Unchained Eidolon overcomes opposing alignment DR at 1st level!


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The new "unchained" summoner (which is the only vfersion permitted in PFS) now has an eidolon which has a specific creature sub-type and specific alignment sub-types. For example the summoner might have an eidolon with the following type and subtype - "outsider (archon, good, lawful, extraplanar)". Now I may have misunderstood the pathfinder rules in a serious way, but as I understand it, any creature with the "good" sub-type deals damage which overcomes DR/good (and likewise for chaotic, evil and lawful subtypes). So my question is: was it the intention of the authors that under the new "unchained" rules, for example, an archon eidolon would be able to overcome DR/good and DR/lawful at 1st level? That seems to be a very big change in the context of a summoner's ability to take on outsiders of the opposing alignment - and here I'm thinking of the upcoming Hell's Rebels adventure path (or for that matter the Worldwound adventure path). As far as I can recall, at 1st level, only a Paladin would have the ability to overcome DR/good - and then only once per day with his smite evil ability. Most spells which allow weapons to overcome DR are 2nd level or higher (ie only available to characters of 3rd/4th level or higher).


It's not really a big deal, I'd imagine, as almsot nothing you'd fight at that level would have DR/good anyway.

Grand Lodge

Correction:

It gains Outsider, Extraplanar, and alignment. It does not gain archon.


Well I can think of at least 6 devils which might be confronting 1st and 2nd level adventurers in Hell's Rebels all of which have DR/good:
lemure (CR1)
Nupperibo (CR1)
Imp (CR2)
Lesser Host Devil (Gaav) CR3
Accuser Devil (Zebub) (CR3)
Accomplice Devil (Hesperian) (CR4)
And from the Worldwound there are seven demons with DR/evil (dretch, quasit, cambion, abrikandilu, vermlek, hala and schir) all of which range in CR from 2-4. Also, bear in mind that the ability to overcome DR applies not just to the natural weapons, but to all weapons wielded by a good-subtype creature - so give the eidolon weapon proficiency with a big damage weapon and it overcomes DR/evil.
To me that is a big plus in any campaign involving outsiders.


FLite wrote:

Correction:

It gains Outsider, Extraplanar, and alignment. It does not gain archon.

Not sure you are correct - page 29 of Unchained under the heading "Eidolon Subtypes" states: "the first time a summoner calls his eidolon he must decide on its subtype. The eidolons subtype determines...." The list of subtypes from which the summoner has to choose are Angel, Azata, etc. So I don't see how you can be choosing a sub-type if that is not in fact one of the eidolon's sub-types! It also gains the relevant alignment sub-types IN ADDITION as stated lower down the page. At least that is RAW as far as I read it. But lets not argue as its not really relevant to the issue of overcoming DR.

Grand Lodge

Timothy Ferdinand wrote:

Well I can think of at least 6 devils which might be confronting 1st and 2nd level adventurers in Hell's Rebels all of which have DR/good:

lemure (CR1)
Nupperibo (CR1)
Imp (CR2)
Accuser Devil (Zebub) (CR3)

These have DR X/good or silver. Anyone with a silver weapon also bypasses this. Very easy to have at level 1.

Timothy Ferdinand wrote:
And from the Worldwound there are seven demons with DR/evil (dretch, quasit, cambion, abrikandilu, vermlek, hala and schir) all of which range in CR from 2-4.

These have DR X/good or cold iron (except the abrikandilu, which doesn't have any DR). Anyone with a cold iron weapon also bypasses this. Very easy to have at level 1.

Not to mention that Oils of Bless Weapon are 50 gp each and make any one weapon Good for a minute, with the added benefit of automatically confirming crits against evil targets.

Grand Lodge

Not to mention a wand of bless weapon, which is only 2 PP to obtain.

And that first level Paladin can use, too, without any checks.

And it is only (only?) a DC 20 UMD check to activate for most others.

But the potion is usable by anyone, with only an action cost, so more reliable for the non-Paladins.


all good points, but as most eidolons get two attacks for free and usually add a third, you get three DR overcoming attacks, whilst the potion/oil only gives you one and then only once. The cold iron is a good one for use against demons, but alchemical silver is a lot more expensive and reduces the damage for slashing and piecing weapons. Silversheen is 250gp for a single use, so too expensive for 1st levellers. Overall, it does seem that a DR overcoming eidolon is quite useful (to say the least) espcially with an enlarge person spell. Compared to a druid's companion which is much more difficult to buff against DR - for example. A cold iron wielding summoner with a good aligned eidolon is going to get three/four attacks a round at first level against a demon with no DR enough to scare any low CR demon I suspect - no other class gets close......is all I'm saying :o)

Grand Lodge

An Alchemical Silver Dagger is all of 32 gp. That's not that expensive, especially if you know you're going to be facing a lot of Devils.


Cold Iron Spiked Gauntlet + Alchemical Silver Spiked Gauntlet combined run you... I think it's 35 gp?

Bypassing the DR/alignment is cool but it's not really a big deal at the low levels.

Shadow Lodge

Keep in mind though that for some characters switching to a light weapon is a bigger loss in damage than the DR is.

Power attacking barbarian with a greatsword, strength 20 in rage:

2d6+7(Str)+3(PA) = 17 avg - DR 5 = 12

vs a cold iron dagger:

d4+5(Str)+2(PA) = 9.5 avg (8.5 for silver due to the damage penalty)

The main weapon may also have properties such as reach or crit range that the backup doesn't duplicate, or the character may have weapon focus.

Also, for natural weapons builds in particular DR is both very troublesome and relatively hard to overcome. I agree that being able to bypass one kind of alignment DR is a meaningful buff.


The Barbarian can use Morningstars instead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Does this help?

"Name: This is the name of the eidolon’s subtype. The eidolon gains this as a subtype, but unless otherwise noted, it does not gain any of the features, abilities, or weaknesses of that subtype." 'Unchained p 29.


Darrell Impey UK wrote:

Does this help?

"Name: This is the name of the eidolon’s subtype. The eidolon gains this as a subtype, but unless otherwise noted, it does not gain any of the features, abilities, or weaknesses of that subtype." 'Unchained p 29.

That part refers to the subtypes that indicate kind like demon or azata, alignment subtypes are two paragraphs under that one

Grand Lodge

Timothy Ferdinand wrote:
FLite wrote:

Correction:

It gains Outsider, Extraplanar, and alignment. It does not gain archon.

Not sure you are correct - page 29 of Unchained under the heading "Eidolon Subtypes" states: "the first time a summoner calls his eidolon he must decide on its subtype. The eidolons subtype determines...." The list of subtypes from which the summoner has to choose are Angel, Azata, etc. So I don't see how you can be choosing a sub-type if that is not in fact one of the eidolon's sub-types! It also gains the relevant alignment sub-types IN ADDITION as stated lower down the page. At least that is RAW as far as I read it. But lets not argue as its not really relevant to the issue of overcoming DR.

Because under eidolon Subtype, under name, it says "this is just the name of the subtype. The Eidolon does not gain any characteristics of the subtype unless it says so under it's powers." And under Alignment it says "the eidolon gains subtypes corresponding to it's alignment."

(Paraphrasing slightly, I don't have my book open in front of me at the moment.)

Shadow Lodge

kestral287 wrote:
The Barbarian can use Morningstars instead.

He could, but now he's spending 98gp on a backup silver weapon instead of 22gp, a significant expense at 1st level. And he's still only 2.5 damage ahead of the DR-adjusted greatsword - and 2.5 below his usual damage - and with a worse crit range.

DR is not a huge deal, but it can be a pain.

Being able to ignore one or two kinds of DR with any weapons you have at no cost is nice.

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