paizo.com Recent Posts in TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a Shieldpaizo.com Recent Posts in TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a Shield2020-03-04T17:53:17Z2020-03-04T17:53:17ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldLiz Courts (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4942015-06-17T18:38:27Z2015-06-16T19:29:07Z<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Removed posts and their replies and locking thread.</span></p>Removed posts and their replies and locking thread.Liz Courts (Contributor)2015-06-16T19:29:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldTriunehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4932015-06-16T15:29:41Z2015-06-16T15:29:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thaX wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation. </p>
<p>TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry. </p>
<p>Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more than likely get the Str mod for the Main and half the Str mod for the off hand. If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC. </p>
<p>Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument point. There is a FAQ that doesn't allow for a Two Handed Weapon to be use to TWF with a Spiked Armor/Gauntlet. (Mentioned at beginning of thread) The parallel of not getting AC shield bonus when TWF seems lost for some posting here. </p>
<p>A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC. </p>
<p>I will add that this seems along the same lines as others wanting to Double wield an Earth Breaker with the Thunder and Fang feat. (Or wield one oversized one) Simply, you can't do that either. </blockquote><p>1. Who mentioned flurrying?
<p>2. Some monk archetypes lose flurry.</p>
<p>3. No one here is disputing anything prior to the sentence where you said "no one has been able to dispute any of this", so I'm not really sure what your point is. </p>
<p>4. The parallel is where you're getting lost, not everyone else. It's a parallel, not an actual rule. While in your mind it may be analagous, it's not RAW. You are arguing RAI, and in a RAW discussing that does not matter. The FAQ applies to wielded weapons. You think it should apply to shields because it seems logical to you. That's great, but it's not what the rules say.</p>thaX wrote:Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation.
TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry.
Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more...Triune2015-06-16T15:29:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldTriunehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4922015-06-16T15:21:39Z2015-06-16T15:21:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Akerlof wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Triune wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.
<br />
</blockquote><p>If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a greatsword at the same time you're flurrying, but <i>holding</i> it is different than <i>using</i> it. Same logic applies for a shield: You can hold a shield while two weapon fighting, you just don't get mechanical benefit from it because you are expending the effort that would be required to use it on extra attacks instead.
<p></blockquote><p>Couple points.
<p>1. You certainly do gain a mechanical benefit from it. You can make attacks of opportunity with it, and you can threaten with it, which comes into play if you want to flank and don't have IUS. This is super useful with reach weapons actually.</p>
<p>2. Where in the rules does it spell out your argument? Where does it say hands used to hold a shield preclude kicking, or off hand attacks in general? The <i>only</i> place that has anything close is the FAQ, which only mentions wielding weapons. It does not mention hands used for any other purpose, ergo applying it to anything else is a supposition not supported by RAW.</p>
<p>3. If I'm <i>using</i> my hands to hold two scrolls, can I kick? If yes, why does this not apply to shields, and where is the rule for that? If no, how do you explain the monk entry? What's the difference between holding and using? Is it an in game difference, or one you made up to support an argument? </p>
<p>4. People keep saying flurry. I'm not saying flurry, I'm saying unarmed strike. Unmarked strike =/= flurrying.</p>Akerlof wrote:Triune wrote:
Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.
If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a...Triune2015-06-16T15:21:39ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a Shieldcapshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4912015-06-16T14:52:00Z2015-06-16T14:52:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thaX wrote:</div><blockquote>If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC.</blockquote><p>100% agreed. That is what we have been saying all along.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">thaX wrote:</div><blockquote>Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this.</blockquote><p>No one has even tried to dispute any of it!
<div class="messageboard-quotee">thaX wrote:</div><blockquote>A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC.</blockquote><p>Well, except that. We've disputed that because it's not true. The only place the rules say you lose your Shield AC from a Shield is if you use that shield for an attack. Or, in the case of a buckler, if you use the arm that the buckler is on to attack with some other weapon.thaX wrote:If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC.
100% agreed. That is what we have been saying all along. thaX wrote:Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this.
No one has even tried to dispute any of it! thaX wrote:A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC.
Well, except that. We've disputed that because it's...caps2015-06-16T14:52:00ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldthaXhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4902015-06-16T14:46:29Z2015-06-16T14:46:29Z<p>Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation. </p>
<p>TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry. </p>
<p>Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more than likely get the Str mod for the Main and half the Str mod for the off hand. If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC. </p>
<p>Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument point. There is a FAQ that doesn't allow for a Two Handed Weapon to be use to TWF with a Spiked Armor/Gauntlet. (Mentioned at beginning of thread) The parallel of not getting AC shield bonus when TWF seems lost for some posting here. </p>
<p>A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC. </p>
<p>I will add that this seems along the same lines as others wanting to Double wield an Earth Breaker with the Thunder and Fang feat. (Or wield one oversized one) Simply, you can't do that either.</p>Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation.
TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry.
Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more than likely...thaX2015-06-16T14:46:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldAkerlof (alias of Zach Klopfleisch)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4882015-06-16T14:13:45Z2015-06-16T14:13:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Triune wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.
<br />
</blockquote><p>If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a greatsword at the same time you're flurrying, but <i>holding</i> it is different than <i>using</i> it. Same logic applies for a shield: You can hold a shield while two weapon fighting, you just don't get mechanical benefit from it because you are expending the effort that would be required to use it on extra attacks instead.Triune wrote:Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.
If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a greatsword at...Akerlof (alias of Zach Klopfleisch)2015-06-16T14:13:45ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldTriunehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4872015-06-16T13:42:04Z2015-06-16T13:42:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aelryinth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">blackbloodtroll wrote:</div><blockquote><p> The biggest mistake here, is the Shield Bonus = Attack belief.</p>
<p>There is nothing to support, that maintaining a Shield Bonus to AC, means the denial of potential attacks.</p>
<p>This is false.</p>
<p>Two kicks, does not equal lost Shield Bonus to AC.</p>
<p>It's a preposterous stance. </blockquote><p>By that stance, two kicks shouldn't interfere with wielding a Greatsword, either! Feetses is not hands, after all!
<p>Alas, you've already been ruled wrong on this point. A shield is a weapon, and must be readied like any other to perform its function. Just holding it is not enough.</p>
<p>So, your stance is indeed preposterous! :)</p>
<p>Who knew that 'don' could have so many people crowing about a loophole?</p>
<p>==Aelryinth </blockquote><p>Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.
<p>I'm relatively sure you're trolling at this point. You've made up and misapplied so many rules I can't fathom that you're not doing this either a. for fun, or b. to prove some sort of point.</p>Aelryinth wrote:blackbloodtroll wrote:The biggest mistake here, is the Shield Bonus = Attack belief.
There is nothing to support, that maintaining a Shield Bonus to AC, means the denial of potential attacks.
This is false.
Two kicks, does not equal lost Shield Bonus to AC.
It's a preposterous stance.
By that stance, two kicks shouldn't interfere with wielding a Greatsword, either! Feetses is not hands, after all! Alas, you've already been ruled wrong on this point. A shield is a weapon,...Triune2015-06-16T13:42:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4752015-06-16T04:34:52Z2015-06-16T04:34:52Z<p>Like I noted, FAQ it and move on. Easiest way to solve ALL the issues.</p>
<p>This isn't a voting game, where 000's of posts and loud voices determine what is right.</p>
<p>FAQ it, get clarity, move on.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>Like I noted, FAQ it and move on. Easiest way to solve ALL the issues.
This isn't a voting game, where 000's of posts and loud voices determine what is right.
FAQ it, get clarity, move on.
==AelryinthAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2015-06-16T04:34:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: TWF w/Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a ShieldAelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc6o&page=10?TWF-wWeapon-and-Armor-Spikes-while-wielding-a#4702015-06-17T09:26:21Z2015-06-16T04:17:51Z<p>If you need a post to clarify the question so you can FAQ, here's a repeat of the one from a couple pages ago.</p>
<p>"IF I am Two Weapon fighting with a shield on my arm, and I use something like Unarmed strike to Kick, or armor spikes, or a blade boot, or any other weapon that does not actually use my SHield Arm for my off-hand attack, do I lose my Shield bonus to AC as well?"</p>
<p>Corollary: If I hold a shield in my Vestigial Arm (Alchemist Discovery), can I two weapon fight or use a Greatsword, and keep my full Shield AC?</p>
<p>FAQ it and move on.</p>
<p>==Aelryinth</p>If you need a post to clarify the question so you can FAQ, here's a repeat of the one from a couple pages ago.
"IF I am Two Weapon fighting with a shield on my arm, and I use something like Unarmed strike to Kick, or armor spikes, or a blade boot, or any other weapon that does not actually use my SHield Arm for my off-hand attack, do I lose my Shield bonus to AC as well?"
Corollary: If I hold a shield in my Vestigial Arm (Alchemist Discovery), can I two weapon fight or use a Greatsword, and...Aelryinth (RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16)2015-06-16T04:17:51Z