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Hello Everybody,
I play a level 3 monk and was thinking about taking a class dip in Wizard.
So here is my question.
- The rules seem to state that a wizard can write any spell in his spell book, with an high enough spellcraft check, and that a Wizard can make a copy of the spells in his spellbook.
So, can a wizard also copy those spells back on scrolls with his own caster level ?
And can i use those scrolls with a use magic device check ?
tl;dr
Can i craft CL 1 Fireball scrolls ?
You must prepare the spell to create a scroll from it; you cannot simply copy it from your spellbook to a scroll. So you'll need a 5-level dip in wizard. And a minimum INT of 13.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Although, I suppose you might get away with it through cooperative crafting - but in that case, you could skip the wizard dip entirely and just have your cooperator create the scroll for you.
I may not have this correct, but I believe you need to be able to CAST the spell in order to scribe it.
Since your Int is so low, I am not sure you would be able to do this.
Again, I am not too familiar with this, so you might be better off waiting for a less-tenuous response. :D
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With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.
Yeah, can't do it. Scribing scrolls is different than writing into a spellbook. Spellbooks are the instructions for how to cast the spell. Scrolls are basically the spell already cast into the paper, waiting to be released by reading it. The material components etc. are built into the scroll, so you have to be able to cast it to scribe it.
You could Use Magic Device to do something like this, but a dip into wizard when you can't cast spells is really not a great idea unless there is a really solid story behind it.
And then there's this:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
So no, you can't create CR 1 Fireball scrolls even IF you know how to create Fireball scrolls - the minimum CR for a Fireball scroll is 5 (if you're a wizard).
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With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.
I agree. The rules state that for the wizard to cast his spell, his intelligence must be a high enough number, for example; 11 for level 1 spells, 12 for level two, etc. With an 8 int, you may not even learn cantrips. As for fireball, the lowest it can be scribed is level 5 fireball. To scribe the spell you might have to roll a Use Magic Device check because you can't cast it; in other words the spell has to be on your spell class list, and you must be able to cast it with a high enough int.
Take a level of Wildblooded Sorcerer going with the celestial blood. That way wis is your casting stat, you get lots of spells per day, and you have the whole wizard list to make UMD easy.
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With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.
I refer you to rincewind, from disk world
. He knows in his heart that he is a wizard, and various magical tools that only work for wizards work for him, but he doesn't have the talent to cast the most trivial spell.
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With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.
+1. There's a distinct strain of Lawful Stupid creeping around that has people convinced "there's no such thing as common sense or ethics, there is ONLY The Rules I see in front of me, and I have no personal responsibility beyond following them to the letter" - this is how the big corporations that rule the world think, and they just do a bang-up job with that, now don't they?
If you want to add some arcane magic to your character, an Emperial Sorcerer (celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype) would be your best choice, as that gives you wisdom as a casting stat. With a one level dip and the scribe scroll feat you could make first level scrolls of the spells that you know. Alternatively, cleric, druid or warpriest could give you divine magic, again using Wisdom.
Whether this is a good plan or not is very debatable, but in general dipping another class isn't as strong as just continuing with the class you have, and unless someone has a very specific plan and understand how to gain some synergy from multi-classing, I usually advise against it.
And I would always advise against an 8 int character taking a level in wizard.
If you want to add some arcane magic to your character, an Emperial Sorcerer (celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype) would be your best choice, as that gives you wisdom as a casting stat. With a one level dip and the scribe scroll feat you could make first level scrolls of the spells that you know. Alternatively, cleric, druid or warpriest could give you divine magic, again using Wisdom.
Whether this is a good plan or not is very debatable, but in general dipping another class isn't as strong as just continuing with the class you have, and unless someone has a very specific plan and understand how to gain some synergy from multi-classing, I usually advise against it.
And I would always advise against an 8 int character taking a level in wizard.
This was suggested 2 hours ago. He said he can't as that book isn't allowed in his game.
With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.+1. There's a distinct strain of Lawful Stupid creeping around that has people convinced "there's no such thing as common sense or ethics, there is ONLY The Rules I see in front of me, and I have no personal responsibility beyond following them to the letter" - this is how the big corporations that rule the world think, and they just do a bang-up job with that, now don't they?
This seems rather over-the-top.
I can think of a number of actual reasons, most of them social, why someone would want to study wizardry even if they had no talent for spellcasting. In the actual historical Middle Ages, for example, it was quite common for people to take training who had no intention of ever taking jobs. The goliards are good examples of this. Medieval universities were de-facto seminaries and the students were generally considered clerics in the eyes of the law, which granted considerable privilege (such as "benefit of clergy").
Ursala Le Guin described part of Earthsea customs as "a wizard's staff is passage and payment aboard most ships," and talks about the awe that villagers have for them.
A person wandering around with a familiar, wearing a pointy hat and a robe with stars on it is still a wizard in the eyes of most people. If I were to be in Earthsea, it sounds a lot more fun to be an incompetent wizard, always muttering about "equilibrium" and refusing to cast spells (for important sounding reasons) than to be, say, a swineherd, and even someone with intelligence 8 will recognize that.
Yes, a spell-less wizard is pretty useless, but so's a swineherd.
I see no reason why anyone in the world couldn't study wizardry. True, they may not learn it. But if the tuition checks clear, there's probably someone who will try to teach them.
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.+1. There's a distinct strain of Lawful Stupid creeping around that has people convinced "there's no such thing as common sense or ethics, there is ONLY The Rules I see in front of me, and I have no personal responsibility beyond following them to the letter" - this is how the big corporations that rule the world think, and they just do a bang-up job with that, now don't they?This seems rather over-the-top.
A person wandering around with a familiar, wearing a pointy hat and a robe with stars on it is still a wizard in the eyes of most people. If I were to be in Earthsea, it sounds a lot more fun to be an incompetent wizard, always muttering about "equilibrium" and refusing to cast spells (for important sounding reasons) than to be, say, a swineherd, and even someone with intelligence 8 will recognize that.
Yes, a spell-less wizard is pretty useless, but so's a swineherd.
Well, unless you have an oracular pig.
With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.I refer you to rincewind, from disk world
. He knows in his heart that he is a wizard, and various magical tools that only work for wizards work for him, but he doesn't have the talent to cast the most trivial spell.
Though an amusing character he's an outlier.
It's like being a mathematician, but not understanding anything past basic addition.
Though an amusing character he's an outlier.It's like being a mathematician, but not understanding anything past basic addition.
Which is nice work, if you can get it. The Wall Street Journal in 2014 listed "mathematician" as the best job in the world. Indoor work, great job security, high pay, extremely low stress, the ability to pick your own hours, safe working environment,
... and no heavy lifting.
That sounds like something every swineherd would love to have, especially when it's 4am and he's knee-deep in freezing mud.
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With an 8 int and the inability to learn cantrips I fail to see how a person could even study wizadry. True the rules may say differently, but I think this is a fairly common sense scenario.I refer you to rincewind, from disk world
. He knows in his heart that he is a wizard, and various magical tools that only work for wizards work for him, but he doesn't have the talent to cast the most trivial spell.Though an amusing character he's an outlier.
It's like being a mathematician, but not understanding anything past basic addition.
Or like being a programmer, but copying all of your code out of various cookbooks.
(Why no. I never had a professor like that. Why would you ask. I mean, just because when I asked him if the checksum we were supposed to be coding for our network client to communicate with his network client was Most significant bit first, or least significant bit, and he pulled a book off his shelf and told me to use the code on this page, and did I want to borrow the book? I mean, I'm sure he was able to code. I just never saw him do it. He got the job during a time when there weren't a lot of computers programmers, and the college needed a network security expert, and he had an extensive interest in network security... Though from his anecdotes, mostly from the other side.)
I once built a ridiculously impractical scrollmaster wizard/empty hand monk who had this great backstory. The best part was that I could use anything as a weapon, even creating weapons with my mind.
Let's see. A level 1 wizard with Intelligence 8 gets:
a) a familiar for the backpack, giving a bonus like a Skill Focus
b) Scribe Scroll which doesn't allow creating wizard scrolls here, but might help with spells from other classes - or spell-like abilities
c) one basic school bonus:
* resistance 5 to an element (Abjuration)
* create a dagger for throwing, 2/day (Conjuration: Creation)
* Dimension Door 5 feet, 2/day (Conjuration: Teleportation), basically a second 5-foot-step
* +1 initiative (Divination)
* roll a bonus d20, 2/day (Divination: Foresight)
* +2 Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate (Enchantment)
* change element of damage of an evocation spell, 2/day (Evocation: Admixture), not relevant in this case though
* +1 Strength / Dexterity / Constitution (Transmutation), doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses, but can increase a secondary odd stat (e.g. Con 13) to an even one
* get a bite / claw / gore (!) attack for 2 rounds a day (Transmutation: Shapechange), slightly improving your damage output
d) +2 will save (level 20 monk provides 'only' +1.8 saves per level)
e) access to wizard class skills, mainly all Knowledge skills
So you basically get three weak feats plus two more small bonuses. Which seems ok for a level 1 dip.
Might finally be a good time to use the gun mage or seige mage archetypes...
Of course, UMD in and of itself isn't a bad idea. Not a class skill for a monk but some folks find it worth the investment anyway. Better than what you lose out on by the dip, I think--remember, that's -1 hit point (d8 to d6), -2 skill points (3 for monk, 1 for wizard), stalling out on Fort and Reflex saves, lose a level of BAB advancement (as a 3/4 BAB too), and no monk ability advancements.