Best possible Crit range.


Rules Questions


Hi!

So I was wondering, what is the best crit range possible? I figured it would be 15-20 since improved crit doesn't stack with keen.

For example, it wouldn't be that helpful for a swashbuckler with swashbuckler weapon training, which makes you gain improved crit, to have a keen rapier.

Am I missing something and if so, what would be the best possible crit range?

Thanks in advance :)


15-20 is the best.


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13-20/x4, with the ability to count rolls of 10-12 as hitting for double damage.

The latter ability is coming off of Improved Critical's combat trick from the stamina system. The actual range is from the Inspired Blade's capstone (increase critical threat range of rapiers by one) attached to Improved Critical. That capstone also bumps the multiplier by one; add in Mythic Improved Critical and you get x4.

I mean, that's a level 20 character with at least two mythic tiers and an optional subsystem working for him. Without all that, 15-20/x2.


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wouldnt it be 14-20x4? where does the last 1 extension come from?


One sees it as increasing the threat range by one and then doubling from improved crit. You see it as doing improved crit and then increasing it by one. I feel both are valid interpretations as we don't know how to do order of operations in PF as it normally never matters.


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Koshimo is correct, it would be 14-20 x4, 11-13 double damage. Absent the subsystems the largest possible is 14-20 x3 (fighter capstone on an 18-20 crit range), the 'best' is 18-20 x5 (same capstone for a 20 x4 crit weapon).


Trekkie90909 wrote:
Koshimo is correct, it would be 14-20 x4, 11-13 double damage. Absent the subsystems the largest possible is 14-20 x3 (capstone), the 'best' is 18-20 x5.

What are the ways to get that 'best' one? I know of kensai magus, are there others?


First it needs a 20 x4 weapon, the four I can think of off the top of my head are the scythe, pick (light/heavy), and pickaxe (all martial). IIRC there are some exotic weapons with the same range. Then the capstone ability "weapon mastery." I'm sure there are archetypes like kensai that grant it, base it's the Fighter capstone, and Swashbuckler gets a version of it.


I suppose we neglected the compromise options (tongi/falcata) which are exotic and deal 1d6/1d8 respectively for a 19-20/x3 crit range. With the capstone that's 16-20/x4 which is pretty good.


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Weapon Mastery + Scythe = 20/x5, crits are autoconfirmed. Weapon Mastery does not extend crit range. You could throw in Improved Critical to make that 19-20/x5, and Mythic Improved Critical for x6, but you're not getting to 18-20/x5 with a scythe. And incidentally, Falcata with Improved Critical only goes to 17-20, not 16. I think you may be under the assumption that Weapon Mastery increases crit range by 1? That's wrong if so, it increases the multiplier but not the range. The Inspired Blade has a rapier-specific capstone that increases threat range, but the normal Weapon Mastery doesn't do that.

And yes, I assumed the "stacks with Improved Critical" line of the Inspired Blade's capstone meant that it's fully integrated with IC, including the doubling. I can see the 14-20 interpretation though.

If we're thinking of 'best' as 'largest increase over base damage', then we have...

13-20/x4: Inspired Blade generous assumption, Improved Critical & Mythic, rapier: +120% damage (40% chance of critical hit, each crit increases damage by 3x)

14-20/x4: Inspired Blade conservative assumption, Improved Critical & Mythic, rapier: +105% damage (35% chance of critical hit, each crit increases damage by 3x)

19-20/x6: Scythe, Weapon Mastery, Improved Critical & Mythic: +100% damage (10% chance of critical hit, each crit increases damage by 5x)

15-20/x4: Rapier, Weapon Mastery, Improved Critical & Mythic: +90% (30% chance of critical hit, each crit increases damage by 3x)

17-20/x5: Falcata, Weapon Mastery, Improved Critical & Mythic: +80% (20% chance of critical hit, each crit increases damage by 4x).

I find this interesting, myself. Off the raw math, in a high enough level/power game the Falcata actually ceases to be the ideal weapon. And maybe not even that high level, what if you only had Mythic...

15-20/x3: +60% (30% chance of increasing damage by 2x)
17-20/x4: +60% (20% chance of increasing damage by 3x)
19-20/x5: +40% (10% damage of increasing damage by 4x)

Personally I'd take a 30% chance of triple damage over a 20% chance of quadruple, so the answer to that other thread's "what's a katana good for" is apparently "Mythic game crit-fishing".


Hey, just so you guys know, the kensai magus beats the Fighter because not only does it get weapon mastery too but it also gets this

perfect strike wrote:
At 4th level, when a kensai hits with his chosen weapon, he can spend 1 point from his arcane pool in order to maximize his weapon damage. Don’t roll for damage—the weapon deals maximum damage. This affects only the weapon’s base damage dice, not additional damage from sneak attack, magical weapon properties, spellstrike, or critical hits. If the kensai confirms a critical hit, he can instead spend 2 points from his arcane pool to increase his weapon’s critical multiplier by 1.

So all of your crits can be increased by one. So a non-mythic magus can get a scythe to do 19-20 x6.


A Swashbuckler(adamant entertainment version) level 8 with 8 levels in Disciple of Dispater(a 3.5 prestige class) and Improved Critcal is cruel.

Rapier, Normal: 18-20/x2
Rapier, 8th level Swashbuckler: 17-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical: 13-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical + Discple: triple the above. -3 to 20, I think.


I stand corrected. The RAW on inspired weapon mastery is "the critical threat range increases by 1." I'm sure there will be table variation. Also while it's less good action economy wise mythic death from above gives an extra +2 to the multiplier to a cap of 6. So you could get 14-20 x6 with mythic rules.


Any GM who allows that prestige class deserves what he gets.

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:

A Swashbuckler(adamant entertainment version) level 8 with 8 levels in Disciple of Dispater(a 3.5 prestige class) and Improved Critcal is cruel.

Rapier, Normal: 18-20/x2
Rapier, 8th level Swashbuckler: 17-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical: 13-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical + Discple: triple the above. -3 to 20, I think.

So if we use a 3pp class and another 3pp prestige class we get a totally broken character? Who knew?


Also while it's less good action economy wise mythic death from above gives an extra +2 to the multiplier (DfA also gives a nice bonus to hit) to a cap of 6. So you could get 14-20 x6 on a rapier with mythic rules. Personally would ignore mythic since it's not commonly implemented, and the stamina option is a wash so not really relevant.


claudekennilol wrote:
Azten wrote:

A Swashbuckler(adamant entertainment version) level 8 with 8 levels in Disciple of Dispater(a 3.5 prestige class) and Improved Critcal is cruel.

Rapier, Normal: 18-20/x2
Rapier, 8th level Swashbuckler: 17-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical: 13-20/x2
Rapier, Swashbuckler + Improved Critical + Discple: triple the above. -3 to 20, I think.

So if we use a 3pp class and another 3pp prestige class we get a totally broken character? Who knew?

Not really. You still need to hit.

And since pathfinder is 3.5 compatible, it's not a 3rd party prestige class.


But why do this when you can Pun-Pun? Because 3.5.


No... something written by Wizards of the Coast is still not written by the first party (Pazio), which makes it third party.

And hitting is not all that hard. Especially not when I get high enough leveled to start throwing out the various critical feats. Stagger or Stun the target every time I hit them? Yes please.

That combination is broken as f!&*, and like I said: any GM stupid enough to allow it deserves what he gets.

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:
And since pathfinder is 3.5 compatible, it's not a 3rd party prestige class.

Seriously? If it's compatible it's not third party? You do know what third party means, right? It's posts like this why we need a downvote button.


You realize Paizo should be 3rd party, right? It was built off of 3.5. Maybe it's "2nd" party.


DnD 3.5 is not Pathfinder. So while Pathfinder is compatible with 3.5, 3.5 is 3rd party material. Because Pathfinder is compatible with all 3rdd party classes.


Azten wrote:
You realize Paizo should be 3rd party, right? It was built off of 3.5. Maybe it's "2nd" party.

No.

To 3.5, Pazio is third party, and WotC is first party.

To Pathfinder, Pazio is first party and WotC is third party.

They are different games with different authors.

Grand Lodge

Not to mention that if you allow 3.5 material (plus 3.0 material that was never updated to 3.5, and nothing else 3rd party), the largest crit range you can get is actually 9-20 (or possibly 7-20).


Pathfinder was made by a different company that used 3.5. It's nothing but a bunch of 3.5 house rules. Yes, they are amazing, but they are still house rules.


Azten wrote:
Pathfinder was made by a different company that used 3.5. It's nothing but a bunch of 3.5 house rules. Yes, they are amazing, but they are still house rules.

Yeah... no.

Pathfinder is a game that uses the d20 system and was designed to be backwards compatible with 3.5. Nothing more or less.

Let's put it this way. Arthur Conan Doyle wrote Sherlock Holmes back in the day, and now it's public domain (OGL). So I write a book about Sherlock-- Doyle's character, mind. I publish it, make money, maybe write a few more, whatever. Who wrote the book and gets the money? Doyle or Kestral?

The answer, of course, is Kestral. But literally what you're telling me is that Doyle wrote the book, and I was a 'third party' writer.

Edited with a better example.

Sovereign Court

Azten wrote:
Pathfinder was made by a different company that used 3.5. It's nothing but a bunch of 3.5 house rules. Yes, they are amazing, but they are still house rules.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.


Cyclops + Vorpal Naginata. Crit range is "if it's within reach, it's dead"


Doomed Hero wrote:
Cyclops + Vorpal Naginata. Crit range is "if it's within reach, it's dead"

Unless they can dodge the confirmation roll!

But yes. Cyclopi cheat. If I just wanted to dick over my players though, I'd use a Scythe.

Sovereign Court

kestral287 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Cyclops + Vorpal Naginata. Crit range is "if it's within reach, it's dead"

Unless they can dodge the confirmation roll!

But yes. Cyclopi cheat. If I just wanted to dick over my players though, I'd use a Scythe.

With Vorpal the damage doesn't matter. Use the Naginata - have them get 3 levels of Samurai & get Critical Focus to have +6 to confirm crits. :P


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Cyclops + Vorpal Naginata. Crit range is "if it's within reach, it's dead"

Unless they can dodge the confirmation roll!

But yes. Cyclopi cheat. If I just wanted to dick over my players though, I'd use a Scythe.

With Vorpal the damage doesn't matter. Use the Naginata - have them get 3 levels of Samurai & get Critical Focus to have +6 to confirm crits. :P

I don't trust my players to not have a way to fight on after they lose their head.

And hey, if the Cyclops is going all-in on the trick, it would make sense for him to have a fallback for when that annoying Stone Golem comes along.

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