Mauler bat familiar


Rules Questions


So a bat familiar has a str of 1 a dex of 15 and a con of 6
with a 16 skill of fly

What would happen if it changes to medium size using battle form
(assume lv 3)

thank you
Thunder_TBT

Grand Lodge

First, its strength actually starts at 2 thanks to its "Increased Strength (Ex)" ability.

Second, going to medium changes it to the following:
Str 10, Dex 11, Con 6. Fly +8.


From the polymorph table the bat (diminutive) would get a +6 to str and a -4 to dex. It would get an additional +2 STR for the battle form power.

It would also have +1 STR all the time from the increased strength mauler ability.

This would get it 10 STR and 11 Dex. Con would be unchanged, fly skill would drop by 2 due to lower dex.

Grand Lodge

Dave Justus wrote:

From the polymorph table the bat (diminutive) would get a +6 to str and a -4 to dex. It would get an additional +2 STR for the battle form power.

It would also have +1 STR all the time from the increased strength mauler ability.

This would get it 10 STR and 11 Dex. Con would be unchanged, fly skill would drop by 2 due to lower dex.

No, Fly drops by 8. Diminutive creatures get a +6 to Fly, while Medium creatures don't.


Dave Justus wrote:

From the polymorph table the bat (diminutive) would get a +6 to str and a -4 to dex. It would get an additional +2 STR for the battle form power.

It would also have +1 STR all the time from the increased strength mauler ability.

This would get it 10 STR and 11 Dex. Con would be unchanged, fly skill would drop by 2 due to lower dex.

hum... thanks

I always thought you got a little more strength from Diminutive to tiny instead of +2 a always thought it was +4 and I thought a tiny animal got +8 from battle form so a Diminutive animal would get +10
ah well i guess it is not by the monster creation size chart

Thunder_TBT

Grand Lodge

It's by the Polymorph chart, not the Monster Advancement Chart (which is only used by GMs to advance monsters). Note that the post you quoted is missing the extra -6 to Fly because of the size change, so the net result is -8 to the bat's initial Fly (leaving you with a total of +8).


Jeff Merola wrote:
It's by the Polymorph chart, not the Monster Advancement Chart (which is only used by GMs to advance monsters). Note that the post you quoted is missing the extra -6 to Fly because of the size change, so the net result is -8 to the bat's initial Fly (leaving you with a total of +8).

I knew about the -8 total

but where can i find the Polymorph chart?
Thanks
THunder_TBT


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About 2/5 of the way down in the Magic section, under Transmutation/Polymorph.


That chart only goes to Small...So there is still a small to medium gap.

How does that adjust?

Grand Lodge

FallzQuick wrote:

That chart only goes to Small...So there is still a small to medium gap.

How does that adjust?

It doesn't actually have a gap. Small to medium (or medium to small) have no stat adjustments, beyond the standard size bonuses/penalties to AC, CMB, CMD and the like.


FallzQuick wrote:

That chart only goes to Small...So there is still a small to medium gap.

How does that adjust?

It doesn't. The polymorph chart is a reference to help guide how size-changing magic affects creatures that are not small or medium, since size-changing magic always tells you what happens when you start as small or medium.


So if i were a gnome and cast enlarge person I'd become medium and not gain the 2 str and lose the 2 dex?

Grand Lodge

Enlarge Person isn't a polymorph spell, and even if it was, that chart is only used when a polymorph spell is used on a non-small, non-medium character. You apply the table AND the spell's listed effects in that case.


Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 –6 — Small
Diminutive +6 –4 — Small
Tiny +4 –2 — Small
Large –4 +2 –2 Medium
Huge –8 +4 –4 Medium
Gargantuan –12 +4 –6 Medium
Colossal –16 +4 –8 Medium

The chart clearly lacks Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium. However I'd assume it would go to the Small adjustment and from Small to Medium there is no change to ability scores. Thus the +6 str, -4 Dex.

After rereading the polymorph section it seems more clear. However Small to Medium is still an assumption guided by this quote.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

By RAW there is no Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium, thus no actual ability score difference from size. Obviously not RAI...

Yet Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium is still omitted. Perhaps that is the clarification wanted and seems to be unrepresented. it is very clear on Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Small.

In addition no where does the Battle form state it is a polymorph or transmutation effect, it does say it transforms.

Battle Form (Su): At 3rd level, a mauler gains the ability to transform into a larger, more ferocious form and back at will. In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and the mauler gains a +2 bonus to Strength (this stacks with the normal Strength adjustments for increasing in size). This ability replaces deliver touch spells.


so the size increase chart i am reading

Dim - Tiny: +2 Str - 2 Dex
Tiny - Small: +4 Str - 2 Dex
Small - Med: +4 Str - 2 Dex +2 Con

total mods for your bat before familiar and ability

+10 Str - 6 Dex and +2 Con


Koshimo wrote:

so the size increase chart i am reading

Dim - Tiny: +2 Str - 2 Dex
Tiny - Small: +4 Str - 2 Dex
Small - Med: +4 Str - 2 Dex +2 Con

total mods for your bat before familiar and ability

+10 Str - 6 Dex and +2 Con

plus 2 str from the ability which it states gives an additional +2 str which stacks as it states.

so 12 str -6 dex and +2 con.

Also the Mauler's first ability.

Increased Strength (Ex): At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a mauler’s Strength score increases by 1. As a result of this ability, the familiar’s Intelligence score remains 6; a mauler can never have an Intelligence score higher than 6.

At level 3 when it gains Battle form would be +13 str

Unless you go off polymorph chart then it is +9 Str (6 size, 2 battleform bonus, +1 increased str (EX))


Koshimo wrote:

so the size increase chart i am reading

Dim - Tiny: +2 Str - 2 Dex
Tiny - Small: +4 Str - 2 Dex
Small - Med: +4 Str - 2 Dex +2 Con

total mods for your bat before familiar and ability

+10 Str - 6 Dex and +2 Con

Wrong chart. That's for creating new monster. You aren't doing that you're changing something, so you look at the polymorph table.


FallzQuick wrote:

Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size

Fine +6 –6 — Small
Diminutive +6 –4 — Small
Tiny +4 –2 — Small
Large –4 +2 –2 Medium
Huge –8 +4 –4 Medium
Gargantuan –12 +4 –6 Medium
Colossal –16 +4 –8 Medium

The chart clearly lacks Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium. However I'd assume it would go to the Small adjustment and from Small to Medium there is no change to ability scores. Thus the +6 str, -4 Dex.

After rereading the polymorph section it seems more clear. However Small to Medium is still an assumption guided by this quote.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

By RAW there is no Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium, thus no actual ability score difference from size. Obviously not RAI...

Yet Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Medium is still omitted. Perhaps that is the clarification wanted and seems to be unrepresented. it is very clear on Fine or Diminutive or Tiny to Small.

In addition no where does the Battle form state it is a polymorph or transmutation effect, it does say it transforms.

Battle Form (Su): At 3rd level, a mauler gains the ability to transform into a larger, more ferocious form and back at will. In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and the mauler gains a +2 bonus to Strength (this stacks with the normal Strength adjustments for increasing in size). This ability replaces deliver touch spells.

If you read the section you'd see that it says if the creature is smaller than small, or larger than large, apply the changes on the table before applying the effects of the polymorph.

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