuming you could take 10 if you took 10 the first time.


John Francis wrote:


So if I wasn't in danger or distracted on the original roll, how is the situation different on a re-roll? You're claiming it is different for some reason not called out in the rules.

The situation is different based on the re-roll rules, not the Take 10 rules.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't mind that you disagree with my ruling, but your comments are unnecessarily argumentative.

I would not let a player make the decision (to take 10 or not) twice on the same check. I would not let you say "I'm going to jump this pit. I'll just take it easy and take ten. And instead of taking ten, I'm going to reroll. I got a 12." At my table, you cannot reroll if you never rolled in the first place, and you cannot reroll by not rolling.

Since it's a gray area and there's no official ruling, I wouldn't be surprised or upset if different GMs ruled completely differently, since this is rather undefined "house rules of PFS meets official rules of the RPG we're playing" territory. You are out of line when you claim I'm not able to legitimately make this call, though.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

The Morphling wrote:

I don't mind that you disagree with my ruling, but your comments are unnecessarily argumentative.

I would not let a player make the decision (to take 10 or not) twice on the same check. I would not let you say "I'm going to jump this pit. I'll just take it easy and take ten. And instead of taking ten, I'm going to reroll. I got a 12." At my table, you cannot reroll if you never rolled in the first place, and you cannot reroll by not rolling.

Since it's a gray area and there's no official ruling, I wouldn't be surprised or upset if different GMs ruled completely differently, since this is rather undefined "house rules of PFS meets official rules of the RPG we're playing" territory. You are out of line when you claim I'm not able to legitimately make this call, though.

So what rule are you using to disallow my reroll if my first roll was a take 10?

It's not so much that I disagree with it as I'm trying to understand it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Curaigh wrote:
John Francis wrote:


So if I wasn't in danger or distracted on the original roll, how is the situation different on a re-roll? You're claiming it is different for some reason not called out in the rules.
The situation is different based on the re-roll rules, not the Take 10 rules.

The only thing the Guide says is

GtPFSOP (p27) wrote:


A player [...] may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario.
[...] Additionally, when a player uses a free reroll, she may present her Pathfinder Society membership card and receive an additional +1 for every GM star she has earned, for a maximum of a +5.

Nothing there lends any support to a GM wanting to put additional restrictions on the roll simply because it's a reroll.

In fact the only time the Guide mentions "Take 10" is in the section on Day Job checks, where it says you may "Take 10" (but not "Take 20") on a Day Job. And that is there because taking 10 on a Day Job roll used not to be allowed; when that prohibition was lifted the wording was changed to allow "Take 10", rather than simply being removed.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The reason for this call is the fundamental nature of what taking 10 means. If you're taking 10, you're performing the action in a different way than if you're rolling a d20. You're doing a routine, stress-free attempt where you effortlessly do an average job. You can't decide to lazily do a routine jump over a pit, and then, mid-way across the gap, decide "I'd better make sure I give this one my all!" and then retroactively have thrown your weight into it in a desperate attempt to leap as far as possible - or vice versa. You can't fling yourself into empty space with every scrap of muscle you possess, only to slip at the last moment, and then say "Now that I'm about to die, I'll just retroactively have been calm and unhurried when I made this jump."

A reroll represents getting another chance at an unlucky roll, not a revision of the actions taken. Taking ten is fundamentally different than rolling the die, and allowing players to "take 10" on a reroll is letting them rewind time and perform a different action than they already performed. Rerolling doesn't let a player change their actions - only the result of an action that's already locked in.

Especially in a system where rerolls have built-in bonuses, letting people do this invites exploitation. Much better to disallow the option and leave rerolls as they're clearly intended to be - a second chance, not an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card.


Please let me reiterate, I am not advocating anything other than expect table variation.

John Francis wrote:
Curaigh wrote:
John Francis wrote:


So if I wasn't in danger or distracted on the original roll, how is the situation different on a re-roll? You're claiming it is different for some reason not called out in the rules.
The situation is different based on the re-roll rules, not the Take 10 rules.

The only thing the Guide says is

GtPFSOP (p27) wrote:

A player [...] may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario.

[...] Additionally, when a player uses a free reroll, she may present her Pathfinder Society membership card and receive an additional +1 for every GM star she has earned, for a maximum of a +5.

Nothing there lends any support to a GM wanting to put additional restrictions on the roll simply because it's a reroll.

In fact the only time the Guide mentions "Take 10" is in the section on Day Job checks, where it says you may "Take 10" (but not "Take 20") on a Day Job. And that is there because taking 10 on a Day Job roll used not to be allowed; when that prohibition was lifted the wording was changed to allow "Take 10", rather than simply being removed.

We have different definitions of 'only' I guess. Here is the rest of the paragraph quoted.

PFSGOP (pg 27) wrote:
...or Pathfinder branding, a player wearing any of the shirts listed below during a Pathfinder Society event may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario. This reroll must happen before the original result is determined and the player must use the reroll result, even if it is lower.

So I ask: is a 10 lower than the original roll? Is it higher than the original roll? And additionally: do you already know if the original result is higher or lower (can you look at a die and see X</>10)?

EDIT: Hence, why I say the difference is in the re-roll rules not the Take 10 rules.

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