Dual Identity


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


First off, very interesting and thematic ability - definitely one way to combat the "scry & fry" tactics so often lamented on the boards.

A few thoughts:
1. You may want to consider a way to extend the ability to cover any familiars (such as that gained by the Warlock Talent) or animal companions, otherwise it's not much of a defense if a smart opponent can just scry on your familiar rather than you.

2. You may want to address how other classes from multi-classing affect or interact with the social vs. vigilante classes, especially for classes with alignment restrictions or codes, such as a paladin.
(Because yet another reason for "the paladin falls" threads is probably not what you're looking for. Well, OK, maybe Stephen-the-anti-paladin-designer, but everyone else...)

-TimD


I have a hard time accepting the dual alignment rule. It makes the character seem like he or she has Multiple Personality Disorder rather than a drive to right wrongs or exact vengeance or the like.

Shadow Lodge

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I have a hard time accepting the dual alignment rule. It makes the character seem like he or she has Multiple Personality Disorder rather than a drive to right wrongs or exact vengeance or the like.

are you saying batman doesn't suffer from multiple personality disorder?


Ok, Batman might. But I don't think most superheroes do, and most of them are referred to as vigilantes. It's a matter of opinion, really.

Shadow Lodge

I see nothing in the classes description that says the two alignments cannot be the same.

However look at it this way, most of the things a vigilante does are not legal, but they have the desire to appear to observe the laws in their alter egos.


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I think it's to suggest the idea that most of the time, the "Civilian" side has to present opinions that he doesn't necessarily agree with just to "fit in". If you took someone like Batman or V or Rorsharch out of their costumes and had them walk around saying all the things they actually believe, it would kind of give it away. My feeling is that it mostly is there to add to the roleplay aspects.

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I have a hard time accepting the dual alignment rule. It makes the character seem like he or she has Multiple Personality Disorder rather than a drive to right wrongs or exact vengeance or the like.

Your alignment is defined by your actions. You take very different actions as both roles.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I read a supers-based short story once that basically said, "You think I put on this outfit and go hand-to-hand with thugs who use guns every night because I'm sane?!"


Dual Identity is basically a means for the Vigilante to fool alignment detection from level 1 through mundane means. What Antipaladin is going to suspect his archnemesis to be someone who doesn't ping as good?

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I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.

So you want it to be a worthless ability at high levels? Got it.


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RainyDayNinja wrote:
I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.

If your nemesis at 1st level is a 20th level character, I think you've got bigger problems to worry about. You could frankly use all the help you could get at that point.


TimD wrote:


2. You may want to address how other classes from multi-classing affect or interact with the social vs. vigilante classes, especially for classes with alignment restrictions or codes, such as a paladin.
(Because yet another reason for "the paladin falls" threads is probably not what you're looking for. Well, OK, maybe Stephen-the-anti-paladin-designer, but everyone else...)

Yes, this needs to be defined by the rules.

My favorite interpretation would be: since it can fool divination magic, it can also fool the gods. So you can be a fallen paladin / ex-cleric by day, and a paladin/cleric by night (or vice versa).


Cthulhudrew wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.
If your nemesis at 1st level is a 20th level character, I think you've got bigger problems to worry about. You could frankly use all the help you could get at that point.

Think of a Vigilante 1, Something-else 19 versus a 20th level character.

The way it is now, you essentially get the full effect of this ability with a 1 level dip.


TimD wrote:
You may want to address how other classes from multi-classing affect or interact with the social vs. vigilante classes, especially for classes with alignment restrictions or codes, such as a paladin.

But it does. It says you cannot take things like classes with alignment restrictions unless both of your identities have alignments that work with it.


Oh, yes you are right. Missed that at first glance. But still, technically that only prevents you from taking more Paladin levels after becoming a LN/LG vigilante. It doesn't prevent you from becoming such a vigilante when you already have those Paladin levels - and it doesn't spell out whether you become an Ex-Paladin in one or both of your identities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.
So you want it to be a worthless ability at high levels? Got it.

I agree with Arachnofiend. I don't see the secret identity thing being an issue at low levels, and a high level caster is going to have plenty of ways he can potentially foil his vigilante nemesis without having to worry about auto-undetectability.

Mostly though...the Vigilante is PERFECT for building villainous characters who operate behind the scene. Keeping them undetectable from scry and similar spells leads to a lot better plot and adventure opportunities for PCs than having it be easily negated.

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MMCJawa wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
I gotta say, I don't like the auto-undetectability of the secret identity. A level 20 diviner shouldn't be stymied by a first-level ability. I think something like a caster level check of 15+level would be more appropriate.
So you want it to be a worthless ability at high levels? Got it.

I agree with Arachnofiend. I don't see the secret identity thing being an issue at low levels, and a high level caster is going to have plenty of ways he can potentially foil his vigilante nemesis without having to worry about auto-undetectability.

Mostly though...the Vigilante is PERFECT for building villainous characters who operate behind the scene. Keeping them undetectable from scry and similar spells leads to a lot better plot and adventure opportunities for PCs than having it be easily negated.

True, so what about a caster level check of 20+level? That way it would be impossible to scry on a vigilante of a higher level than your own (unless you invest in CL boosting feats on your divinations)

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I very much like the flavor of dual identity, but I'm perplexed. How can an extraordinary ability foil even the most powerful divinations?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nikosandros wrote:
I very much like the flavor of dual identity, but I'm perplexed. How can an extraordinary ability foil even the most powerful divinations?

Unless you're in the habit of pitting 1st-3rd level vigilantes against 17th level archmages and demigods, I'm not sure what the point of your question is. Most people including most of the vigilante's foes aren't going to have access to the level of magic needed to make the abiltiy irrelevant.


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i dont see the problem really.

a lvl1 wizard casting vanish and staying still is impossible to notice by a lvl20 fighter

so "how can a lvl1 feature be more powerful than something done by a lvl20 character" is not something new.

also, who cares, diviners can rule the world, let's leave a single thing they are unable to notice in the game.


shroudb wrote:

i dont see the problem really.

a lvl1 wizard casting vanish and staying still is impossible to notice by a lvl20 fighter

so "how can a lvl1 feature be more powerful than something done by a lvl20 character" is not something new.

also, who cares, diviners can rule the world, let's leave a single thing they are unable to notice in the game.

Exactly. Martials FINALLY get something that no caster can beat, let's not ruin it for them.


Arachnofiend wrote:
shroudb wrote:

i dont see the problem really.

a lvl1 wizard casting vanish and staying still is impossible to notice by a lvl20 fighter

so "how can a lvl1 feature be more powerful than something done by a lvl20 character" is not something new.

also, who cares, diviners can rule the world, let's leave a single thing they are unable to notice in the game.

Exactly. Martials FINALLY get something that no caster can beat, let's not ruin it for them.

I find the fact that this train of thought is common rather depressing

I don't necessarily disagree with it - I tend to use a similar thought process when deciding on if and how to create house rules, but it is still incredibly depressing.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don' t want to ruin it for them. I'm in favor of maintaining the ability. I would just like an in-game explanation on how it works.

Grand Lodge

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In game explanation:

You are so good at separating your life into two seperate personas, that when you take on one persona you (metaphysically) become a new different person. Divinations cannot target the other you, because at that time the other you simply ceases to exist. It is as if you can switch back and forth between two different souls. This also explains why the two souls can have different alignments, and why they are affected by spells based on their current alignment.

It is not as if you are pretending to be a different person, you are actually becoming a different person.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That's a very good explanation, but metaphysically changing into another person sounds like a supernatural ability to me, but I guess that supernatural carries too much rules baggage.


Nikosandros wrote:
That's a very good explanation, but metaphysically changing into another person sounds like a supernatural ability to me, but I guess that supernatural carries too much rules baggage.

Multiple personality disorder temporarily cured by an antimagic field

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The more I look at the Dual Identity, the more I don't like it.

An impenetrable disguise at level 1 is just too powerful. I'd be much more comfortable with extra bonuses to Disguise checks, SR or bonuses to saves against divinations, and things like that. The very existence of the class ability invalidates everything that has been used for hiding identities up until now.

Disguise checks? Nah, just take a one-level dip into Vigilante and save yourself the skill ranks.

Ring of Undetectable Alignment? Nope, just a one-level dip into Vigilante and you're good.

Roleplaying a believable alibi, making a Linguistics check to forge identity papers, developing accomplices to cover for you? Never mind all that, it's right on my character sheet. I automatically win!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nikosandros wrote:
I don' t want to ruin it for them. I'm in favor of maintaining the ability. I would just like an in-game explanation on how it works.

In the spirit of 4 color comics, it just does. All Superman does is slick his hair back and put on a pair of eyeglasses... and it's worked for almost a century now.

Grand Lodge

RainyDayNinja wrote:

The more I look at the Dual Identity, the more I don't like it.

An impenetrable disguise at level 1 is just too powerful. I'd be much more comfortable with extra bonuses to Disguise checks, SR or bonuses to saves against divinations, and things like that. The very existence of the class ability invalidates everything that has been used for hiding identities up until now.

Disguise checks? Nah, just take a one-level dip into Vigilante and save yourself the skill ranks.

Ring of Undetectable Alignment? Nope, just a one-level dip into Vigilante and you're good.

Roleplaying a believable alibi, making a Linguistics check to forge identity papers, developing accomplices to cover for you? Never mind all that, it's right on my character sheet. I automatically win!

Which is great right up till you need any ID *except* your secret ID, or need to infiltrate somewhere without all you class features being on a 5 minute lockdown that requires you to be unobserved to reactivate. Or you need to infiltrate a location that expects you to have an alignment more than one step away from your actual

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Possibly a workaround.
If someone is trying to use divination magics against the identity you are no in, they must make a caster level check against a DC of 10+vigilante level+wisdom mod, or fail to detect you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FLite wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:

The more I look at the Dual Identity, the more I don't like it.

An impenetrable disguise at level 1 is just too powerful. I'd be much more comfortable with extra bonuses to Disguise checks, SR or bonuses to saves against divinations, and things like that. The very existence of the class ability invalidates everything that has been used for hiding identities up until now.

Disguise checks? Nah, just take a one-level dip into Vigilante and save yourself the skill ranks.

Ring of Undetectable Alignment? Nope, just a one-level dip into Vigilante and you're good.

Roleplaying a believable alibi, making a Linguistics check to forge identity papers, developing accomplices to cover for you? Never mind all that, it's right on my character sheet. I automatically win!

Which is great right up till you need any ID *except* your secret ID, or need to infiltrate somewhere without all you class features being on a 5 minute lockdown that requires you to be unobserved to reactivate. Or you need to infiltrate a location that expects you to have an alignment more than one step away from your actual

The five minute "lockdown" gets much shorter at higher levels. As to the latter situation, you'd improvise just as yo uwould be when you were doing these kinds of things as a non-vigilante.

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