Does Sleep make you Prone? + Do you drop held items?


Rules Questions

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Melkiador wrote:
If it isn't written somewhere, it's not RAW.

which doesn't pertain to anything talked about. :/

that's what i'm trying to point out.


Melkiador wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:


I'm not sure I understand.

Are you claiming to understand the developers' intent here?

In so far as I claim that the developers' intent is to provide a fun game,.... yes, I feel confident making that claim.

Fun is subjective though. Obviously some players find one ruling fun, while others find another ruling more fun.

Which is why rule 0 exists.

Quote:
It's impossible to say which one the devs prefer without being a dev.

Not at all. They prefer the version that is more fun.


hey guys..

i got this idea

maybe we should just ask our respective GMs and go with that until the devs say something.

Right now the debate is between, "it probably was intended to be realistic" and "it probably was intended to be balanced". which are both subjective in of themselves.


Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
If it isn't written somewhere, it's not RAW.

which doesn't pertain to anything talked about. :/

that's what i'm trying to point out.

Because in this case, the rules that are unwritten speak just as loudly.

Helpless is a condition in the glossary. It is listed as being caused in the Sleep spell.
Prone is a condition in the glossary. It is not listed as being caused by the Sleep spell.
For completion, disarmed is not a listed condition, so it could go either way.

Edit: The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bandw2 wrote:

maybe we should just ask our respective GMs and go with that until the devs say something.

Right now the debate is between, "it probably was intended to be realistic" and "it probably was intended to be balanced". which are both subjective in of themselves.

I could go along with that!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


Rules as Written is important because (barring idiots who can't keep the three different rulesets straight), we can all agree on what the rules as written say, because anything "as written" can be quoted directly. (The only problem comes in when there are different printings and therefore different versions of RAW.)

while true, RAI is more important than RAW, and i'm not talking about Fake RAI where the intent is unclear, we all know RAI dead makes you dead, and you can't do actions or anything anymore. or how character walk normally on the ground or need oxygen to breath. etc etc etc

In general, I agree with you, with the stipulation that having fun is more important that RAI. Overpowering things are often not-fun (in fact, if they were fun, we wouldn't call them overpowering, just powerful), and the designers know that. So if there's an option out there that is overpoweringly strong, RAI is that it should be nerfed until things are fun.

There seem to be a lot of people on this thread that think that a first level spell being able to apply helpless plus prone plus disarmed is overpowering, no matter how realistic it is, and they're seizing on RAW to point out (correctly) that the designers did not intend for this spell to make the game not, and adding those additional conditions is not supported under RAW and makes the game not fun (in their opinion), and therefore cannot have been intended, either.

What did you mean by the bolded portion? The word "correctly" seems to imply that you understand the developers' position on whether sleep effects cause the subject to become prone and drop items.

1) Is this what you meant to imply? If not, could you clarify?

2) Does this mean that you believe one of the two is definitive RAW? If so, which? If not, is this due to GM adjudication/Rule 0? If not could you clarify further?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.

It called out Helpless after saying they go into magical slumber, which is defined as "a sleep". The target is sleeping and helpless. Whether they are standing while sleeping or prone depends on your interpretation.


Melkiador wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
If it isn't written somewhere, it's not RAW.

which doesn't pertain to anything talked about. :/

that's what i'm trying to point out.

Because in this case, the rules that are unwritten speak just as loudly.

Helpless is a condition in the glossary. It is listed as being caused in the Sleep spell.
Prone is a condition in the glossary. It is not listed as being caused by the Sleep spell.
For completion, disarmed is not a listed condition, so it could go either way.

while, it probably sounds condescending, my response to this is: so?

Legally this doesn't prove anything, as it's circumstantial, you have to paint a circumstance that makes the RAW make sense in your light.


I have still not seen anything to support the stance that you fall prone and are disarmed. Nothing that is supported by a single rule. Everything has been based off of what they believe the intent of the designers is.

I have now even seen people arguing that maybe you should take damage.

Now the thread has degenerated into arguing what RAW means.


Kalindlara wrote:


What did you mean by the bolded portion? The word "correctly" seems to imply that you understand the developers' position on whether sleep effects cause the subject to become prone and drop items.

The developers intended this to be a fun game. They did not intend to introduce elements that are not fun. Therefore, no not-fun element was deliberately introduced into the game.

That's the developers' intention, and (as I said) I feel fairly confident about that.

The question about whether or not sleep is overpowered is not addressed within the rules. There is, in fact, a potentially notable omission where it does not state one way or another whether sleep implies prone. There are two rational explanations:

* Sleep deliberately does not imply prone or disarmed, because the designers knew that would be overpowering and therefore not-fun.
* Sleep implies prone/disarmed because that's how the real world works (and space is at a premium), and the designers did not consider helpless+prone+disarmed to be an overpowering combination.

RAW is silent about which of these two cases holds, as the designers did not provide their notes.

RAI is that sleep and similar spells are not intended to make the game not-fun. If sleeping on your back is not fun, but sleeping on your feet is, then RAI and RAW are both fairly clear: Rule 0.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:


What did you mean by the bolded portion? The word "correctly" seems to imply that you understand the developers' position on whether sleep effects cause the subject to become prone and drop items.

The developers intended this to be a fun game. They did not intend to introduce elements that are not fun. Therefore, no not-fun element was deliberately introduced into the game.

That's the developers' intention, and (as I said) I feel fairly confident about that.

The question about whether or not sleep is overpowered is not addressed within the rules. There is, in fact, a potentially notable omission where it does not state one way or another whether sleep implies prone. There are two rational explanations:

* Sleep deliberately does not imply prone or disarmed, because the designers knew that would be overpowering and therefore not-fun.
* Sleep implies prone/disarmed because that's how the real world works (and space is at a premium), and the designers did not consider helpless+prone+disarmed to be an overpowering combination.

RAW is silent about which of these two cases holds, as the designers did not provide their notes.

RAI is that sleep and similar spells are not intended to make the game not-fun. If sleeping on your back is not fun, then RAI and RAW are both fairly clear: Rule 0.

I see. Thank you.


James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.
It called out Helpless after saying they go into magical slumber, which is defined as "a sleep". The target is sleeping and helpless. Whether they are standing while sleeping or prone depends on your interpretation.

It always depends on an interpretation, but you do really have to wonder why Helpless gets called out explicitly when it didn't have to be and Prone didn't. If Prone doesn't need to be mentioned, "because obviously", then why is Helpless mentioned, "because obviously"?


James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.
It called out Helpless after saying they go into magical slumber, which is defined as "a sleep". The target is sleeping and helpless. Whether they are standing while sleeping or prone depends on your interpretation.

One is a condition. One is not. "a Sleep" is never defined as a condition.


Minos Judge wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.
It called out Helpless after saying they go into magical slumber, which is defined as "a sleep". The target is sleeping and helpless. Whether they are standing while sleeping or prone depends on your interpretation.
One is a condition. One is not. "a Sleep" is never defined as a condition.

Helpless and Prone are "conditions", as they are in the Glossary. Sleeping is listed in Helpless as a cause of Helpless, but otherwise not in RAW other than its use in spells and effects.


I know this wont work, but both camps have said their piece over, and over.... AND OVER.

We all clicked FAQ, can we just agree to disagree?


Melkiador wrote:
Minos Judge wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.
It called out Helpless after saying they go into magical slumber, which is defined as "a sleep". The target is sleeping and helpless. Whether they are standing while sleeping or prone depends on your interpretation.
One is a condition. One is not. "a Sleep" is never defined as a condition.
Helpless and Prone are "conditions", as they are in the Glossary. Sleeping is listed in Helpless as a cause of Helpless, but otherwise not in RAW other than its use in spells and effects.

This is why I object to the idea that people keep trying to use it in answers. Sleep is used repeatedly to describe things without ever going into detail as to what they intend. This is a problem. They can say anything they want until they put something in writing. Then they have to be sure that it says what they want it to.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Minos Judge wrote:
I have still not seen anything to support the stance that you fall prone and are disarmed. Nothing that is supported by a single rule.

If you are serious then here:

Quote:

Slumber (Su) is as per sleep

sleep says "causes a magical slumber"
Dictionary says "slumber" is "a sleep" or "sleep"
sleep also says "Sleeping creatures are helpless" and "does not target unconscious creatures"

Summary: You are now unconscious and helpless. Whether you stand or not is dependent on whether or not your interpretation of falling asleep and unconscious makes you prone and disarmed.


James Risner wrote:
Minos Judge wrote:
I have still not seen anything to support the stance that you fall prone and are disarmed. Nothing that is supported by a single rule.

If you are serious then here:

Quote:

Slumber (Su) is as per sleep

sleep says "causes a magical slumber"
Dictionary says "slumber" is "a sleep" or "sleep"
sleep also says "Sleeping creatures are helpless" and "does not target unconscious creatures"
Summary: You are now unconscious and helpless. Whether you stand or not is dependent on whether or not your interpretation of falling asleep and unconscious makes you prone and disarmed.

The problem with "unconscious" is that it actually has an in game definition in the Glossary. We do know that Unconscious and Sleeping are separate effects in game, because they are written as separate in the entry for Helpless in the Glossary.

Scarab Sages

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CONGRATULATIONS

This thread has been selected as a finalist for my annual award: "Rules Threads That Remind Me Why To Never Read the Rules Forum".

I'll see you next month with "Water: the rules never actually say it's wet" and "When the encumbrance rules refer to 'pounds', they're referring to British currency."


Melkiador wrote:
[The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.

Actually, yes,... yes, it did. Otherwise people reading the spell wouldn't know what condition it applied unless they had memorized all the conditions word-for-word.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:


What did you mean by the bolded portion? The word "correctly" seems to imply that you understand the developers' position on whether sleep effects cause the subject to become prone and drop items.
The developers intended this to be a fun game.

YOU CAN'T KNOW THAT! [/joke]


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
[The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.

Actually, yes,... yes, it did. Otherwise people reading the spell wouldn't know what condition it applied unless they had memorized all the conditions word-for-word.

Oh, you mean a condition like Prone?


Melkiador wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
[The really condemning thing is that the Sleep spell didn't have to call out Helpless. Helpless itself lists Sleeping as being a cause of Helpless.

Actually, yes,... yes, it did. Otherwise people reading the spell wouldn't know what condition it applied unless they had memorized all the conditions word-for-word.

Oh, you mean a condition like Prone?

he's asleep


James Risner wrote:
Minos Judge wrote:
I have still not seen anything to support the stance that you fall prone and are disarmed. Nothing that is supported by a single rule.

If you are serious then here:

Quote:

Slumber (Su) is as per sleep

sleep says "causes a magical slumber"
Dictionary says "slumber" is "a sleep" or "sleep"
sleep also says "Sleeping creatures are helpless" and "does not target unconscious creatures"
Summary: You are now unconscious and helpless. Whether you stand or not is dependent on whether or not your interpretation of falling asleep and unconscious makes you prone and disarmed.

Thank you for the answer.

And again Unconscious is not used as a condition that results from the spell. If they wanted it to be there they could have listed it very easy or just said that you use that condition only. Especially considering that unconscious makes you helpless. That is part of the result of being unconscious.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

So that is settled? One side won't accept the other side saying their view is RAW? Plus one side won't accept the other side saying both sides are RAW?

If so, we are done here. Click the FAQ.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:

So that is settled? One side won't accept the other side saying their view is RAW? Plus one side won't accept the other side saying both sides are RAW?

If so, we are done here. Click the FAQ.

but if they stop i can't pretend i'm still arguing with people.

edit: wow, i got a favorite in less than like 2 minutes... This is my way of shaming people into stopping the thread. works like 20% better than telling people to stop.


James Risner wrote:

So that is settled? One side won't accept the other side saying their view is RAW? Plus one side won't accept the other side saying both sides are RAW?

If so, we are done here. Click the FAQ.

RAW? Inconceivable


Bandw2 wrote:
edit: wow, i got a favorite in less than like 2 minutes... This is my way of shaming people into stopping the thread. works like 20% better than telling people to stop.

Yeah, if it's anything like my throw-away "why is this really a question that needs to be asked?" post on the first page, you're going to get a lot more.


Bandw2 wrote:
James Risner wrote:

So that is settled? One side won't accept the other side saying their view is RAW? Plus one side won't accept the other side saying both sides are RAW?

If so, we are done here. Click the FAQ.

but if they stop i can't pretend i'm still arguing with people.

edit: wow, i got a favorite in less than like 2 minutes... This is my way of shaming people into stopping the thread. works like 20% better than telling people to stop.

Threads like this don't really stop until a FAQ and then there will be whining from one of the two sides. Even if we get tired of arguing the same points over and over there will always be a new group of us tomorrow, next month or next year that will want to put their own spin on things.

I really don't envy the devs making a decision on this question. They have to consider RAW, intent and balance and make a final decision that is bound to make some vocal group of players upset. There will be lots of calls of "My group is still going to do it my way".


mourge40k wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
edit: wow, i got a favorite in less than like 2 minutes... This is my way of shaming people into stopping the thread. works like 20% better than telling people to stop.
Yeah, if it's anything like my throw-away "why is this really a question that needs to be asked?" post on the first page, you're going to get a lot more.

The problem with that post was that it did not provide any answer. It was just a response without any context. Therefore irrelevant to the thread in question.

Plus with over half the thread being about the question and not overly-derailed. It obviously needs to be answered.


An interesting side-bar, you will see the sleeping while standing up trope most often in video games. It is very rare for a character in a video game to lay down when a sleep spell is cast on them. I wonder if the "assumption divide" is mostly between video gamers and non-video gamers.

Grand Lodge

That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
mourge40k wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
edit: wow, i got a favorite in less than like 2 minutes... This is my way of shaming people into stopping the thread. works like 20% better than telling people to stop.
Yeah, if it's anything like my throw-away "why is this really a question that needs to be asked?" post on the first page, you're going to get a lot more.

no one replied about the topic for like 26 minutes, it never works forever, but it's still slightly effective. :P


FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.

Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.


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Melkiador wrote:
An interesting side-bar, you will see the sleeping while standing up trope most often in video games. It is very rare for a character in a video game to lay down when a sleep spell is cast on them. I wonder if the "assumption divide" is mostly between video gamers and non-video gamers.

i'm a video gamer and I think they fall down.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have trouble believing someone will stay standing if they fall asleep in the middle of a fight.

They are in motion, poised to move and are wearing heavy objects. Even a bag of holding or a haversack will help you to the ground.


Melkiador wrote:
FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.
Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.

magical sleep is a trope from video games largely for the stun until damaged ability.


GeneticDrift wrote:

I have trouble believing someone will stay standing if they fall asleep in the middle of a fight.

They are in motion, poised to move and are wearing heavy objects. Even a bag of holding or a haversack will help you to the ground.

You can read the rest of the thread to see how this has already been argued in circles. It's a magical sleep, so it's hard to tell how much reality factors in.

Grand Lodge

Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.
Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.
magical sleep is a trope from video games largely for the stun until damaged ability.

Actually, I am pretty sure they borrowed it from RPGs, RPGs have had sleep spells for a very long time. Both probably borrowed it from fantasy novels and movies


Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.
Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.
magical sleep is a trope from video games largely for the stun until damaged ability.

Maybe that's all it's supposed to be in Pathfinder too?


Melkiador wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.
Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.
magical sleep is a trope from video games largely for the stun until damaged ability.
Maybe that's all it's supposed to be in Pathfinder too?

nah


Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
FLite wrote:
That may be because it is a pain in the back to code a lie down animation into every single sleep capable model in the whole game, so unless you have some other reason for wanting all the skins in the game to be able to lie down, it is easier for them just to sleep standing up.
Very true. But I wonder how this has affected our natural assumptions of magical sleep. When 99% of the magical sleep you have ever seen portrayed is standing up, then you are probably more likely to assume that a magical sleep is standing.
magical sleep is a trope from video games largely for the stun until damaged ability.
Maybe that's all it's supposed to be in Pathfinder too?
nah

lol


When I was in basic training I fell asleep on a road march once.

I was too tired to keep my eyes open so I hooked my hand into one of the straps on the guy ahead of me's pack so I wouldn't lose my footing while I shut my eyes.

It felt kind of like I stumbled and a little more than an hour had passed.

That being said, when I run my games, sleep equals prone and dropping anything that isn't strapped to you.


Melkiador wrote:

Threads like this don't really stop until a FAQ and then there will be whining from one of the two sides. Even if we get tired of arguing the same points over and over there will always be a new group of us tomorrow, next month or next year that will want to put their own spin on things.

I really don't envy the devs making a decision on this question. They have to consider RAW, intent and balance and make a final decision that is bound to make some vocal group of players upset. There will be lots of calls of "My group is still going to do it my way".

I whole-heartedly agree with you here. I don't do PFS, so any FAQ like this I can probably safely ignore, and my players won't care too much.

But onto another point, specifically about how the sleep condition would be overpowered if it did make you go prone and drop your stuff. Doesn't the Sleep spell itself only affect up to 4 HD of creatures? That's actually not too bad, for a first level spell. Hell, just means it'll become less than useful very quickly. Deep Slumber only goes up to 10 HD (again, not that helpful for that long). This only really leaves the Slumber Hex as a concern, and I feel that should be a justifiably powerful ability regardless.

That being said, it's really easy to counter. Elves will laugh at you before doing their thing, and Locked Gauntlets are only 8 gp (16, if you TWF). So, all that really leaves is recovering from prone. And honestly, it's not too bad to eat an attack of opportunity sometimes, and if you're a rogue, you can get Stand up, and not lose any actions at all. What's truly great is that all of these options are from the Core.

... Wait a second. Did I just point out how a Rogue can actually have an edge over some other classes? ... Must be a sign of the end times. Oh well, time to get my bug-out bag.


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mourge40k wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

Threads like this don't really stop until a FAQ and then there will be whining from one of the two sides. Even if we get tired of arguing the same points over and over there will always be a new group of us tomorrow, next month or next year that will want to put their own spin on things.

I really don't envy the devs making a decision on this question. They have to consider RAW, intent and balance and make a final decision that is bound to make some vocal group of players upset. There will be lots of calls of "My group is still going to do it my way".

I whole-heartedly agree with you here. I don't do PFS, so any FAQ like this I can probably safely ignore, and my players won't care too much.

But onto another point, specifically about how the sleep condition would be overpowered if it did make you go prone and drop your stuff. Doesn't the Sleep spell itself only affect up to 4 HD of creatures? That's actually not too bad, for a first level spell. Hell, just means it'll become less than useful very quickly. Deep Slumber only goes up to 10 HD (again, not that helpful for that long). This only really leaves the Slumber Hex as a concern, and I feel that should be a justifiably powerful ability regardless.

That being said, it's really easy to counter. Elves will laugh at you before doing their thing, and Locked Gauntlets are only 8 gp (16, if you TWF). So, all that really leaves is recovering from prone. And honestly, it's not too bad to eat an attack of opportunity sometimes, and if you're a rogue, you can get Stand up, and not lose any actions at all. What's truly great is that all of these options are from the Core.

... Wait a second. Did I just point out how a Rogue can actually have an edge over some other classes? ... Must be a sign of the end times. Oh well, time to get my bug-out bag.

stop trying to make cohesive arguments, it makes the rest of us look bad.

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