i think we all can agree that shadows are just the worse....
Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds.
Strength Damage (Su)
A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
so, what would happen if your fellow pcs kill the shadow in the 1d4 rounds BEFORE you turn into a shadow under the killer shadows command?
would your corpse be left behind?
is resurrection completely out of the question?
I believe that you would still transform but have free will. However if you're friends manage to rez you first then you're good
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If the PC dies from shadow's strength drain, he's dead and coming back in 1d4 rounds as a shadow. If the original shadow died, PC is still dead and coming back as shadow.
Breath of Life won't help as it wasn't HP damage that killed PC. Lesser or regular Restoraton casted for 3 rounds (assuming GM rolled a 4 on 1d4 for create spawn) could arguably revive party member if abilty score damage is healed? I dunno, GM ruling on that.
Raise dead won't work. "A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell."
Resurrection would work if undead former PC is destroyed. "You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected."
And as long as small part of body is around (better with the sitation of shadows) you can use Resurrection. "So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level."
In addition to guarding the haunted ruins they lay claim to or serving more powerful undead capable of cowing them, shadows devote themselves to attacking any living creatures they encounter, draining their victims of all vitality with their chilling touch. Victims become weaker and weaker until they finally perish, but their suffering is only beginning. For as the victim of a shadow’s touch expires, its own shadow detaches from the corpse, taking on the same half-life as its killer, hungry for the essence of the living and operating under its killer’s command.
So the PC body sticks around.
You dead, you a shadow, but you mindless.
On second thought, Restoration definitely won't work. Constition damaged to 0 = dead and restoration won't help, neither should it with Strength.
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Breath of Life won't help as it wasn't HP damage that killed PC. Lesser or regular Restoraton casted for 3 rounds (assuming GM rolled a 4 on 1d4 for create spawn) could arguably revive party member if abilty score damage is healed? I dunno, GM ruling on that.
Yes, he didn't die form hit point damage, but, in the Glossary, under Death Attacks, it states that your hit points, unless already lower, become equal to your negative Con:
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So, if you cast breath of life on the dead one, raise his hit points above his negative Con, won't he lose the turns to Shadow part, as he is no longer dead, just helpless with a Str of 0?
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Irrelevant. He wasn't killed by hit point damage, but a death effect. Neither Breath of Life, nor Raise Dead will work.Breath of Life won't help as it wasn't HP damage that killed PC. Lesser or regular Restoraton casted for 3 rounds (assuming GM rolled a 4 on 1d4 for create spawn) could arguably revive party member if abilty score damage is healed? I dunno, GM ruling on that.Yes, he didn't die form hit point damage, but, in the Glossary, under Death Attacks, it states that your hit points, unless already lower, become equal to your negative Con:
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.So, if you cast breath of life on the dead one, raise his hit points above his negative Con, won't he lose the turns to Shadow part, as he is no longer dead, just helpless with a Str of 0?
It isn't a death effect.
Melee incorporeal touch +4 (1d6 Strength damage)
Strength Damage (Su) A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
Create Spawn (Su) A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds.
Negative energy effect, yes.
Death effect, not stated, so no.In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the creature takes a large amount of damage, which might cause it to die instantly.
Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
sooooo, we have a few different opinions. i guess the best way to proceed is to have the gm houserule? i think of a player with an invested character (7levels or higher) who gets drained by 2 greater shadows. let's assume that 5 other pcs can act immediately as their friend drops.
what options on the spot does the party have (hypothetically), with all resources, to save their friend?
is the only real option to appeal to the gm for a houseruling or miracle?
let's say your party is smart enough to know that their friend is about to spawn a shadow....stop/slow/bind/imprison/sanctify/ect.......
We actually recently had a huge thread about this
The arguments offered were that breath of life would still "jump start" you but then you would immediately die again because it doesn't restore your strength. You would need multiple breath of life spells while the restoration is cast, if this was to work at all.
Basically BoL would be CPR while they get everything else ready to actually bring you back.
Besides the lack of actual death effect, Raise Dead isn't likely to work because of the casting time, 1 minute, being way too long compared the the create spawn effect, 1d4 rounds.
Breath of Life wouldn't work because the condition ensuring PC is dead is still Str 0 via the Create Spawn ability. It's a supernatural ability so I'm gonna chalk that up as the reason why usual HP case ain't gonna work, despite the debate on whether HP > 0 despite an ability score effectively = 0 from ability damage/drain.
We actually recently had a huge thread about this
The arguments offered were that breath of life would still "jump start" you but then you would immediately die again because it doesn't restore your strength. You would need multiple breath of life spells while the restoration is cast, if this was to work at all.
Basically BoL would be CPR while they get everything else ready to actually bring you back.
Some people, myself included, argued that the "die if drained to 0" thing only applied when the attack was getting resolved i.e. getting killed is part of an instantaneous effect and is conditional on having 0 str* and thus once you get killed by it the ability's effects have been completely applied and you wouldn't get killed again after getting breath'd any more than you would take another burst of fire damage if a fireball killed you.
Check with your GM how they personally interpret it.
*Ignoring for the moment that shadows do str damage, which is it's own can of worms.
obviously the PC gets to play as a shadow now.
obviously the PC gets to play as a shadow now.
Now it's the GM's turn to cry.
Because it's not labeled as such. Really, it's that simple.As was pointed out, it is not a death effect, as such raise dead will work just fine (assuming you can somehow cast it before they actually become undead...difficult, but not impossible. Consecrate would do the trick)If something kills you and makes you an undead spawn, how can it NOT be a death effect?
This.
Death effects are effects that are called out as death effects.
I see it self labeling as a death effect. Normally a character whose strength is drained down to zero becomes helpless, not outright dead. When the shadow does it to you however, you not only die, but rise up as it's undead spawn. That pretty much screams death effect to me.Because it's not labeled as such. Really, it's that simple.As was pointed out, it is not a death effect, as such raise dead will work just fine (assuming you can somehow cast it before they actually become undead...difficult, but not impossible. Consecrate would do the trick)If something kills you and makes you an undead spawn, how can it NOT be a death effect?This.
Death effects are effects that are called out as death effects.
It doesn't matter. It is either stated as a death effect, is made a death effect by a mechanic that explicitly makes it a death effect (such as having the death descriptor) or it is not a death effect.
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As written, while the Strength damage from a Shadow's touch attack can kill a PC, it is not a death effect, just a negative energy effect.
Under Death Effects, in the glossary of the CRB, it states that, no matter how you died, you have a hit point total equal to or less than your negative Con.
Since it is not a death effect, and dying makes your hit point total, if higher, drop to equal your negative Con, the PC is a legal target for Breath of Life.
Since, unless he has taken damage form some other source, the PC would also not have taken any other damage to his hit points but the drop to negative Con from dying, Breath of Life will automatically be enough to bring up to stable negative or even positive hit points.
So, the PC is no longer dead.
He is not in the process of being hit by the Shadow, so his Strength damage, at this particular moment, doesn't matter, other than rendering him unconscious, per the Glossary.
This leads to a conundrum, actually. Since he is no longer dead, will he still rise as a Shadow under the original Shadow's control, or no?
Equally, if you immediately hit him, after the BoL, with either Restoration or Heal, he would have his full Strength back, and no longer be unconscious. Even forcing a potion of Lesser Restoration down his throat should cure enough Strength damage to wake him up, at least.
i'd say you have about 5 rounds to cure the STR damage before cerebral damage takes hold
i'd say you have about 5 rounds to cure the STR damage before cerebral damage takes hold
You can't cure damage on someone who's already dead.
Not everything that instantly kills you is a death effect (for instance, Phantasmal Killer isn't a death effect), so no, the Shadow's touch is not a death effect.
Heck HP damage kills you and it's not a death effect either. This is a slow killer (well comparatively to something like finger of death).
If the PC dies from shadow's strength drain, he's dead and coming back in 1d4 rounds as a shadow. If the original shadow died, PC is still dead and coming back as shadow. Breath of Life won't help as it wasn't HP damage that killed PC
Why was it necessary to resuurect a 7yo thread just to say what has already been said?
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If the PC dies from shadow's strength drain, he's dead and coming back in 1d4 rounds as a shadow. If the original shadow died, PC is still dead and coming back as shadow. Breath of Life won't help as it wasn't HP damage that killed PCWhy was it necessary to resuurect a 7yo thread just to say what has already been said?
The follow up question: did this thread come back as a shadow, or did it receive a BoL is now alive and well?