"Everyone is not dumping because they are scrubs and they get nonfunctional builds! By the way, I'm dumping hard and my build is nonfunctional halp."
Actually, it's more like, "I'd like to dump harder--is there a way I can?" I ended up with 14 Dex in the end. Hardly a dump. But it would have been nice to have those points in Int or Con instead, if I had been able to dump Dex, too.
54 posts and no one has mentioned Spectral Hand?
Cast invisibility on it for added survivability and also it should attack an opponent as if they were flat footed.
Actually, it's more like, "I'd like to dump harder--is there a way I can?" I ended up with 14 Dex in the end. Hardly a dump. But it would have been nice to have those points in Int or Con instead, if I had been able to dump Dex, too.I came up with a +20ish to hit for those rare cases with an 8 STR/DEX.
What bonus to hit are you shooting for?
You're obviously including something else. At level 12, for example, if I started with 8 dex, I would get +4 from automatic bonus progression, but -2 from threefold aspect, leaving me with a 10. So, when I attack, I get my +9 BAB...and nothing else. +2 if I guessed right when I cast Hunter's Blessing hours ago.
So, +9 or +11. That's rough. I will have to spend rounds buffing to reliably hit even a 20 touch and it gets worse for rays if there's any cover or anything.
Where are yiu getting the other +9 or so from?
Why bother with Int at all? You get no penalty for dumping Int, since an Oracle is not a skill monkey class (unless you're going for Lore). Sure you won't have as many skills as a Bard, but that's because you're an Oracle. Let someone else fill that role. If you want to play a skill monkey, play a Bard/Inquisitor/Ninja/Rogue, whatever.
As far as reliably hitting with ray spells, you will need Precise Shot unless your GM house-rules away the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. Because unless your GM rules away cover penalties, too, you will be taking a -8 on about 60-70% of your ranged attacks.
Although if you're going with touch spells, you shouldn't need to worry about saving throws as much, so you don't need to keep your casting stat pumped all the way up. Drop your Charisma to 16 and put the extra points in Dex.
Why bother with Int at all? You get no penalty for dumping Int, since an Oracle is not a skill monkey class (unless you're going for Lore). Sure you won't have as many skills as a Bard, but that's because you're an Oracle. Let someone else fill that role. If you want to play a skill monkey, play a Bard/Inquisitor/Ninja/Rogue, whatever.
It's complicated. I did play the Bard, but discovered that while a pure caster bard works wonderfully through the mid levels, it becomes untenable as campaigns move on and saves climb too fast for 3/4 spell progression with a spell list containing 90% will saves (and 90% of those are mind affecting) to handle.
The party has lots of hammers and a wizard that kind of plays arm with teleports, haste, and enlarge, but mostly hammers himself with summons and magic missile/lightning bolt/chain lightning. So, they pretty badly need an anvil and some more arm.
They also neglected noncombat stuff pretty badly. Not a single member of the party had any social skills besides intimidate. There were gaps in the knowledges, too, because the wizard wanted to craft more than know stuff.
The GM called for a rebuild at level 12 to incorporate unchained stuff, and following that, I will be the only character with a charisma above 10 (well, there's a sorcerer, but she's a wallflower and still took zero charisma based skills). My bonus is higher than some of their scores.
So, I have a daunting task to fill the gaps and this is my best effort. Note: I have no complaints, I enjoy filling these roles and feel less put upon by a careless group than I do awesome for heroically doing all the stuff they can't.
There's also personal taste. I like skills. And the character concept is a con artist who was haunted/semi possessed (dual curse haunted and shattered psyche) by some mysterious entity that harasses me and ruins my cons until I agree to help save the world by defeating the AP's BBEG. I used a trait to get Bluff as a class skill, so, I cover most of the charisma skills.
And, as a Spirit guide, I can pretty skill-monkeyish, mind you. During adventuring days, I plan on using Heavens, and specifically the hex that lets me add charisma to my charisma skills again. On nonadventuring days, I can go with Lore instead, replacing my Int with Charisma on checks (which removes my curse penalty with those skills). I can also cadt Ancestral Communion/use Knowledge of the Ages to get a quick +8, so, yeah, I am still kind of skill monkeying a bit.
As far as reliably hitting with ray spells, you will need Precise Shot unless your GM house-rules away the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. Because unless your GM rules away cover penalties, too, you will be taking a -8 on about 60-70% of your ranged attacks.
This is why it is important to me to not need rounds buffing. I will go first--I roll 3d20 (take the best) and add 12 when proberly buffed--so, I want to be able to land that critical dimensional anchor before the bad guys can move around to get cover and my allies close into melee.
Although if you're going with touch spells, you shouldn't need to worry about saving throws as much, so you don't need to keep your casting stat pumped all the way up. Drop your Charisma to 16 and put the extra points in Dex.
I am not specializing in touch spells by any stretch. I just happen to have some that I consider high priority and want to make sure they land. No, short of boss fights, I will mostly be dropping buffs and control spells (greater command or chains of light, for example).
Yeah. Forget rays entirely. -8 is too much to contend with. Precise Shot isn't worth it likely for the amount you will likely be using it.
If you aren't going the Familiar route that has been suggested earlier (and this is a good suggestion) then I would talk to your DM about getting a use activated/continuous item that does Spectral Hand. Cost should be calculated like this:
(spell level x caster level x2000) x2 for duration of 1min/level.
(2 x 3 x2000) x2 = 24,000gp
So worth about as much as your armor. Probably well worth it for all your spells below 4th level.
Also, if you want to have Invisibility made permanent on an object that only costs an additional 5,000gp. This is going to require some DM interpretation as you are the attacker but the hand is the delivery mechanism. "Attackers" become visible after making an attack which touch spells are considered. It might rub some people the wrong way that the hand gets to retain it's invisibility while attacking.
Personally, I do not take issue with it as that hand is never going to have more than 4HP and those are taken from the caster each time it is used. If the hand is destroyed it would likely be from an AoE that the caster and hand are both in. It seems more likely it would hurt the caster slightly more than helping them with delivering touch spells. But it is better to bring these things up to your DM before doing them. It is something you would have to do anyway as the item I was referring to is a custom item regardless of whether it follows the item creation rules or not.
My point was that neither dumping or not dumping generate viable characters.
You can have an excellent Oracle without Divine Protection, and you can make a great Paladin with middling stats all around.
The game doesn't require everyone to be a Zen Archer.
Yeah. Forget rays entirely. -8 is too much to contend with. Precise Shot isn't worth it likely for the amount you will likely be using it.
If you aren't going the Familiar route that has been suggested earlier (and this is a good suggestion) then I would talk to your DM about getting a use activated/continuous item that does Spectral Hand. Cost should be calculated like this:
(spell level x caster level x2000) x2 for duration of 1min/level.
(2 x 3 x2000) x2 = 24,000gp
So worth about as much as your armor. Probably well worth it for all your spells below 4th level.
Only if you go by the table, which is usually how horribly underpriced items end up being devised.
One the spell basically gives +2 to hit, that pushes the price into the enhancement pricing range as per the "compare" to similar items.
Two it effectively gives a feat's worth of benefit. Ranged touch attacks (Reach Spell) with no level adjustment. Which is worth at least 2 feats (if not 4 - Spell Perfection).
All this probably pushes a realistic price into the 40k-80k price range.
My point was that neither dumping or not dumping generate viable characters.
You can have an excellent Oracle without Divine Protection, and you can make a great Paladin with middling stats all around.
The game doesn't require everyone to be a Zen Archer.
Right, but my point was that, "no, seriously, these other characters were bad, and mine is totally fine and functional, I was just looking to get even better."
Honestly, the others were terrible. They could barely function in the AP. The GM had to change way more than he wanted to make it work--it was almost to the point where one questions the value of prewritten material when it needs ao many edits. This is not me saying "oh man, this guy played a rogue!" and laughing them off for picking a bottom tier class, this is stuff like, the archer (not a switch hitter) having lower dex than strength, the rogue whose highest stat was 15 (and I mean at level 10+), the green dragon sorcerer entering the game at 10th (the same time I joined) with 16 charisma and all her feats dedicated to her crossbow shooting that used lightni g bolt more than her acid spells, or the transmuter with eldritch knight levels and zero polymorphs...It was a level beyond anything normally complained about.
Coincidentally, everyone is much improved after the rebuild with the gm and I assissting. Point buy forces you to dump. It sucks, but it does (mind you, I don't like rolling, either--that's worse).
Well, that seems like a problem unrelated to attributes, the way you put it!
Agreed that point buy encourages dumps, but unless you are 15-pt-buying it, there's no need to get to extremes with two stats simultaneously.
But I'm glad uh nature uh found a way.
Yeah. Forget rays entirely. -8 is too much to contend with. Precise Shot isn't worth it likely for the amount you will likely be using it.
If you aren't going the Familiar route that has been suggested earlier (and this is a good suggestion) then I would talk to your DM about getting a use activated/continuous item that does Spectral Hand. Cost should be calculated like this:
(spell level x caster level x2000) x2 for duration of 1min/level.
(2 x 3 x2000) x2 = 24,000gp
So worth about as much as your armor. Probably well worth it for all your spells below 4th level.
If you are going to follow those horrible guidelines for constant spells, a use activated lvl 1 True Strike glove gives you +20 to hit for really low price (somethink like 2000 or so)
I would *strongly* suggest dumping those horrible guidelines, though. They suck.
Skylancer4: I think it would be fair to increase the item's price by 8,000gp to include the +2 effect. However, this isn't an "enhancement bonus" so I think you are getting into muddy waters by trying to imply (or apply if you prefer) the bonus is an enhancement bonus. Trying to double charge for for the reach ability doesn't make sense, though. There is nothing that says or even implies that in the item creation rules. I couldn't find an item that justifies it's cost to be like that, either.
There is a difference between an item that gives a feat (which typically costs 10-15K and isn't represented in the table, but is exemplified by other items) and an item that gives a constant use spell.
All this being said, I'm pretty sure that I suggested that the player talk to the GM about this. Is that not also what you are advocating?
If you are going to follow those horrible guidelines for constant spells, a use activated lvl 1 True Strike glove gives you +20 to hit for really low price (somethink like 2000 or so)
That is not correct. By the rules you are not able to make a Truestrike item as it does not have a duration that is measured in "rounds". Plural.
Also, I am trying to be helpful, here. Perhaps rather than attacking my suggestion of a rules based resolution just because you do not like the particular rules that are used you could try being constructive?
The pricing on those charts is meant as an "estimation" anyway, and I did advocate talking it over the the GM. I'm not sure I deserved the rules hate being directed at me for offering that suggestion.
RDM42: Everyone knows that with optimizers that there is no such "maximum plus". Every time a new record is broke that just creates a theoretical cap, aka "challenge" for other optimizers.
edit: To be fair, mplindustries is here on an advice board asking for ways to optimize their character.
So, +9 or +11. That's rough. I will have to spend rounds buffing to reliably hit even a 20 touch and it gets worse for rays if there's any cover or anything.
I would seriously consider looking around. I would bet most of your PC's haven't reached a touch AC yet, creatures with touch AC's of 20 or higher are very rare, and they get even more rare as CR goes up, I've checked (dang gunslingers). There will be times when, yes, you will have trouble hitting, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, especially in the eyes of a GM trying to challenge his party.
Heh. I can attest to Jodokai having checked. I remember that grim thread...
So, +9 or +11. That's rough. I will have to spend rounds buffing to reliably hit even a 20 touch and it gets worse for rays if there's any cover or anything.I would seriously consider looking around. I would bet most of your PC's haven't reached a touch AC yet, creatures with touch AC's of 20 or higher are very rare, and they get even more rare as CR goes up, I've checked (dang gunslingers). There will be times when, yes, you will have trouble hitting, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, especially in the eyes of a GM trying to challenge his party.
Well, my own touch AC is 21 (23 with Shield of Faith). The Hunter has 20. The Rogue, 20. The Sorceress has 18. The Wizard, 17. The Barbarian has <10, but he doesn't count.
Again, though, not worried about creatures as much as the humanoid bosses with clasx levels and actual magic items.
That is not correct. By the rules you are not able to make a Truestrike item as it does not have a duration that is measured in "rounds". Plural.
Great.
So we are limited to bracers of Constant Shield, Shirts of Constant Mage Armor, boots of constant Enlarge Person, tabards of constant Protection from Evil and gloves of constant Divine Favor. All if them cost around 2000 or so, like a hat of disguise.Still not good, Bob.
Those suggested guidelines should die in a pit of radiactive hellfire, so nobody ever has the temptation to came close of using them again. Because they suck, plainly.
gustavo iglesias: Is your argument with me or with the rules? I am having trouble telling.
Skylancer4: I think it would be fair to increase the item's price by 8,000gp to include the +2 effect. However, this isn't an "enhancement bonus" so I think you are getting into muddy waters by trying to imply (or apply if you prefer) the bonus is an enhancement bonus. Trying to double charge for for the reach ability doesn't make sense, though. There is nothing that says or even implies that in the item creation rules. I couldn't find an item that justifies it's cost to be like that, either.
There is a difference between an item that gives a feat (which typically costs 10-15K and isn't represented in the table, but is exemplified by other items) and an item that gives a constant use spell.
All this being said, I'm pretty sure that I suggested that the player talk to the GM about this. Is that not also what you are advocating?
If you are going to follow those horrible guidelines for constant spells, a use activated lvl 1 True Strike glove gives you +20 to hit for really low price (somethink like 2000 or so)That is not correct. By the rules you are not able to make a Truestrike item as it does not have a duration that is measured in "rounds". Plural.
+2 to hit, the closest equivalent is the enhancement bonus.
The cost of a feat is roughly 10k-20k, the feat has prerequisites which aren't being supplied by the caster, so those need to be accounted for as well. This isn't "double charging," you are charging appropriately for benefits being reaped without resource cost.
The overall benefit of the item in question would be, +2 to hit as well as effectively giving reach to any and all appropriate spells without increasing the level of the spells cast. Spell Perfection does that, but normally for only one spell.
I absolutely suggest talking to the GM, just with a more realistic pricing than the low ball one you suggested.
gustavo iglesias: Is your argument with me or with the rules? I am having trouble telling.
I'm just leaving my opinion that those rules shouldn't be ustd, ever, and much less suggested as a fair course of action. Each and every single time somebody suggest a constant or use activated mqgic effect (specially low level ones), the ítem in question is absolutelly underpriced. It happens every time. Even profesional developers commit that sin. See Bracers of Falcon Aim as an example, which were banned from PFS almost instantly, and compare those bracers you and lesser bracer of archery.
It's not exactly about arguing you. It's about leaving here a warning, so whoever read your suggestion get also the warning: rules for constant magic effects in custom magic items SUCK, and should never ever be used by anyone, no exceptions. That incluye paizo's dev team, or whoever was the person who built Bracer of Falcon Aim.
I'm just leaving my opinion that those rules shouldn't be ustd, ever, and much less suggested as a fair course of action. Each and every single time somebody suggest a constant or use activated mqgic effect (specially low level ones), the ítem in question is absolutelly underpriced. It happens every time. Even profesional developers commit that sin. See Bracers of Falcon Aim as an example, which were banned from PFS almost instantly, and compare those bracers you and lesser bracer of archery.
It's not exactly about arguing you. It's about leaving here a warning, so whoever read your suggestion get also the warning: rules for constant magic effects in custom magic items SUCK, and should never ever be used by anyone, no exceptions. That incluye paizo's dev team, or whoever was the person who built Bracer of Falcon Aim.
While I do agree that for the most part the crafting rules are... inaccurate? They do give a base line for the GM to follow. In my mind, players don't craft ANYTHING that isn't a scroll, potion or wand without GM input.
That said, I think Lune has a valid point. Since you agree (at least I think you do) that for the majority of things you'll be okay, why not try a Ring of True Strike maybe 3 chargers per day or whatever the GM agrees to for those times you need the extra punch?
I don't think the crafting rules are bad. Just the part that allow to build constant magic effects.
I think it's ok when you use the value given for enhancement bonus, etc. Do you want +4 to AC? It cost what the formula gives you. Ok and balanced. However, if you use the "guideline" that allow you to get a constant effect paying for caster lvl x spell level, a constant Shield spell would give you MUCH more than it should. Constant Shield costs CL x Spell Level x 2000 x 2 (because duration measured in minutes), so you can pay 4.000g for a magic item that gives you +4 shield bonus and inmunity to magic missiles. Compare to, say, a ring of force shield.
4.000g for boots that gives you permanent Enlarge would be cool too. Or +2 deflection bonus to AC, +2 resistance to saves, and inmunity to mind control (prot from evil) for 4.000, insead of paying 8.000 for a ring of protection +2 which gives you only +2 deflection bonus to AC.
And so on.
So yes, magic crafting rules can be used as a guideline. My opinion, though, is that the guideline that suggest you should be able to get constant magic effects paying a very cheap CL x SL x 2000 x modifier and get the full effect of the spell, should be deleted from the book, erased from memory, and dumped into a pit of radiactive hellfire protected by swarms of vampiric stirges. You have to pay for the effect, not the spell level. So if you get +1 to hit, +3 to perception, and improved critical, you should pay +1 to hit, +3 to a skill, and improved critical, not Aspect of the Falcon constant effect.
gustavo iglesias: Well, I wont take it personally. However, I do feel that you are trying to invalidate my suggestion which I can only see as being helpful.
I wonder how you do things in campaigns that you run, or would run if you do not run currently. If someone wants to craft wonderous items and wishes to do so with continuous effect what do you use for a base line? Or do you make your own rules?
Look, regardless of your personal opinion on those rules they are the base lines that are printed in the book. Several items (both balanced and unbalanced) follow those rules. Some of them do not follow the rules and have a unique pricing. But the concept that I was suggesting of having a constant use item for Spectral Hand is sound. How you get to the price is something that we both agree should be discussed with the GM. I said that in first post that I suggested that specific item.
So, unless you have a better suggestion for establishing pricing for an item of it's sort?...
+2 to hit, the closest equivalent is the enhancement bonus
Well, no. That isn't true. The closest equivalent is the effect of the spell.
It isn't an enhancement bonus and it doesn't apply to all attacks. It is more limited. It only applies on touch attack spells, not ranged touch or anything else. There isn't any way to gain an enhancement bonus when using that spell. That is something you give up by being able to use it from range. You work only within the constraints of the spell. Otherwise, if using your OWN hand you COULD get an enhancement bonus. So stacking isn't really an issue either.
And as far as giving you the use of several feats, again, I disagree. what it gives you is the use of a single spell. Continuously. At this point I think what your argument may actually be is that the spell itself is more powerful than it should be for the level of the spell. I'm not sure I would agree with that either. There are several spells that give casters a boost beyond what is easy to acquire for martials. Transformation, as an example, gives a lot of power to a caster and it isn't easy for a martial to gain such bonuses. But then again, the only ones who can truly make use of it is casters. ...which is the same for Spectral Hand. The chapter on estimating item values even has information on discounting cost for an item that is only usable by certain classes, etc.
So while we may disagree on the exact pricing of the item, we do still agree that this is something that should be discussed with the DM. ...which is why I suggested that. If this player wanted such an item what advice would you give them? Would it be to use the chart as a rough guideline and discuss the finer points of pricing with the DM? Because that is what I suggested to begin with.
I do have Craft Wondrous Item, but the GM and I prefer not to use continuous spell magic items for exactly the issues raised above. Custom items are ok, just not that kind of a custom item. That said, a Spectral Hand just helps melee touch spells gain range. It doesn't help my ranged touch spells, plus, I'm far from squishy. I have the best AC and Saves in the party, a d8 hit die, and a Cure Critical Wounds hanging in Contingency, so, I'm fine going into melee.
What might be awesome, though, would be if there was any kind of precedent item/spell/whatever for adding an enhancement bonus to hit with touch/ray attacks. I know there's a flawed ioun stone that gives a +1 to hit for all attacks for 4k, but I was told I can't purposefully craft a flawed stone, nor are they available for purchase. Plus, I only care about touch and ranged touch attacks, so, I was hoping to figure out a fair discount.
Nothing says you can't use Spectral Hand in melee. I'm pretty sure others (including myself) have already given the best advice on your ranged touch spells: don't use them, it is a lost cause. You get -4 for firing into melee and most often another -4 for your allies providing cover. I would not recommend taking precise shot to counter this.
If your major concern is hitting NPCs with class levels that have a high touch AC then you are further ahead not using a touch attack to deliver your spell and just using an Unarmed Strike. That way you get to hit the same AC you would be hitting with your touch attack spell and delivering damage via the strike as well. A Deep Red Sphere Ioun Stone gives you Improved Unarmed Strike when socketed into a Wayfinder. The +2 Dex that it gives isn't going to go to waste either. If you have established that it is better to deliver touch attacks with Unarmed Strikes instead then it makes it much easier to gain enhancement bonuses to attack via spells like Greater Magic Weapon. Grab a +1 Spiked Gauntlet of Spell Storing to make to spells get delivered at once.
Boots of the Battle Herald, +2 morale attacks, saves and skill checks for 30 rounds a day (swift activation). Steep price but best you are going to get for a single slot I believe.
How about the Arrowmaster's bracers? In our home game we did the math and the truestrike effect costs around 5800 on it's own. There are also a bazillion things to do with VMC, but that's a feat guzzling can of worms.