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The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
If the Unchained Monk starts her Flurry of Blows with a Flying Kick, can she use Stealth during this movement to make her first attack one that comes from Stealth via Hide from Plain Sight?
I don't think it works. You can't use stealth while attacking and you're definitely attacking while you're busy performing a flurry of blows. Flying kick's description implies as much.
"This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack."
When you're hiding, you need to at least pretend you're hiding. When you're doing a flying kick, you're attacking. Flying kick itself tells you in words that couldn't be more clear that the movement part of it is part of an attack.
"This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack."
You may not attempt a stealth check because you may not use stealth while you are attacking.
Well, the way I read the rules, you start your attack as soon as you start the flying kick, even though that first part is just movement. Like I said, the rules for flying kick explicitly state that the movement is part of an attack. And when you're attacking, you can't use stealth. I don't see any language to indicate otherwise.
More language isn't needed. If you have already succeeded at a stealth check, you only "lose stealth" after you make an attack or end your turn without cover or concealment.
You're moving the goalposts. The original question was:
"If the Unchained Monk starts her Flurry of Blows with a Flying Kick, can she use Stealth during this movement to make her first attack one that comes from Stealth via Hide from Plain Sight?"
There's nothing there about already having used stealth successfully. The question was specifically about using stealth during the movement part of the flying kick. If you've already made a successfull stealth check before, you wouldn't even need Hide in Plain Sight to move toward the enemy any way you like and attack.
The original question seems to be asking if you can use the flying kick combined with HiPS to fool someone already looking at you.
Then the answer is still yes.
Stealth is a free action as part of movement. You get to move BEFORE making the attack with Flying Kick, unless you believe it gives you reach. HiPS lets you make the stealth check even if you are observed, provided shadows are around.
You keep saying that, and you keep ignoring the incredibly clear and unambiguously stated rules:
Stealth: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Flying Kick: "This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack"
The flying kick's movement is part of the attack. You can't use stealth while attacking. You can't use stealth during the movement part of flying kick. Basic logic.
They provided clarity that stealth skill is broken based on the wording, and that the line (cannot be used while attacking) actually means "you only get the first attack after using stealth, not the full attack".
You're referring to this, which has been part of the errata'd stealth rules for quite a while now:
"Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and[SIC] attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
That will work when your movement is not part of an attack, because you may use stealth during such movement, and sneak up on someone unseen. When your movement is part of the attack though, you obviously still need to respect the rule that says that you can't use stealth while attacking.
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The movement is not a charge, so you can go around corners. Moreover, at 15th level, you can actually use this twice, since this is a style strike.
At 5th level, a monk can learn one type of style strike. Whenever he makes a flurry of blows, he can designate one of his unarmed strikes as a style strike. This attack is resolved as normal, but it has an additional effect depending on the type of strike chosen. At 9th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk learns an additional style strike. He must choose which style strike to apply before the attack roll is made. At 15th level, he can designate up to two of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike, and each one can be a different type. The monk can choose from any of the following strikes.
So this can actually be a hybrid Pounce/Spring Attack:
First and Last attack is a Flying Kick, with the latter designation targeting the ground of your end position.
The line right before the one you are fixated on (Bolded) is why it would work.
Good reasoning. Works for me.
Well, not for me. Flurry of blows counts as a full attack. When you're flurrying, you're attacking. When you initiate a flying kick, you're in the process of making a full attack even during the movement part of it, and when you're attacking, you can't use stealth.
I see it in spirit much like not being able to use stealth during a charge, so I'm against it from both RAW and RAI perspective.
I see it in spirit much like not being able to use stealth during a charge, so I'm against it from both RAW and RAI perspective.
That's about the only part of your position that I feel has any persuasiveness. I don't quite agree but it makes a decent point.
On the other hand, by my preferred ROC* metric, heck yes does it work. :)
*Rule of Cool
...It's not like this is going to make monks overpowered, after all...
I'd allow it, since it's hardly an overpowered thing and casters have all the nicer stuff anyway.
I visualize it as the monk moving too fast for you to follow where the attack is going to come from.
No, this does not work.
First, Flurry of blows gives you the ability to make special form of move (up to your fast movement) as part of your full attack action.
Hips/moving in stealth requires a move action which is not possible with Flying Kicks required full attack action.
Second, movement during stealth is at half rate. Even if you were able to combine the two, being able to move up to your fast movement at a double rate is not earthshattering.
No, this does not work.
First, Flurry of blows gives you the ability to make special form of move (up to your fast movement) as part of your full attack action.
Hips/moving in stealth requires a move action which is not possible with Flying Kicks required full attack action.
Second, movement during stealth is at half rate. Even if you were able to combine the two, being able to move up to your fast movement at a double rate is not earthshattering.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
I see nothing stating move action there, so next we move into Stealth skill.
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
Bolding mine, but that clearly says it's not a move action, but any movement. Which means it works.
Raw:
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Do you know any exception to this rule, other than sniping (which is making a single ranged attack and then going back into stealth with a penalty?
You are taking a full attack, which enables you to move up to your fast movement allowance, and then attack an adjacent target.
However full attack means you cannot then move under stealth (you cannot use stealth while attacking, running, or charging).
Ie., you cannot use stealth while moving in your full attack action.
I remember there is a trait or racial trait that allows you to run at a -20, but I can't find it. I know of Fast Stealth Rogue Talent that makes you move at full speed. I know of a Vigilante talent called Sure footed with allows full speed for Stealth and Acro, and later on Difficult terrain.
As for attacking, I don't know of any, but I also only count it as attacking when you are making your attack roll. Furthermore, as pointed out earlier:
The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.
The movement happens before attacks and in between them. You are not attacking by moving. Rules that show this:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
As shown by these, the attack itself isn't the full attack, but the attack roll. That is when you are attacking. Which allows a Ninja to start an FRA, attack once, swift action vanishing trick, and attack a second time. You can stealth in between attacks.
I don't see anything in your post that changes anything.
"This movement is made as part of the monk's flurry of blows ATTACK
It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging
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I don't see anything in your post that changes anything.
"This movement is made as part of the monk's flurry of blows ATTACK
It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging
To most it seems pretty clear that:
[b]Before[b] the attack, the monk can move...
and if the monk can move before the attack, the monk can stealth before the attack.
The ability should have said “part of the monk’s flurry of blows action” but it doesn’t so we have these two ways of interpretations.
Right. I would have no problem if the ability said before the attack.
However, as worded, it is rather identical to a dervish dance, a spring attack... the movement is part of the attack.
I fully understand that one can make an attack and then decide to either move or convert to a full attack.
But thats not whats happening here; which is why those posts are not applicable.
The ability says "This movement is made as part of a monk's flurry of blows ATTACK and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks."
More or less this lets the monk attack, move, attack, move, attack.
How in the world is this NOT during a full attack - and how in the world do you ignore "it is impossible to use stealth while attacking."
I understand if you were using sniping - but thats the only exception that comes to mind - and clearly that does not apply.
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Right. I would have no problem if the ability said before the attack.
However, as worded, it is rather identical to a dervish dance, a spring attack... the movement is part of the attack.I fully understand that one can make an attack and then decide to either move or convert to a full attack.
But thats not whats happening here; which is why those posts are not applicable.
The ability says "This movement is made as part of a monk's flurry of blows ATTACK and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks."
More or less this lets the monk attack, move, attack, move, attack.
How in the world is this NOT during a full attack - and how in the world do you ignore "it is impossible to use stealth while attacking."
I understand if you were using sniping - but thats the only exception that comes to mind - and clearly that does not apply.
Most people view an attack as the specific moment in time during which the attack roll is made. Why else would they need to add charging in there if that full round action was already covered by “attacking”? Because of this view, any movement between/before/after attack rolls is eligible for a stealth check (as long as conditions allow stealth).
More language isn't needed. If you have already succeeded at a stealth check, you only "lose stealth" after you make an attack or end your turn without cover or concealment.You're moving the goalposts. The original question was:
"If the Unchained Monk starts her Flurry of Blows with a Flying Kick, can she use Stealth during this movement to make her first attack one that comes from Stealth via Hide from Plain Sight?"
There's nothing there about already having used stealth successfully. The question was specifically about using stealth during the movement part of the flying kick. If you've already made a successfull stealth check before, you wouldn't even need Hide in Plain Sight to move toward the enemy any way you like and attack.
The original question seems to be asking if you can use the flying kick combined with HiPS to fool someone already looking at you.
A stealth check can be made as part of movement, and a flying kick is movement.
Once stealthed, you remain stealthed until the first attack resolves.
Most people view an attack as the specific moment in time during which the attack roll is made. Why else would they need to add charging in there if that full round action was already covered by “attacking”? Because of this view, any movement between/before/after attack rolls is eligible for a stealth check (as long as conditions allow stealth).Right. I would have no problem if the ability said before the attack.
However, as worded, it is rather identical to a dervish dance, a spring attack... the movement is part of the attack.I fully understand that one can make an attack and then decide to either move or convert to a full attack.
But thats not whats happening here; which is why those posts are not applicable.
The ability says "This movement is made as part of a monk's flurry of blows ATTACK and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks."
More or less this lets the monk attack, move, attack, move, attack.
How in the world is this NOT during a full attack - and how in the world do you ignore "it is impossible to use stealth while attacking."
I understand if you were using sniping - but thats the only exception that comes to mind - and clearly that does not apply.
In this case, Tommy happens to be correct. Flying kick is both an attack and a movement.
"This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action."While the movement would absolutely allow for stealth, the fact that it is also an attack action precludes stealth (unless an ruling allowing a flying kick exception is made).
A stealth check can be made as part of movement, and a flying kick is movement.
You can make a stealth check as part of some kinds of movement. You cannot during charging or running for example. You can not wile moving under direct observation without concealment.
Generally speaking, you can take a stealth check as part of a move action.
However, none of that applies here. You are taking a full attack action, and the rule is clear "it is impossible to use stealth while attacking."
Even if your movement quote applied, under the rules, prevents trump allows, unless you have a specific exception.
Example:
Normally you may only make a 5 ft step and a full attack action. Flying kick is a specific exception to that.
Normally, you may not attack while in stealth. Sniping is a specific exception. Flying kick does not have that kind of exception, you may not.
As for
Once stealthed, you remain stealthed until the first attack resolves.
If you started within reach to someone, and you were stealth, yes, stealth would apply to your first attack.
Otherwise, slealth ends under any number of circumstances - such as when you choose to end it, when you lose concealement, or when you take an action that is incompatible with it.
I don't think the full attack action is itself an attack though.
If you hold that belief, its a question of what do you find more persuasive
Your interpretation says a monk should be able to as a flying kick
Attack
move 5ft stealth
Attak
move 5ft stealth
Attack
move 5ft stealth.
If you rule that way - your rule is inconsistent. Why is stealth during a charge illegal then? Following your idea it is only movement with an attack. You should be able to move and then attack.
And yet you can't.
Fundamentally, making a stealth check, in my opinion, means behaving and acting in a way consistent with stealth. It means looking for concealment, moving slowly and silently. (for example remember the penalty for moving at full speed).
Jumping high into the air, probably making a Heeeyah, with a charged up elemental fist doesn't sound like it is acting consistently with stealth.
Anyway, I was going to go into a long rules quote about what attack actions mean, (an attack is one resolution of a lot of bobbing and weaving and feinting in a round remember).. but I'm not that invested in the argument.
I don't think the full attack action is itself an attack though.
A full attack action is one action that allows for multiple attacks. Any movement done as part of that full attack action is by definition 'while attacking.'
Just like charge is one action (both movement and attack), which is why you can't charge and stealth during the movement.
Then if the monk were invisible, would his invisibility dispel before he reached the target of his flying kick, because he started an attack?
Invisibility has its own rules which are a special edge case governed by the rules of invisibility.
Explicit trumps general, and explicit rules for flying kick and explicit rules for invisibility do not apply to each other.
If you cast dispel magic, does it stop the ability to make a flying kick?
The point was that the full attack action is not an attack.
The point was that the full attack action is not an attack.
That is a very good point. Actually I'm not 100% certain. My gut says you shouldn't be able to stealth as part of a full attack action but no, I'm not 100% sure.
With a normal move and attack its pretty clear.
Break stealth.
Victim gets to make a perception check at the point most favorable to him (most likely right before the assault). Fail, and he loses dex to AC.
Likewise stealth ends on an attack roll.
Nonetheless, the question of is a full attack action an attack probably isn't the deciding question.
Isn't the question more: Is the monks flurry of blows an attack?
"This movement is made as part of a monk's flurry of blows attack."
But more importantly, perhaps,
"... a monk can learn one type of style strike. Whenever he makes a flurry of blows, he can designate one of his unarmed strikes as a style strike. This attack is resolved as normal, but it has an additional effect depending on the type of strike chosen.
You learn a strike (which sounds like an attack). You designate an unarmed strike (which is an attack) and the strike is called an attack.
All that said, it is certainly not clear what the correct answer is.