TWF w / Weapon and Armor Spikes while wielding a Shield


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Like I've said many times before. IF they answer this FAQ it'll most likely prove us right. They'll change the rules or add rules if they go with something like your idea, proving that we are correct right now. Or they'll side with us showing we are correct right now. Either way we'll be right.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just not where the Shield Bonus = Attack theory came from.

I mean, it must have come to someone, and then they scoured the rules, in an attempt to prove their theory.

Probably because of all the rules that swap Shield Bonus for attack, which means its the Default Rule.

But when you rewrite the Default Rule to suit yourself, of course it looks wrong.

==Aelryinth

Do not all those involve attacking with the thing providing the Shield Bonus, or an attack utilizing the same arm as the donned item?

They involve attacking with one of your 'hands', yes? And clarify that even though you're still holding onto the shield after using it/a weapon in the same hand, you still don't get the Shield AC. Because the default rule is that if you attack with your 'off-hand', you don't get the SHield's AC. You're using it to attack.

It's a weapon and must be readied to be used like any other item like that. If it ain't readied, no shield AC.

==Aelryinth


So today I learnt that you hold your shield with the feet


We just know that prompting an answer from the devs most likely will result to an ulterior removal of options for martial characters as has always been the trend, and I'm not interested in this.

We were right all along but probably this result isn't what the devs wanted. But it seems you're totally unable to understand the difference between intent and actual result.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Entryhazard wrote:
So today I learnt that you hold your shield with the feet

And if you do, why, as long as you attack with your hands, you get to keep your full shield AC!

I'm going to start doing all my adventures flying or sitting on a Floating Disk right now!!

Is farting in my opponent's face an iterative or tertiary attack?

==Aelryinth


I know I am right because I'm arguing what the rules ARE, not what they SHOULD be, and the latter is anyone's guess anyway until some official source steps in, while the former is just reading comprehension and basic understanding of Logic

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If you need a post to clarify the question so you can FAQ, here's a repeat of the one from a couple pages ago.

"IF I am Two Weapon fighting with a shield on my arm, and I use something like Unarmed strike to Kick, or armor spikes, or a blade boot, or any other weapon that does not actually use my SHield Arm for my off-hand attack, do I lose my Shield bonus to AC as well?"

Corollary: If I hold a shield in my Vestigial Arm (Alchemist Discovery), can I two weapon fight or use a Greatsword, and keep my full Shield AC?

FAQ it and move on.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Like I noted, FAQ it and move on. Easiest way to solve ALL the issues.

This isn't a voting game, where 000's of posts and loud voices determine what is right.

FAQ it, get clarity, move on.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

The biggest mistake here, is the Shield Bonus = Attack belief.

There is nothing to support, that maintaining a Shield Bonus to AC, means the denial of potential attacks.

This is false.

Two kicks, does not equal lost Shield Bonus to AC.

It's a preposterous stance.

By that stance, two kicks shouldn't interfere with wielding a Greatsword, either! Feetses is not hands, after all!

Alas, you've already been ruled wrong on this point. A shield is a weapon, and must be readied like any other to perform its function. Just holding it is not enough.

So, your stance is indeed preposterous! :)

Who knew that 'don' could have so many people crowing about a loophole?

==Aelryinth

Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.

I'm relatively sure you're trolling at this point. You've made up and misapplied so many rules I can't fathom that you're not doing this either a. for fun, or b. to prove some sort of point.


Triune wrote:


Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.

If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a greatsword at the same time you're flurrying, but holding it is different than using it. Same logic applies for a shield: You can hold a shield while two weapon fighting, you just don't get mechanical benefit from it because you are expending the effort that would be required to use it on extra attacks instead.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation.

TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry.

Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more than likely get the Str mod for the Main and half the Str mod for the off hand. If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC.

Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument point. There is a FAQ that doesn't allow for a Two Handed Weapon to be use to TWF with a Spiked Armor/Gauntlet. (Mentioned at beginning of thread) The parallel of not getting AC shield bonus when TWF seems lost for some posting here.

A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC.

I will add that this seems along the same lines as others wanting to Double wield an Earth Breaker with the Thunder and Fang feat. (Or wield one oversized one) Simply, you can't do that either.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thaX wrote:
If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC.

100% agreed. That is what we have been saying all along.

thaX wrote:
Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this.

No one has even tried to dispute any of it!

thaX wrote:
A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC.

Well, except that. We've disputed that because it's not true. The only place the rules say you lose your Shield AC from a Shield is if you use that shield for an attack. Or, in the case of a buckler, if you use the arm that the buckler is on to attack with some other weapon.


Akerlof wrote:
Triune wrote:


Um, you can wield a greatsword and kick twice, buddy. Read the monk entry to understand why. You just can't attack with it in the same turn. Also tower shields don't count as weapons. If that's the basis of your argument, go back to the drawing board.

If you're not attacking with it, if you're not gaining any mechanical benefit from holding it, you're not wielding it. That's the core of Aelrynth's argument, you're actually making his point for him: You can hold a greatsword at the same time you're flurrying, but holding it is different than using it. Same logic applies for a shield: You can hold a shield while two weapon fighting, you just don't get mechanical benefit from it because you are expending the effort that would be required to use it on extra attacks instead.

Couple points.

1. You certainly do gain a mechanical benefit from it. You can make attacks of opportunity with it, and you can threaten with it, which comes into play if you want to flank and don't have IUS. This is super useful with reach weapons actually.

2. Where in the rules does it spell out your argument? Where does it say hands used to hold a shield preclude kicking, or off hand attacks in general? The only place that has anything close is the FAQ, which only mentions wielding weapons. It does not mention hands used for any other purpose, ergo applying it to anything else is a supposition not supported by RAW.

3. If I'm using my hands to hold two scrolls, can I kick? If yes, why does this not apply to shields, and where is the rule for that? If no, how do you explain the monk entry? What's the difference between holding and using? Is it an in game difference, or one you made up to support an argument?

4. People keep saying flurry. I'm not saying flurry, I'm saying unarmed strike. Unmarked strike =/= flurrying.


thaX wrote:

Flurry can be done with Monk weapons and can also be used with only one hand/Monk weapon. It has no bearing on this conversation.

TWF as a monk is silly, honestly. Flurry, I should remind, is different than TWF. As a Monk, I am not going to spend feats to TWF when I can already Flurry.

Here is the main underlining design philosophy. You attack with two (2) hands, at best. There are other feats/abilities that are an exception to this. If you do attack with 2 hands, you will more than likely get the Str mod for the Main and half the Str mod for the off hand. If you attack with your shield hand (a Buckler is the only Shield mentioned thus far that allow this with a weapon), you will not get the Shield bonus to AC.

Now, no one, thus far, has been able to dispute any of this. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument point. There is a FAQ that doesn't allow for a Two Handed Weapon to be use to TWF with a Spiked Armor/Gauntlet. (Mentioned at beginning of thread) The parallel of not getting AC shield bonus when TWF seems lost for some posting here.

A FAQ is simply not needed. It is clear, you attack or you use your shield for added AC.

I will add that this seems along the same lines as others wanting to Double wield an Earth Breaker with the Thunder and Fang feat. (Or wield one oversized one) Simply, you can't do that either.

1. Who mentioned flurrying?

2. Some monk archetypes lose flurry.

3. No one here is disputing anything prior to the sentence where you said "no one has been able to dispute any of this", so I'm not really sure what your point is.

4. The parallel is where you're getting lost, not everyone else. It's a parallel, not an actual rule. While in your mind it may be analagous, it's not RAW. You are arguing RAI, and in a RAW discussing that does not matter. The FAQ applies to wielded weapons. You think it should apply to shields because it seems logical to you. That's great, but it's not what the rules say.

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