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Hey folks. It looks like I'm about to GM my very first long term campaign so a few random concerns have popped into my head. It boils down to two questions:
1. What are some very powerful/annoying builds you've come across as a player or GM? (i.e. summons focused casters clogging up the battle field)
2. How did you or the GM counterbalance the build? (anti-summoning magic, readied actions to force a concentration check, etc.)
I don't want to outright deny my players things they want to play, but I want to walk in prepared with compromises and/or an agenda in order to ensure everyone at the table has a good experience and not just the min/max'd shenaniganer.
Hey folks. It looks like I'm about to GM my very first long term campaign so a few random concerns have popped into my head. It boils down to two questions:
1. What are some very powerful/annoying builds you've come across as a player or GM? (i.e. summons focused casters clogging up the battle field)
2. How did you or the GM counterbalance the build? (anti-summoning magic, readied actions to force a concentration check, etc.)
I don't want to outright deny my players things they want to play, but I want to walk in prepared with compromises and/or an agenda in order to ensure everyone at the table has a good experience and not just the min/max'd shenaniganer.
Off the top of my hand I would be prepared for powerful archery builds, specifically the ranger. While not OP they are potent and can catch a DM off guard if he is not fully aware of the power archery brings in pathfinder. But it's simple enough to counter; weather, sundering, deflect arrows, etc.
Don't worry about it until you know what your players are going to be. Afterwards, if they prove to be too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party then you can adjust tactics to negate them some of the time. Just don't do it too much. You just want everyone to have a chance to shine.
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Watch out for summon-monster types -- they're not superlatively powerful but they can bog down gameplay. insist that the guy summoning monsters have all the statblocks conveniently to hand and run them fast and well.
No single tough monster is immune from one-shot knockouts. Have mooks! Or pairs of monsters. Single BBEGs don't work well in tabletop.
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I appreciate the general advice comments, but that's not the focus of this thread. I'm not a newbie GM and had already planned to do most of the advice that's been given. I made this thread partially as a fun thread to hear wacky builds and stories from games.
Edit: but again, I do appreciate everything that's already been posted. It's good to hear again.
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It depends a lot on the kind of game you are making tho. It is the general point.
A crit build could be very strong in a humanoid centered campaign, while totally useless in a campaign full of oozes, this sadly can't really help you much as a newbie gm. On top of it, you are bound to make mistakes, having misread a rule here and there, which might make an ability appears to be stronger than it is. It is okay, you learn and fix it.
Also some builds don't come online until a certain level, at level 1, something might seems totally okay but get very strong at a certain level. Ninjas for example are very strong between level 9 to 11, it is a sweet spot for them, as not many stuffs can counter their full invisibility + sneak attack combo. While it may seems very ridiculous, past level 11, most enemies have the proper senses to counter the ninja and he ends up feeling useless.
Any full caster + Dazing Spell
Only real counter is monsters with extremly high SR and even that is not really a problem.
Most players with this build will have a very simple play tree.
1.)Can I dazing spell it?
a.)If yes go to 2.
b.)If no go to 3.
2.)Does it have high SR?
a.)If yes go to 4.
b.)If no go to 5.
3.)Can I use any of my SR:No spells to handle it?
a.)If yes go to 6.
b.)If no go to 7.
4.)Use a Dweomer's Essence. Then go to step 5.
5.)Dazing Spell it!
6.)Use spell.
7.)What is the reason for my spells being completely ineffective?
a.) Antimagic field or some other mechanical reason. Go to step 8.
b.) GM Fiat, Go to step 9.
8.)Am I able to cast 9th's.
a.)If yes go to step 10.
b.)If no go to step 11.
9.)Do you enjoy MTP and mother may I?
a.)If yes, have fun.
b.)If no, table flip.
10.) Cast Aroden's Spellbane targeting the spells that are stopping you. Return to rampage.
11.) Use dispel/spell disruption/other counter to NPC's counter. Continue rampage.
Honestly there are not a lot of ways to deal with this short of fiat of just putting in lots of extra mobs so that the player can dazing fireball without ending the encounter.
This is of course leaving aside things like Occultist Arcanist, Blood Money, Planar Binding, Planar Ally, Plane shift + Gate, Candle of Invocation, Simulacrum, or any of the other ridiculous shenanigans that mid to high level casters can pull so as to not have to play the game any more, instead just having an I win button.
Yet again a lot of these things don't have counters except fiat.
I hope this helps. Good luck.
How do DMs deal with Emergency Force Sphere?
Immediate action, Immune to Dispel Magic/Antimagic Field, prevents melee and ranged attacks, prevents line of sight for spells, literally an anti "Rocks Fall, everyone dies" spell (seriously, read the description).
Short of Spell Sunder and other class specific anti-abjuration, how do you guys deal with it?
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Standard Divination Wizard. Go first, cast whatever battle ending spell they like. Relax.
There are endless powerful builds tbh, easiest thing to deal with any of them is just to tell the players at the start of the campaign that if people start trivialising the fights then you may need to, as a group, look at removing/fixing some abilities or spells.
That said, anyone who can focus their build down to just one stat is almost certainly going to kick ass. Paladin/Oracle builds using Cha and getting insane ACs, Finesse/Slashing Grace builds using Dex for everything, etc. Mostly though, decently built full casters of any sort are going to be the ones who throw you for a loop, sometimes that can be fun though :)
Long term, there's a beautiful build for evil characters using Cleric/Diabolist/Darkfire Adept that can summon full on Pit Fiends at level 16 with Grtr. Planar Ally... :D
One possibility to limit PC power is to not allow any classes with either full spell progression or full basic attack bonus. That would tend to favor versatility over power.
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How do DMs deal with Emergency Force Sphere?
Immediate action, Immune to Dispel Magic/Antimagic Field, prevents melee and ranged attacks, prevents line of sight for spells, literally an anti "Rocks Fall, everyone dies" spell (seriously, read the description).
Short of Spell Sunder and other class specific anti-abjuration, how do you guys deal with it?
Either make him keep it up, make him keep expending them to burn resources, or just ignore him and hit his party. Depends on what else the caster's bringing to the table really.
It is one of my favorite spells though. :D
Burrowing creatures are a GMs friend ;)
Burrowing creatures are a GMs friend ;)How do DMs deal with Emergency Force Sphere?
Immediate action, Immune to Dispel Magic/Antimagic Field, prevents melee and ranged attacks, prevents line of sight for spells, literally an anti "Rocks Fall, everyone dies" spell (seriously, read the description).
Short of Spell Sunder and other class specific anti-abjuration, how do you guys deal with it?
Either make him keep it up, make him keep expending them to burn resources, or just ignore him and hit his party. Depends on what else the caster's bringing to the table really.
It is one of my favorite spells though. :D
The spell gets really nasty when you use it with overland flight. Burrowing won't help that much in that case.
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You could fly if you like but since it's a 5' hemisphere rather than an actual sphere the bottom or top half (traditionally a dome is the upper half of a sphere so one might argue that the bottom would always be open) is now entirely open to archers, flying creatures, etc, almost strictly worse than having it on a solid surface no?
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I don't want to outright deny my players things they want to play, but I want to walk in prepared with compromises and/or an agenda in order to ensure everyone at the table has a good experience and not just the min/max'd shenaniganer.
There is a lot of room between "letting your players play what they want" and "letting your players use anything they want"
One of the things that I think is a strength of the Pathfinder ruleset, is that they have options that allow for quite a wide variety of play styles. There are things that I may want to allow in one campaign, but that I feel would be disruptive to or just doesn't fit with another campaign. When I GM, I try to communicate with my players as much as possible when they build characters. We discuss what they want their character to do, and possible ways to accomplish that. I try to be accomodating with what they want, but as the GM I retain final say on what sources they can use. If I see something as potentially causing a balance issue I may still allow it, with the caveat that I might make the player change it out later, or I might just say that they can't use it in this campaign.
My players haven't always been happy about my decisions, and there have been some long discussions about balance and flavor, and what we all want out of this game, but overall they respect that I am looking out for the best interests of our group's game. Now that may take a while for you to build that kind of trust if you are playing with new people. My advice is, be open-minded, but be firm on what you want to allow into the game you are running. If you aren't sure about someting, it's better to allow it on a "Trial Only" basis than to say yes and have to take it away later.
I know we have all heard it before but OP is always relative. In a game of all full casters who abuse Simulacrum and Blood Money nobody is OP or UP and any published adventures will be severely UP. In a game where everyone is 10 point buy Monks nobody is OP or UP and any published adventures are going to be OP for the group.
The only way to prevent problems is to get the players on the same page at the beginning.
I find it much easier to play hardball than softball, and would rather have all power builds. Judging from what people ask on the forums most GMs are the opposite though.
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I know we have all heard it before but OP is always relative. In a game of all full casters who abuse Simulacrum and Blood Money nobody is OP or UP and any published adventures will be severely UP. In a game where everyone is 10 point buy Monks nobody is OP or UP and any published adventures are going to be OP for the group.
The only way to prevent problems is to get the players on the same page at the beginning.
In home games you should make sure all the players agree to the level of Cheese to allow. In a good group it is not a problem to have everyone tune to the expected level.
In PFS games, it really matters on how much fun everyone is having. If one character is OP but everyone is cheering her on, the let it be. If the OP character is not allowing everyone else to do anything, then you need to get creative.
Leadership:
Has the same problems as Summoning Monsters. Bogs down the battlemap and combat resolving when 1 player is running several combatants.
Also pushes real SCs out of the spotlight when one player's cohort is not some fluff-thing staying at home, but joins on in adventuring. Effectively that player takes 2 turns in every combat, while the other players just take 1.
The best way to deal with OP concepts is know your players. Only run games for friends you trust. If you have friends who won't abuse powerful builds and content, you will have a much easier time running the game regardless of what they play. I had a GM let me play a homebrew four-armed multiweapon fighting magus. My current GM let me play a race and class that I designed. My GMs trusted me, and I respected them to not abuse my concepts. If you have a good enough friend, you can let them get away with a synthesist summoner that has the Leadership feat. And if their character does prove too powerful, they should be reasonable enough to tone things down and compromise. If you can't trust your players, you will have a miserable time no matter what they play.
I love being the summon X guy, but even being incredibly prepared, it still slows things down. I now never play it with a party size over 4 as that seems to be the breaking point.
If you just want a house rule to limit the summon X without getting rid of it altogether, then ban the summoning of multiples. The "bog" is mostly just related to summoning 1d3+1 of something with multiple attacks. Rolling 12 separate attacks on my first turn as early as level 3 may be fun for me, but not for everyone else.
I don't want to outright deny my players things they want to play, but I want to walk in prepared with compromises and/or an agenda in order to ensure everyone at the table has a good experience and not just the min/max'd shenaniganer.
The biggest advice I would give is twofold.
1) Keep the table moving. If you need to skip someone's turn because they're not ready, do so. If you need to make an on-the-spot ruling because a rule-lawyer is trying to cross-reference six paragraphs in five separate volumes, make the ruling and move on. Maintain control of the pace of the game and many of the abusive concepts don't happen.
2) Avoid cliche'd encounters. The most common complain about overpowered characters is that they can one-shot the boss. Well, yes. That's what arcane casters are supposed to do, which is why all those save-or-lose spells are in the book. The solution is not to have a boss, and instead have a group that works together as antagonists. This can be a boss with minions, this can be the evil league of evil, or this can be a horde of orcs.
Similarly, most of the overpowered builds rely on specific tactics, and any intelligent monster would know about those tactics as well. Sunder or disarm the barbarian so that he can't use his OP sword. Have minions hide in boltholes to come out and attack the casters from behind. Use illusions to hide difficult terrain that can trap the skirmishers' charge lanes. Make sure that whatever trick is being relied upon isn't reliable.
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I love being the summon X guy, but even being incredibly prepared, it still slows things down. I now never play it with a party size over 4 as that seems to be the breaking point.
If you just want a house rule to limit the summon X without getting rid of it altogether, then ban the summoning of multiples. The "bog" is mostly just related to summoning 1d3+1 of something with multiple attacks. Rolling 12 separate attacks on my first turn as early as level 3 may be fun for me, but not for everyone else.
That's actually what I was thinking about doing. I may limit people to one summon and one companion (familiar, cohort, mount, etc.) So glad to hear someone else thinking along the same lines.
A few more things:
1) Don't have all your encounters be the same _sort_ of thing. Make sure that some of them are challenges of different types. (E.g., crossing a rapid flooding stream in winter can be a problem even for mid-level characters if they don't have ranks in Swim. Sure, they can fly, but they get to expend spells or potions if they haven't got flying mounts or something like that.) Even if they're all fights, don't make them all the same sort of fight. Orcs shooting arrows from behind a wall are a different problem than orcs with polearms in a bunch are a different problem from orcs mounted on hippogriffs and trying to lasso the players into the air are a different problem from orcs who want to talk to the players about the wight that's moved into their cave network.
Fighting things close-up, fighting things at range, using skills instead of attack rolls, using the players' own brains (though don't be afraid to let them use, say, INT or WIS checks if they're getting baffled) -- there are many different types of things to do. And no player is going to be ready for all of them; make it clear to players that if they hyperspecialize sometimes they'll shine but they need to be prepared for multiple situations.
2) Don't be afraid to re-use a few particular types of monsters. One reason players get real good with their characters is that they're always playing _that one character_ and know in great detail and from experience what they can/can't do, and how to do it well. Using one particular type of monster lets you, the GM, get to know that one monster type well; all its tips and tactics, how its abilities work together, how to modify it to be much more effective with different feats or gear or tactics. And you learn how to roleplay it, how its society(/ies) function -- all of which makes, I think, for a much deeper and better gaming experience.
3) If the players are very effective, let them be so, but let their enemies learn about their tricks and put tactics into play to counter them.
4) Don't be afraid to GM-fiat something -- "Guys, this just isn't working; let me try something different". But say it after the session is over, and don't say it just because you're feeling frustrated that the encounter you planned to take 3 hours of game time took 5 minutes.
Hey folks. It looks like I'm about to GM my very first long term campaign so a few random concerns have popped into my head. It boils down to two questions:
1. What are some very powerful/annoying builds you've come across as a player or GM? (i.e. summons focused casters clogging up the battle field)
2. How did you or the GM counterbalance the build? (anti-summoning magic, readied actions to force a concentration check, etc.)
I don't want to outright deny my players things they want to play, but I want to walk in prepared with compromises and/or an agenda in order to ensure everyone at the table has a good experience and not just the min/max'd shenaniganer.
I would just be flexible. Don't go into combats with an in-stone idea of how the fight will progress. If a character is having too much success for key fights to be difficult for the group, change up how the enemies are combatting the PCs.
Don't pitch fights that the PCs will expect. Make them adapt and "Op" players will have to work around those challenges, rendering them less "Op."