Witch Familiar Questions

[JaC381]

1) The section on one familiar teaching spells to another in the APG says "If a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains
its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it
is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its
spells to another, subject to GM discretion." What if the witch is raised after 24 hours, do the spells come back? I'd think so RAI, but RAW it is unclear. Does the familiar lose its Int and special abilities after 24 hours as well? What about if it is dismissed?

2) Regarding the Synergist witch archetype from the Familiar Folio, what happens if the witch dies while merged with her familiar? Do they both die and stay merged, separate and both die, or separate but the familiar still lives? If they stay merged, can they be raised with a single spell?

[Scaffold Kane]

1) The familiar forgets its spells. I'm of the opinion that the spells would need to be replaced as per these rules:

SRD wrote:

If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).

2) It's a standard action for the witch to unmeld from the familiar and the ability makes no statement concerning the familiar's ability to unmeld, so even if the familiar isn't technically 'dead' since it can't be targeted, it's certainly lost. Which, incidentally, sounds like a much worse fate.

Hope that helps.

[Weirdo]

Scaffold Kane wrote:

2) It's a standard action for the witch to unmeld from the familiar and the ability makes no statement concerning the familiar's ability to unmeld, so even if the familiar isn't technically 'dead' since it can't be targeted, it's certainly lost. Which, incidentally, sounds like a much worse fate.

Given that the familiar isn't dead, though, I think that if the witch were Raised then the he/she would be able to unmeld the familiar unharmed.

[Skylancer4]

Weirdo wrote:

Scaffold Kane wrote:

2) It's a standard action for the witch to unmeld from the familiar and the ability makes no statement concerning the familiar's ability to unmeld, so even if the familiar isn't technically 'dead' since it can't be targeted, it's certainly lost. Which, incidentally, sounds like a much worse fate.

Given that the familiar isn't dead, though, I think that if the witch were Raised then the he/she would be able to unmeld the familiar unharmed.

But once the witch is dead, the familiar essentially stops being a familiar due to loss of whatever bond existed. Which would leave the creature effectively dead no?

[JaC381]

Reformatted and slightly expanded question list:

The section on one familiar teaching spells to another in the APG says "If a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its spells to another, subject to GM discretion."

1)What if the witch is raised after 24 hours, do the spells come back? I'd think so RAI, but RAW it is unclear.
2)Does the familiar lose its Int and special abilities after 24 hours as well? What about if it is dismissed, does it revert to a nonsapient animal if it was one originally?
3)Does the familiar retain its spells known if it is the one that dies and is brought back?

4) Regarding the Synergist witch archetype from the Familiar Folio, what happens if the witch dies while merged with her familiar? Do they both die and stay merged, separate and both die, or separate but the familiar still lives? If they stay merged, can they be raised with a single spell?

[Skylancer4]

1) The other side of that is, the witch has specific rules about losing spells if the familiar is lost. If the witch dies, the familiar is essentially lost as well. This is no different than a wizard dying and the spell book being lost. This is also why smart witch will get a stone familiar if they are truly worried about such a situation.

2) Search the forums for posts about that, basically it comes down to "Figure it out with your GM."

3) I don't see why not, you'd be spending a good amount of gold on a resurrection or raise dead spell, so it might not be worth it. See above about Stone Familiar.

4) As per my previous post, once the master is dead, the bond will break and then creature will stop being a familiar. A creature trapped inside a dead body... Isn't going to end well.

[Weirdo]

If a living familiar loses its spells 24 hours after the master's death, wouldn't a stone familiar also lose those spells?

Is it really the intent for a familiar to permanently lose all their spells any time the witch dies and is not raised within 24 hours? I believe the intent within the APG was to allow witches to potentially get spells from a defeated NPC witch in the same way a wizard can take a foe's spellbook.

Skylancer4 wrote:

The other side of that is, the witch has specific rules about losing spells if the familiar is lost. If the witch dies, the familiar is essentially lost as well. This is no different than a wizard dying and the spell book being lost.

I have never seen a wizard die and lose their spellbook. I expect it could happen if the body is lost or else destroyed in a way that also destroys their gear, but I've never seen it. In fact I've never seen a wizard permanently lose their spellbook at all. Temporarily taken, yes, but it's always recovered soon. From the boards I've gathered that targeting spellbooks is usually considered a "jerk GM" move. Witches' familiars are already in more direct danger than spellbooks and it's doubly costly - like a wizard losing both familiar and spellbook at the same time. Does it really make sense to add an additional penalty on the witch's death?

[Skylancer4]

The stone familiar is an item, it can't "die" and isn't part of the class ability or bonded in anyway to the witch, so wouldn't be affected by their death.

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it cannot/does not happen.

It is like saying a video game is great because you never have a problem with it, but many people say it is buggy and it crashes when they try to play it.

The witch has a creature for a spell book, they always have the restriction built in and called out. Enforcing it isn't a "jerk" move. You know about it, it is detailed in the class write-up. You should plan accordingly.

[JaC381]

Skylancer4 wrote:

3) I don't see why not, you'd be spending a good amount of gold on a resurrection or raise dead spell, so it might not be worth it. See above about Stone Familiar.

Remember, replacing a witch familiar costs 500gp per witch level instead of 200gp per level for wizards (APG 69), and Raise Animal Companion is only 1000gp. If you're above level 2, raising is your best move costwise......but more than that, a witch's familiar is often a much bigger part of the character's story/life/RP than a wizard's touch spell delivery vehicle. I'd think most characters, in character, would like to get them raised - maybe even more so than other actual party members.

[Skylancer4]

I agree getting the familiar back at lower levels with the spell would definitely be the way to go cost wise, but 1) Time limit, in days. 2) You need the body of the familiar to bring it back.

Two very real limitations at lower levels.

Teleport isn't an option typically so travel time to someplace you can hopefully get the spell cast could take you past the time limit, assuming the party is "OK" with dropping everything they are doing right that moment to go get your familiar back. Not always an option in time sensitive missions/adventures.

If your familiar is dead, chances are something went very very wrong. So wrong, recovering it's body is possibly not option.

At higher levels the stone familiar is a cheap safety net. You buy one because you can easily afford it and it reduces the hassle of death (yours and the familiar).