So, someone brought a maxed Acrobatics goblin Wizard to my table a few days ago. He used Roll With It to effectively become invincible against all of the monsters in the content.
If you're too lazy to click on the feat, I'll sum it up with: when hit by an enemy, as immediate action: make an Acrobatic check of 5 + damage taken, if you beat the check you convert the damage into movement at a rate of 1-ft per damage. By doing this you negate all damage, and your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the enemy that hit you.
Basically, this moves you out of range of enemies with full attacks even if they are pounce monsters. The only catch is that it only works against melee attacks, and while it has a stipulation about you taking damage if you hit a wall you get to choose what direction you go (thereby making it so that you will probably never hit a wall).
In other words: this feat, which requires no feat-tax by the way, is better for a caster than going into Crane Wing.
In short, this feat makes it so you get to play by different rules than more or less everyone else in the game. It makes Full Attacks pointless as well.
To point this out, the feat can be defeated by raw damage, but it is an all or nothing feat: if the monster does enough damage to bypass the feat then you might be in 1-shot territory. The feat can be circumvented with Ranged Attacks and magic, but we're looking at a single feat here, not a class feature.
Compare +1 dodge bonus from Dodge or +4 vs AOOs with Mobility to effective immunity against most monsters with Roll With It. The comparison just doesn't work.
Add in that most monsters tend to have multiple attacks to constitute their dpr vs having a single attack that could turn them into a charging death machine, and you start to see the problem.
So, what should I do here? I'm thinking of just banning the feat since if I have to choose between banning a feat or updating the entire meta to accommodate a single feat into play, I'm going to choose to just ban the feat.
However, it wouldn't be hard to just assume that all enemies have throwing axes. The point is: a goblin with this feat cannot be effectively threatened by melee oriented enemies.
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Wow, did you not present the rest of the wording of the feat:
For example, if you would have taken 6 points of damage, you would convert that into 6 feet of movement. You immediately move in a straight line in a direction of your choice this number of feet (rounded up to the nearest 5-foot-square), halting if you reach a distance equal to your actual speed. If this movement would make you strike an object or creature of your size or larger, the movement immediately ends, you take 1d4 points of damage, and fall prone in that square. This involuntary movement provokes attacks of opportunity normally if you move through threatened squares, but does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature that struck you in the first place.
You are staggered for 1 round after you attempt to use this feat, whether or not you succeed.
Makes a HUGE difference.
Notice that this feat has some serious shortcomings too. It can only be once per turn, since it is an immediate action, the movement provokes AoO, and you are staggered the next round. So you just need to make sure you have two enemies on your wizard and you're fine. Still, a very original and intelligent use of a feat. Frankly, I'd reward such ingenuity, not ban it.
There is a second catch, in that you're staggered once it hits, but for a Wizard or other spellcaster with mostly standard action spells it is pretty good all the same. Any other class would find it useless, or a lot less useful at least.
I'd house rule a certain level of constiution or fortitude to go with it, making it more difficult for squishy casters to grab. Except a Racial Heritage using Half-Orc Goblin-Blooded Scarred Witch Doctor.
Wow, did you not present the rest of the wording of the feat:
Makes a HUGE difference.For example, if you would have taken 6 points of damage, you would convert that into 6 feet of movement. You immediately move in a straight line in a direction of your choice this number of feet (rounded up to the nearest 5-foot-square), halting if you reach a distance equal to your actual speed. If this movement would make you strike an object or creature of your size or larger, the movement immediately ends, you take 1d4 points of damage, and fall prone in that square. This involuntary movement provokes attacks of opportunity normally if you move through threatened squares, but does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature that struck you in the first place.
You are staggered for 1 round after you attempt to use this feat, whether or not you succeed.
If there is a single big monster or one monster attacking each person it makes no difference. By the time the attacker can act again, the feat has refreshed. The Stagger is punishing for more or less anyone who isn't dependent on using standard actions to attack.
Notice that this feat has some serious shortcomings too. It can only be once per turn, since it is an immediate action, the movement provokes AoO, and you are staggered the next round. So you just need to make sure you have two enemies on your wizard and you're fine. Still, a very original and intelligent use of a feat. Frankly, I'd reward such ingenuity, not ban it.
I use everything against the players that they can use against the monsters. I wonder how they will react to encountering 4 goblin evokers that half the team can't hurt.
Make a skill check to avoid one hit. Kinda like Mounted Combat, except four things:
1. The feat starts off better, since attack rolls start out higher than damage rolls, then becomes critically worse around 6th level when damage starts getting big. With great power comes great vulnerability.
2. You're defending yourself, rather than a mount. On the other hand, it's much more limited in where it can be used, since it can knock you into walls or off cliffs, and is literally worse than useless if you get cornered (which is going to happen quite often if you use the feat every round).
3. You are much more likely to see a cavalier or paladin with uber Ride than a wizard with uber Acrobatics.
4. The feat offers absolutely no protection against ranged attacks.
I like your player. His character sounds hilarious.
I wonder how they will react to encountering 4 goblin evokers that half the team can't hurt.
Step One: Hit goblin evoker.
Step Two: Watch goblin evoker fly into wall.Step Three: Hit goblin evoker.
Step Four: Repeat from Step Two onwards.
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punting goblins for fun and profit sounds great! And if they hit something they take damage and fall prone too, making easier on the next round.
Honestly I think I will use this against some level 1 or 2 PCs. I think it would be an absolute hoot!
I wonder how they will react to encountering 4 goblin evokers that half the team can't hurt.Step One: Hit goblin evoker.
Step Two: Watch goblin evoker fly into wall.
Step Three: Hit goblin evoker.
Step Four: Repeat from Step Two onwards.
Step Three.five: Laugh and laugh
I mean honestly I think I'll use this for a "boss" fight. Four first level goblin evokers that the PCs get to literally whack around.
Heck I think it'll be a carni game at my next festival after that too:
Huckster: "Whack the goblin folks! How far can you make him fly! Step right up and whack the goblin! Just 5 silver! IF he goes 25 meters you get 2 gold! If he goes 50 you get 5! Whack the goblin here!"
Just give him an open field and watch the players have a field day.
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I'm considering making this the bossmonster at the end. An incredibly annoying goblin who cackles and taunts the adventurers as he is harmlessly launched around.
Then someone shoots him. :(
Lets see, skill focus acrobatics, a class with acrobatics as a skill, acrobatic, tree runner trait...
Acrobat Rogue archetype means a +2 when not wearing armor...
With 3 points and two feats that's a +3(skill points) +3(class bonus) +3(skill focus) +4(tree runner) + 4 (dexterity modifier) +2(acrobatic) +2(competence from archetype)= +21 on his roll.
With an 10 on the roll that's 31 points of damage negated for 5 squares of distance.
Definitely in the realm of a carni game!
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One of our players wanted to make a goblin pouncing barbarian with roll with it.
Step one: Party fighter hits gobo, sends him flying toward the enemy.
Step two: staggered Gobo charges (you can half charge if limited to a single action. Since he is charging, pounce goes off and he gets a full round of attacks.
Step three: Enemy he charged hits him, sending him flying back toward party.
Gobo pong!
(Note: I haven't looked at the rules to see if all of this actually works. It was a concept peace, and isn't going to get built, so I laughed appreciatively and nodded my head. Honestly, it is too funny to want to ruin it by finding out it doesn't work.)
Goblin Tennis!
Hot Goblin!
As a GM, I would make exceptions to the "only once per round" when dramatically or comedically appropriate. This is a set-in-stone rule I will use for every campaign I run. I am putting this down in writing now. This will be possible:
Step One: Goblin gets hit by gnoll, is sent flying.
Step Two: Mid-flight, AoO from another gnoll hits goblin, sends him flying in a different direction.
Step Three: Mid-flight, AoO from a third gnoll hits goblin, sends him flying in a different direction.
Step Four: Mid-flight, goblin barfs on fourth gnoll before it can try an AoO, then crashes into a wall.
Oh, also, 4 HP goblin? He goes down the first time he hits a wall. I didn't even register that at first. What kind of wizard has a -2 Con?!
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New feat:
Teamwork, Combat
Prerequisites: Point blank shot, Far shot
Benefit: When you hit a goblin with the roll with it feat and the goblin uses the feat you can aim him at an enemy dealing 1d4 plus your strength modifier in damage. Instead you can hit him at an ally with this feat. That ally can make an Attack of Opportunity on the goblin to redirect him, increasing the damage by 1d4 and their strength modifier. The goblin has a range increment of 20 feet, and this uses the total distance he travels from when he used the roll with it feat. Regardless of the number of times the goblin is redirected he only takes the normal 1d4 damage and being knocked prone when he hits his enemy.
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As a GM, I would make exceptions to the "only once per round" when dramatically or comedically appropriate. This is a set-in-stone rule I will use for every campaign I run. I am putting this down in writing now. This will be possible:
Step One: Goblin gets hit by gnoll, is sent flying.
Step Two: Mid-flight, AoO from another gnoll hits goblin, sends him flying in a different direction.
Step Three: Mid-flight, AoO from a third gnoll hits goblin, sends him flying in a different direction.
Step Four: Mid-flight, goblin barfs on fourth gnoll before it can try an AoO, then crashes into a wall.Oh, also, 4 HP goblin? He goes down the first time he hits a wall. I didn't even register that at first. What kind of wizard has a -2 Con?!
A goblin wizard, duh.
Wait...a wizard? As in uses a spellbook! THE WORDS ARE BEING STOLEN OUT OF HIS HEAD! KILL THE WRITER BEFORE THE DISEASE SPREADS!
He provokes as normal, so you provoke when you use the feat at all. You are leaving their threatened square if they swing at you.
Specifically states you don't provoke from the one that hit you...
At some point, this starts sounding like a useless feat.
When you start seeing 20+ damage (which could happen fairly early if you face greatsword wielding barbarians), then it will be hard for you to find a straight line that DOESN'T hit something.
This feat is great in a featureless void where you could roll forever...but in any kind of dungeon or city environment, you will very easily find yourself cornered. If you are in the middle of a 50x50 room, that means you can't take a 30 damage hit without being knocked prone (and you are still staggered, mind you). At best, you are being ping ponged from one side of that room to the other.
I can see how it is better to have this feat than not have it if you have the room...but it is not some cure all solution.
A major potential plus, I think: Use Acrobatics to cast defensively! ;D
Stupid goblin rolls away... just going to grab it... and squeeze.
You immediately move in a straight line in a direction of your choice this number of feet (rounded up to the nearest 5-foot-square), halting if you reach a distance equal to your actual speed.
So 30ft without any class or feet mods, Interpret as you will but you wont need 50ftx50ft when you only roll your speed, add armor and thats down to 20ft easy.
Goblin Magus anyone?
This seems more like a failure of the GM to adapt more than anything.
Things you can do:
1) If the total movement is only 5ft (which at low levels I assume is mostly the amount enemies are doing), the enemy can simply 5ft step forward and continue his attack routine.
2) If the total movement is more than 5ft, and the enemy's first attack was blocked, it can convert the full attack action into a standard+move and simply cover the distance. That's now a staggered and potentially prone goblin wizard with a dude standing right next to him.
3) Just throw a ranged weapon. He has 4 HP.
4) Grapple or trip instead of attacking. What's the gobbo wizard going to do? AOO? Please.
5) Use 5ft step or just provoke to move around the gobbo before attacking to ensure he rolls in the worst possible (read: wall or another enemy) direction.
6) Don't use single enemy encounters. Seriously. They're bad DMing. Two flanking enemies totally defeats this tactic. If the gobbo is using this to avoid damage from a single enemy in a group of enemies... what's the problem, exactly? He's hardly 'breaking the game' by dodging damage 1/round from some mook.
Shame on you for knee-jerking to something that's not even useful past level 1, OP. Let him have his moment in the sun.
I think this feat is a lot more powerful than some are giving it credit for. With no AoO from the hitter, choice of direction, a maximum distance, and a very easy check, this is a huge amount of damage negation with very little side-effects. Even at 7th level most attacks are in the 10-20 range of damage or lower. It's not the 4 hp goblin you need to worry about.
That said, GM chose to allow goblins and should think hard before banning the feat *now*.
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Yeah, goblins and their feats are designed to be kind of manic and crazy. The feat looks like it can be very useful, though even one on one it can be dealt with by smart opponents, especially opposing casters and ranged attackers
Oh, but "shame on you" is a bit much. It may be a knee-jerk reaction, and it might be a mistake to ban it, but its not exactly shame worthy
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So, if you were to take a reach weapon with this and say...use your staggered action to re-position each round, you could use your acrobatics to constantly be moving around the battlefield and attack people whenever they got close.
And they would need to get close, since they need to close the distance from Roll With It to try and attack you: at which point you roll away again and they need to get closer.
This would be the best Stage Combat encounter ever. Just an annoying goblin rolling everywhere one v oneing the party and laughing.
Hey. One more thought.
Hey there.
Y'know what else shuts down melee? And I mean actually shuts it down, not "renders slightly inconvenient if you're alone and kinda stupid".
Got any ideas?
I'll give you a hint.
It starts with "air"...
...and ends with "walk".
It's only available around seventh level (which means 3rd-4th level parties could easily be encountering it), barring scrolls, but it does the exact same thing except better in every possible way.
to the op.
at first i was thinking this has a simple tactical solution:
get him into a 5 ft corador and get him flanked. But the high acrobatics mean he can virtuly move through the flank and get to the other side.(although not as part of the feat movment)
this is where i used an OLD (3.0 material source book old,the fighter & monk book) rule.
basicly high acrobatics character can move all around the field unstopped. the rule, which i like calling the Wushu rule as it has been very nicly shown in many wushu films( that tiger\dragon movie for exmaple) says the following - when you use acrobatics to ignore attack of opertunity and or move through some1 else area. if said some1 also has ranks in acrobatics he can use an oppsed rule to prevent you from sucicding - if he wins he get an aoo if you move in his threatend area, or if you tried to move though his area he prevent it.
Tumbling through an opponent's square is extremely difficult and risky, especially at mid to high levels.. If you fail, you're hit by an AoO and don't budge an inch.
If I have to make two challenging Acrobatics checks to avoid a single attack, it's not that powerful a tactic.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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4) Grapple or trip instead of attacking. What's the gobbo wizard going to do? AOO? Please.
This, definitely!
I especially like grapple. I imagine an ogre picking the goblin wizard up, rolling him into a ball, and bouncing him into the ground while giggling.
"Hee hee, me like new toy!"
I wonder if effects that reduce his speed (like tripping) would modify this ability at all? Launching him five feet doesn't do much to stop your full attack. ;P
You could be attacked, bounce away and get your range back again.
Vital strike archer, maybe? Not the most optimal, but it could work.
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At some point, this starts sounding like a useless feat.
When you start seeing 20+ damage (which could happen fairly early if you face greatsword wielding barbarians), then it will be hard for you to find a straight line that DOESN'T hit something.
This feat is great in a featureless void where you could roll forever...but in any kind of dungeon or city environment, you will very easily find yourself cornered. If you are in the middle of a 50x50 room, that means you can't take a 30 damage hit without being knocked prone (and you are still staggered, mind you). At best, you are being ping ponged from one side of that room to the other.
I can see how it is better to have this feat than not have it if you have the room...but it is not some cure all solution.
Well, I'm not sure it becomes useless.
That same wizard would take 30 HP damage from that hit you described. Now he rolls with it, to a spot way out of reach of that big monster (no full-attack from that guy!), hits a wall, falls prone and is staggered, and might even take 4 damage. So he saved himself at least 26 damage (that's HUGE!!!!), even more if that was the first attack of a full attack, he repositions to a safer spot, and now he simply casts his spells from prone at no penalty at all.
That sounds all-good to me. All good, as in, the opposite of useless.
Not overpowered, for sure, but definitely far from useless.
At some point, this starts sounding like a useless feat.
When you start seeing 20+ damage (which could happen fairly early if you face greatsword wielding barbarians), then it will be hard for you to find a straight line that DOESN'T hit something.
This feat is great in a featureless void where you could roll forever...but in any kind of dungeon or city environment, you will very easily find yourself cornered. If you are in the middle of a 50x50 room, that means you can't take a 30 damage hit without being knocked prone (and you are still staggered, mind you). At best, you are being ping ponged from one side of that room to the other.
I can see how it is better to have this feat than not have it if you have the room...but it is not some cure all solution.
Well, I'm not sure it becomes useless.
That same wizard would take 30 HP damage from that hit you described. Now he rolls with it, to a spot way out of reach of that big monster (no full-attack from that guy!), hits a wall, falls prone and is staggered, and might even take 4 damage. So he saved himself at least 26 damage (that's HUGE!!!!), even more if that was the first attack of a full attack, he repositions to a safer spot, and now he simply casts his spells from prone at no penalty at all.
That sounds all-good to me. All good, as in, the opposite of useless.
Not overpowered, for sure, but definitely far from useless.
And if you hit into an enemy, you are dropped prone, take a -4 to AC against melee, and you are in a situation where you can't get very far away without eating an AoO, which could also do that 30 damage.
And even if you just hit a wall, the enemies know you are knocked prone, and they can go towards the wall, waiting for you to try to get up.
Wizards are backline characters. One of their defenses is having several characters to block charge lanes and generally make getting to the back a problem since it would leave them in easy reach of at least half the party. If the wizard is getting knocked around someone's entire movement speed, it might take several turns to get to him and back him up.
I know this whole situation is not always the case, particularly since you can choose directions...but it still means there are going to be situations where eating the attack seems more appealing. I will say that this feat is at least situational.
I think it's an awesome and funny character concept that should not be punished. You will find other ways to inflict damage on the character. On the other hand, you only have yourself to blame, for allowing goblin PCs.
I'm in agreement with all the comments that this isn't a broken feat. If you have an intelligent creature attacking this Goblin, it wouldn't take more than two failed attempts to hit it for the creature to try a Combat Maneuver instead, which won't trigger the feat. It's up to you to diversify and make sure this isn't always the best option - put the group in a narrow space, where moving around isn't as easy, give a creature some natural reach, and have it laugh when the Goblin thinks he's safe, throw a net at him, for crying out loud.
If you truly think this feat NEEDS to be checked, here's the best fix I can think of: for every 5' square traveled using this space, a creature takes 1d4 points of non-lethal damage. Now it's no longer spammable - at least not without much greater teamwork coming from the party healer.
Combat maneuvres are still good vs this guy and so is moving around him and knockout him in to all your minons. Or figthing on a ledge. Combats Against one enemy is no good in PF even with out this feat. I see no Reason to Ban this feat.
I Think a pouncing goblin barbarian with this feat would be amazing and fun:)
I have loved this feat from the minute I heard of it, and I really really wish I made a character with it before taking over as my group's GM...
I agree, a pouncer would be fun, although I think an unchained rogue with the dagger master and scout archetypes would more suit the goblin's strengths, especially with that nice +4 dex just waiting to be applied to damage. That racial +4 and size +4 to stealth are just fun at low levels.
Every single round:
Player "I charge. Sneak attack for umpteen damage!"
GM "He full-attacks...first hit for...."
Player "I go flying back out of range of the rest of the hits. My turn again? Oh, I charge. Sneak attack..."
EDIT - Well, that is if you can find a way to get up from prone as a free action, being, you know, staggered and all...