How can an Oracle with poor Strength and Dexterity become more accurate with touch attacks?


Advice

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The title is pretty self explanatory. I'm not intending to even wield weapons (beyond a Cestus to threaten for flanking purposes), so, I am looking to dump both Strength and Dexterity on my Oracle, but I still want to reliably (i.e. almost always) hit with my touch (and ray) spells. Yes, I know most monsters have horrible touch ACs, but I'm not concerned with big brute monsters, I'm more nervous about landing them on high level boss (i.e. caster) enemies who can have pretty hefty non-Armor/Natural bonuses and spare more point buy for Dex.

What options are available to me? I know I could take Weapon Focus, but +1 is pretty lackluster. Any way to change my attack stat with touch/ray spells to something else? Feats that give more than just +1? Items? Any good buff spells that last more than rounds/level that could help me?


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What revelation and why dump? What do you need to dump them for so that you can achieve the touch attacks? More often than not a a 14 is MORE than enough to be accurate as that represents a 50/50 under the majority of situations.

Grand Lodge

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Well, a familiar can deliver touch spells, and if you plan to dump dex, will likely have a higher dex, as well as use your BaB and have a hefty size bonus.

Point Blank Shot applies to rays, and it is not just a +1 to hit but a +1 to damage too.

Another option is True Strike. Scratch that, it is not a cleric/oracle spell. It is a wizard one, if you are that kinda oracle.

Reduce person gives you more dex and a size bonus too. Spells often do not care about your size too.


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Just say no to dump stats.


Dual cursed oracle with fortune revelation at level 5. Don't increase the attack bonus but you do get to reroll.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:

What revelation and why dump? What do you need to dump them for so that you can achieve the touch attacks? More often than not a a 14 is MORE than enough to be accurate as that represents a 50/50 under the majority of situations.

I'm not talking about a revelation, necessarily, I'm more talking stuff like Dimensional Anchor or Harm. Spells that require touches.

Why dump them? Because I can. I can get Charisma to AC and all my saves and, maybe, if the GM lets me take it, to Initiative as well. I can Air Walk so, I won't need climb, and If I can get a swim speed through spells, too. If I VMC Bard, I can even use Dance (a Charisma skill) instead of Acrobatics and Fly, the most important Dex skills after Stealth, so, I'd be in a great position to dump them (Str down to 7, probably, Dex maybe to 10). But I may have to keep some Dex* for these touch spells if I can't find another way around it.

*Like most tables (or at least my own and every one I've been a part of), this group houserules that touch spells can be Finessed without a feat

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Dual cursed oracle with fortune revelation at level 5. Don't increase the attack bonus but you do get to reroll.

I will probably be Dual Cursed, so that's actually a great idea. I was going to not take Fortune because I didn't think I would be rolling much myself and my saves would be so high, but duh, I'm asking about attack rolls and here you go. Ok, that's one good idea. Any others?

Doomed Hero wrote:
Just say no to dump stats.

If I didn't have to deal with frustratingly point buy, I wouldn't, trust me.

Dafydd wrote:

Well, a familiar can deliver touch spells, and if you plan to dump dex, will likely have a higher dex, as well as use your BaB and have a hefty size bonus.

Point Blank Shot applies to rays, and it is not just a +1 to hit but a +1 to damage too.

Another option is True Strike. Scratch that, it is not a cleric/oracle spell. It is a wizard one, if you are that kinda oracle.

Reduce person gives you more dex and a size bonus too. Spells often do not care about your size too.

The familiar helps with touch spells, but not rays, unfortunately. PB Shot is +1 to hit, but the damage won't be relevant, since I'm talking stuff like Dimensional Anchor or Energy Drain, not damage rays.

True Strike would have been a go to, but yeah, not a Cleric spell. Is Reduce Person? I know Enlarge isn't...hmm.


Just put 10 in strength.


My real advice is "don't" but I realize that's not really helpful so:

With a high CHA take UMD and get a wand of Cat's Grace maybe? The standard Point Blank, and Weapon Focus gets you +1 each.

I mean what options are available to us? Give us the parts of the character that are set in stone besides the low STR/DEX. Have you picked out your Mystery (something tells me it's Lore or Nature)? Are you opposed to multiclassing? I don't really have ideas for anything of these things, I'm just trying to not waste time looking over things you don't want to change.


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@OP: I can go with that but it will not be safe honestly. With a strength 7 your barely wearing armor and even with that light armor your AC is wizard level at best without burning spells. And with your reduced accuracy that wil cost you more spells or feats. Even a 10 strength would make a 10% chance of success increase and you could carry more than light armor.

I asked about revelations/mystery because a battle oracle gets weapon focus and greater weapon focus for free overtime. A war sighted oracle can sacrafice revelations for feat swapping in battle giving you flexibility when a certain kind of touch attack isn't wanted. Lots of variables we don't get know.


Jodokai wrote:
I mean what options are available to us? Give us the parts of the character that are set in stone besides the low STR/DEX. Have you picked out your Mystery (something tells me it's Lore or Nature)? Are you opposed to multiclassing? I don't really have ideas for anything of these things, I'm just trying to not waste time looking over things you don't want to change.

Time, but I will still have access to Whispers of Nature. It's complicated, just go with it. My only feat set in stone is Divine Protection. I'm unsure as to whether or not I will be allowed to take Scion of War for Charisma to Initiative, so, I'm assuming no at the moment.

I'm leaning Dual Cursed with Haunted and Shattered Psyche. Not sure which will be my main, yet. Immunity to Mind Affecting vs. Reverse Gravity is tough. I am considering VMC Bard, but it's going to eat a lot of feats. I think I will also be allowed to do Spirit Guide (even though both mess with mystery skills), but it will eat into my revelations, so, I definitely won't take both Spirit Guide AND VMC.

Decision wise, I don't have to dump Dex, necessarily, but skills will be tight if I don't (i.e. because the point buy for good dex will come out of Int). Strength, I'd really like to dump for the concept. I don't want to deal any weapon damage--that's not my role. I'm going for strictly support and control. The armor situation will be fine--I'll have Celestial Armor, which weighs next to nothing, and I have little gear otherwise.


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mplindustries wrote:
The title is pretty self explanatory.

Weapon Focus. Leveling up to boost BAB. Getting magic items to boost the stats that you have gimped yourself on.

Or just don't use any spells that require attack rolls since your making yourself into a virtual quadriplegic.

Hope no one hits you with Ray of Enfeeblement or exhaustion effects.

Liberty's Edge

Wand of True Strike and UMD?


What level are you? Feats like Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, buff spells, magic items and the like are the only ways I can think of besides straight-up leveling.

The familiar via Eldritch Heritage (arcane) is also a good option and provides increased action economy.

The Exchange

Getting a familiar is definitely your best bet, as Dafydd said before.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Combat Expertise and Improved Feint.

Now you're going after Flat-footed Touch AC -- which is usually very close to 10.


mplindustries wrote:

Why dump them? Because I can. I can get Charisma to AC and all my saves and, maybe, if the GM lets me take it, to Initiative as well. I can Air Walk so, I won't need climb, and If I can get a swim speed through spells, too. If I VMC Bard, I can even use Dance (a Charisma skill) instead of Acrobatics and Fly, the most important Dex skills after Stealth, so, I'd be in a great position to dump them (Str down to 7, probably, Dex maybe to 10). But I may have to keep some Dex* for these touch spells if I can't find another way around it.

*Like most tables (or at least my own and every one I've been a part of), this group houserules that touch spells can be Finessed without a feat

Your CMD must suck tho

Grand Lodge

Entryhazard wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Why dump them? Because I can. I can get Charisma to AC and all my saves and, maybe, if the GM lets me take it, to Initiative as well. I can Air Walk so, I won't need climb, and If I can get a swim speed through spells, too. If I VMC Bard, I can even use Dance (a Charisma skill) instead of Acrobatics and Fly, the most important Dex skills after Stealth, so, I'd be in a great position to dump them (Str down to 7, probably, Dex maybe to 10). But I may have to keep some Dex* for these touch spells if I can't find another way around it.

*Like most tables (or at least my own and every one I've been a part of), this group houserules that touch spells can be Finessed without a feat

Your CMD must suck tho

Flying, no weapon, what do they need the CMD for?

No weapon negates sunder and disarm, flight can negate trip, grapple and bull rush. Still have to deal with dirty trick(to a limited degree), but that is not something that is used often tmk, unless a player focuses on it.


Dafydd wrote:

Flying, no weapon, what do they need the CMD for?

No weapon negates sunder and disarm, flight can negate trip, grapple and bull rush. Still have to deal with dirty trick(to a limited degree), but that is not something that is used often tmk, unless a player focuses on it.

Assuming he starts at level 8 and burns level 4 slots all day in order to fly.

And also some flyers do grapple, I have bad memories with harpies.


He mentioned he was getting Nature's Whispers, which makes both AC and CMD use Cha in place of Dex. So he should be OK for CMD. Not great, but he doesn't need to be "great"; that's not his job.


Kazaan wrote:
He mentioned he was getting Nature's Whispers, which makes both AC and CMD use Cha in place of Dex. So he should be OK for CMD. Not great, but he doesn't need to be "great"; that's not his job.

There are two kinds of revelations that give Cha instad of Dex to AC.

One substitutes Dex in the CMD too, while the other does this for the Ref save.

IIRC there isn't one that substitutes Dex to Cha in all the three, so he have to choose between a bad Ref save or a bad CMD


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Alter Self to small humanoid, say goblin. +1 attack siz, +2 dex (siz) bonus. And darkvision too.

Dumping dex is not something I recommend. Dex impacts too many things. AC/Ref saves/Ranged attack, initiative, etc...


Entryhazard wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
He mentioned he was getting Nature's Whispers, which makes both AC and CMD use Cha in place of Dex. So he should be OK for CMD. Not great, but he doesn't need to be "great"; that's not his job.

There are two kinds of revelations that give Cha instad of Dex to AC.

One substitutes Dex in the CMD too, while the other does this for the Ref save.

IIRC there isn't one that substitutes Dex to Cha in all the three, so he have to choose between a bad Ref save or a bad CMD

You missed the Divine Protection feat I believe. All bases covered.


mplindustries wrote:
What options are available to me? I know I could take Weapon Focus, but +1 is pretty lackluster. Any way to change my attack stat with touch/ray spells to something else? Feats that give more than just +1? Items? Any good buff spells that last more than rounds/level that could help me?

+1 morale...Flagbearer feat

+2 morale...Banner of Ancient Kings
(you give these to the party too, so bonus!)

+1 luck...Prayer spell
+2 luck or more...Divine Favor
(add +1 with Fate's Favored trait)
(quicken Divine Favor as a level 5 spell)

+2 sacred bonus...Hunter's Blessing spell (hour per level spell)

+1 to hit....Boots of Speed

+2 flanking

-2 enemy AC debuff...Archon's Aura spell (10 minutes per level)

deny enemy dex to AC...Ring of Invisibility


Entryhazard wrote:
Dafydd wrote:

Flying, no weapon, what do they need the CMD for?

No weapon negates sunder and disarm, flight can negate trip, grapple and bull rush. Still have to deal with dirty trick(to a limited degree), but that is not something that is used often tmk, unless a player focuses on it.

Assuming he starts at level 8 and burns level 4 slots all day in order to fly.

And also some flyers do grapple, I have bad memories with harpies.

I'm starting at 12th, actually, and Freedom of Movement stops grapples if I'm worried about that. But yeah, my CMD will be "ok" with Nature's Whispers anyway. I'm exactly the kind of character that can dump Str and Dex because I can cover pretty much everything with something else. Everything, it seems, except touch attacks, so, I'm considering maybe I won't, but seriously, Oracle can be pretty phenomenally SAD.

Otherwise, Some of these spells, I never noticed before. Hunter's Blessing is interesting. May consider that just because of how many people it hits and for such a long duration.

I wish I could do Flagbearer, but the GM said we would need an actual symbol and work for an actual nation or organization, not just use some personal symbol--he basically said it's for stuff like Kingmaker when you make your own country or when you all work for another organization :/

Liberty's Edge

Dip Paladin to get Smite Evil. If you can afford the 4-level dip, Oath of vengeance Paladin should never run out of Smites ;-)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just cast divine favor, done.


mplindustries wrote:
Otherwise, Some of these spells, I never noticed before.

Grace (the spell, level 2, APG) is swift action to cast. It is easy for an oracle (level 12 especially) to spam. That can really help nailing that flank bonus for +2 to hit.

+1 competence to hit... cracked pale green prism ioun stone (4000gp)

+2 competence to hit... Summon Monster VI spell (lilenda azata gives Inspire Courage)

+2 to hit...Blessing of Fervor spell (doesn't stack with Haste or Boots of Speed)

+3 to hit...War Blessing feat (pick the Strength blessing, 2/day swift action effect)

There is a level 2 spell that adds +5 to hit... hmm... can't recall it... will look for it. That might be exactly what you are looking for.


+5 sacred bonus to hit... Inheritor's Smite spell

*********************************************

Inheritor's Smite

School transmutation; Level cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S, DF

DESCRIPTION
You channel the power of righteousness into your weapon arm, allowing you to strike with great force. Your next melee attack (if made before the end of your next turn) gains a +5 sacred bonus on the attack roll. If the attack hits, you may immediately attempt a bull rush combat maneuver (with a +5 sacred bonus on your combat maneuver check) against the target without provoking an attack of opportunity; if your combat maneuver check exceeds the defender's CMD by more than 5, you do not need to move with the target to push it back more than 5 feet.

(from Inner Sea Gods)


A Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists so you can use your wisdom for touch?

Not much help for ranged, however.

Scarab Sages

haremlord wrote:

A Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists so you can use your wisdom for touch?

Not much help for ranged, however.

Wisdom to hit isn't going to help most oracles anyway.

If you are a wood oracle, Wood Bond + Tree Form will give you a scaling competence bonus with your wooden natural attacks, which can be used to deliver your touch spells.


Either buff yourself up before hand, or just Quicken True Strike for an easy +20 to the touch roll. That should be an easy hit unless the DM is throwing monks at you. In which case you could shut them down with other spells (Insect Plague/Summon Swarm).

If you can't finagle a way to get True Strike onto your list (VERY possible with an Oracle) and you have some sort of aversion to buffing (Divine Power? Righteous Might?) then I don't really know what to tell you.

Since I'm sure the only reason you're making this thread is because you want to be venerable, I can only hope that your cheese ages better than your dusty old bones.


Nature's Whispers is the good version of the dex replacing revelation. It goes to CMD and AC but it isn't limited by max dex like a Lore or Lunar oracle would be. You can take Heavy Armor Proficiency for full plate and then max out cha to get stupid high AC.

I would dump dex over str at that point and get the full plate. Dimensional Anchor will be somebody else's job to land, it isn't that great for an Oracle anyway as you don't have Planar Binding so combat is the only use and you have limited spells known. Nothing else jumps out as a ranged touch you would be using often.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ok, so if I understand, you are going to be playing in a fairly low point buy game, and to get around that you want to make sure that you only have one stat that matters, and not suffer any consequences for dumping.

My advice is don't do this. Your GM has set a low point buy (and I'd bet it is at least 15) because he wants a certain type of game. You breaking that will result in one of two things, either you are the only one that does that, making the game much less fun for everyone else as you outshine them, or everyone does that, making the GM unhappy which is never good.

Build a balanced character, with balanced stats that will fit in with the game the GM wants to run.


You may want to check out this thread as you are 1 level away from finishing the build.

EDIT: Also instead of Flagbearer, check out Battle Cry

Battle Cry wrote:


Prerequisite(s): Cha 13; base attack bonus +5 or Perform (act, oratory, or sing) 5 ranks.
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus, you can let out a battle cry as a swift action. When you do, allies within 30 feet who can hear you gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
If an ally is under the effect of this feat and fails a saving throw, she can choose to end the battle cry's effect on her to reroll the failed save. The ally must take the result of the reroll, even if it's lower. Each ally can use this effect only once per use of this feat.


Dave Justus wrote:

Ok, so if I understand, you are going to be playing in a fairly low point buy game, and to get around that you want to make sure that you only have one stat that matters, and not suffer any consequences for dumping.

My advice is don't do this. Your GM has set a low point buy (and I'd bet it is at least 15) because he wants a certain type of game. You breaking that will result in one of two things, either you are the only one that does that, making the game much less fun for everyone else as you outshine them, or everyone does that, making the GM unhappy which is never good.

Build a balanced character, with balanced stats that will fit in with the game the GM wants to run.

Actually, the GM used this point buy because he wanted people to dump stats and have weaknesses, but all but one of the other players annoyed him because they ended up taking all average stats (seriously, one of them had every stat 12-15). They did not do what he wanted and they ended up totally ineffective to boot.

The GM does not object to this at all. He ok'd everything but Noble Scion.

Kaouse wrote:
Either buff yourself up before hand

I guess I was looking for buffs that lasted a while, rather than rounds/level buffs I would have to waste early combat actions on.

Kaouse wrote:
Since I'm sure the only reason you're making this thread is because you want to be venerable, I can only hope that your cheese ages better than your dusty old bones.

No, I'm normal age. I never considered being old, but no, roleplaying calls for this guy to be youngish. I will be using Threefold Aspect to compensate for low Int/Wis, though.

The end result is that, yeah, I'm going to drop Int/Wis/Con more and take more Dex. Maybe just 14 at least and put physical stat buffs there instead of just in Con.

Battlecry is a good idea. I'll probably grab that until I get Heroes' Feast. My Bard had that, too, until I got Good Hope.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

long term heh, not really anything special.

Just have a way to be able to cast spells like divine favor, with quicken, you could buy a quicken metamagic rod...it would take a lot of wealth tho.

I would recommend to get a staff of the master + quicken feat, so you can just use charges to cast divine favor.

Longterm buffs for your attack rolls, nothing that would go longterm unless you have certain bonus spells from your mystery.

Heroism, if you have it as a bonus spell last a fairly longtime.

Beside that, divine favor and blessing of fervor are your usual buffs. It doesn't seem like you are going to be using weapons, cleric/oracle can buff their armor and weapons with magic vestment + Magic weapon for hours/level, not useful to you tho, so you are doing a bad touch build.


Imbicatus wrote:
haremlord wrote:

A Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists so you can use your wisdom for touch?

Not much help for ranged, however.

Wisdom to hit isn't going to help most oracles anyway.

If you are a wood oracle, Wood Bond + Tree Form will give you a scaling competence bonus with your wooden natural attacks, which can be used to deliver your touch spells.

While that is true, the OP only mentioned STR and DEX being dump stats. I was hoping that wasn't true for WIS as well.


haremlord wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
haremlord wrote:

A Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists so you can use your wisdom for touch?

Not much help for ranged, however.

Wisdom to hit isn't going to help most oracles anyway.

If you are a wood oracle, Wood Bond + Tree Form will give you a scaling competence bonus with your wooden natural attacks, which can be used to deliver your touch spells.

While that is true, the OP only mentioned STR and DEX being dump stats. I was hoping that wasn't true for WIS as well.

The original plan was 7 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Wis, 18 Cha, and anything I had to spare in Con and Int. I ended up up splitting between Dex and Con instead. I had to resign myself to way fewer skills than my Bard had.


mplindustries wrote:
While that is true, the OP only mentioned STR and DEX being dump stats. I was hoping that wasn't true for WIS as well.
The original plan was 7 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Wis, 18 Cha, and anything I had to spare in Con and Int. I ended up up splitting between Dex and Con instead. I had to resign myself to way fewer skills than my Bard had.

I think you were fine with a 10. Look at the touch AC's of CR 12 monsters, you're BAB and a +4 belt alone would probably let you hit 95% of the time. I mean you're at +11? 9 BAB +4 Belt. Even if they have a 20 Touch AC which is HUGE, you're still hitting on a 9.


I'm far less worried about regular CR 12-20 monsters. I'm far more worried about landing touch spells on CR12-20 spellcasters who are likely to be smaller, have higher Dex, and have higher non-armor/natural armor bonuses to their AC.

Specifically, I'm thinking Dimensional Anchor to stop them from just teleporting away. Or dropping Heal on undead casters. Or, crap, undead monks. A wight or mummy (or other undead with nasty touch abilities) monk would be horrendous to fight.

AP Spoilers:
I remember book 3 of Carrion Crown when that Wight Monk flurried and basically ended the Fighter's contribution for the rest of the book.

I lost some skills and HP from my Bard, but I have a respectable Dex in the end. I guess I was just hoping there was an item somewhere that added enhancement bonuses to touch or ray spells. Or a spell, well, exactly like Hunter's Blessing, which was a great find, that gave long duration hit buffs. Channel Vigor adding +4 to ranged attack rolls as the closest I found otherwise and it's just too short a duration in too competitive a spell level.


The easiest answer is "don't use touch attack spells"


mplindustries wrote:
**Spoiler**

You must be mistaken. I have it on good authority (almost everyone on these boards) that monks are completely worthless, totally broken, and could never even hit a Fighter, let alone take one out of a fight.

Seriously though, yeah you kind of have to decide what's more important to you. The Caster/Monk thing seems pretty situational, where the skill points seems like it would come into play a lot more, but I'm not there and I could be WAY off... Although, any chance your GM will let you Channel too? :P


Well, if the PC monks could flurry with level draining unarmed attacks, that would probably increase their perception in the boards


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Well, if the PC monks could flurry with level draining unarmed attacks, that would probably increase their perception in the boards

I'd like to think so, but I'm not entirely sure it's true.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Well, if the PC monks could flurry with level draining unarmed attacks, that would probably increase their perception in the boards

Pretty much this, yeah. Also note that the wight monk in question did not actually kill anyone--it died horribly on round two. Its just that level drain + highish level flurry is an ugly combo to face, as negative levels stick automatically and don't allow a save for 24 hours, so, there's no defense besides not getting hit in the first place.

And I am well aware my concerns are rare enemies, but they are major, important enemies. Boss fights, or mini boss fights. I'm not throwing Dimensional Anchors or other important/powerful touch/ray spells at mooks anyway. I'm one of those people that wants to be prepared for everything, and I'm fairly confident in taking on regular grunts--it's the spellcaster bosses that concern me.


If that is the case, scrolls or other consumables of the short term spells that do what you want are probably the way to go. Use them on the boss fights and replenish after.


"Everyone is not dumping because they are scrubs and they get nonfunctional builds! By the way, I'm dumping hard and my build is nonfunctional halp."

Silver Crusade

How about just keeping a 14 in the relative ability? Will it really matter if you get a +4 vs a +5 in the end?

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