PFS: Eidolon with multiple arms


Pathfinder Society

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As the title suggests, a Pathfinder Society question.

I was wondering if I make an eidolon with multiple arms (4) wielding weapons, if it was possible to take Multiweapon attack? I know that the Additional Resources specifies that all feats from the Beastiary are not legal for players, familiars, or animal companions, but I was wondering if this covered Eidolons as well? If so, I presume it is a waste to ever take multiple sets of arms, making a shiva style angel/azata impossible in PFS.

Am I correct in assuming this is not legal for Pathfinder Society?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Grab your copy of the Advanced Players Guide. See the section on Summoners? Tear out every single page, because the PFS ship for that class has sailed.

The only legal rules for playing a Summoner in PFS are in the Pathfinder Unchained! book.

As far as the old rules went, if you had checked the Eidolon table, you would see that they get Multi-Attack as a free feat at level 9. That is true for the UnChained! variety as well.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

This IS with the Unchained Summoner. Limbs (arms) is a 2 point evolution, attainable for a first level character (taking extra evolutions feat). A serpentine Azata has no claws but 2 arms, martial weapon proficiency, and a single feat. Taking the extra limbs gives it 4 arms. This is legal outside of PFS. I'm trying to clarify if it is legal inside of it.


The feats are only legal if explicitly granted in another source. They weren't legal for eidolons before unchained. I'm not aware of anything in unchained that would make them available.

You could theoretically quad-wield without the feats, though the penalties are overly severe.


d20PFSRD wrote:
"Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats."

They can take any feat they qualify for, and multiweapon attack only requires Dex 13 and three or more arms. Serpentine eidolons start with Dex 16, and taking the extra evolution would give it three or more arms. Go for it. :)


Rennaivx wrote:
d20PFSRD wrote:
"Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats."
They can take any feat they qualify for, and multiweapon attack only requires Dex 13 and three or more arms. Serpentine eidolons start with Dex 16, and taking the extra evolution would give it three or more arms. Go for it. :)

That's a dangerous loophole. Using that logic your Eidolon could get all of the feats banned in PFS. I would expect a lot of table rejection with that one.

Grand Lodge ****

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Melkiador wrote:
Rennaivx wrote:
d20PFSRD wrote:
"Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats."
They can take any feat they qualify for, and multiweapon attack only requires Dex 13 and three or more arms. Serpentine eidolons start with Dex 16, and taking the extra evolution would give it three or more arms. Go for it. :)
That's a dangerous loophole. Using that logic your Eidolon could get all of the feats banned in PFS. I would expect a lot of table rejection with that one.

There's no loophole here. That's the general rule for eidolons and in no way overrides the PFS restrictions.


I wasn't aware of any special restriction on feats from the Bestiary for PFS. My bad.


It's not so much a restrictions as that the feats section of the Bestiary isn't legal, unless you are explicitly allowed to use it from another source. To be fair, I do believe the quoted text was supposed to fulfill that purpose, but I'm not sure if it was explicit enough.


So yeah, "banned" wasn't the right word to use above. It's more like "omitted". So, you could argue that the Eidolon could take any feat that's been omitted from legality in PFS. Which probably is a short list.

Grand Lodge ****

For PFS "explicitly allowed from another source" requires it to be stated by name. The Eidolon's text doesn't qualify any more than the general player rule of being able to take what they qualify for.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

And the wording on Bestiary PFS is "Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; " Doesn't say anything about Eidolons. So are eidolons not mentioned by accident or on purpose?

Grand Lodge ****

It's never been changed, but it doesn't really matter. It'd have to mention that eidolons could take them, so the omission is the same as "none of these are legal for eidolons".

Scarab Sages

Since this is for PFS specific legality per Additonal Resources, and not a general rules question, flagged to be moved to PFS forum.

Regarding the question, I would rule that Multiweapon Attack is not available to Ediolons, as they do not have a specific exemption for gaining the feat like they do for multiattack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Keep also in mind that you do have a ceiling for the maximum number of attacks as defined by Eidolon level. Using weapons does not allow you to get over that.

Grand Lodge ****

That's a good thing to note, yes, since it's another difference between the APG and Unchained Summoners.

Shadow Lodge *

As I read it, it seems legal. Still, it seems like it should be an faq so that's what I did. I will say the differences in interpretation could come down to whether you see an eidilon as more akin to a cohort or an animal companion and this often comes down to play styles.

It leads to another question. Could s 4 armed eidilon duel wield bows/crossbows.

Liberty's Edge *

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Bradley Mickle wrote:
And the wording on Bestiary PFS is "Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; " Doesn't say anything about Eidolons. So are eidolons not mentioned by accident or on purpose?

That section of the Additional Resources was written before the APG came out and has not been rewritten since. Given that Summoner was made for the APG and did not exist as a Class before that, Eidolon also did not exist when that entry of the Additional Resources was written. I personally would not allow it unless you can point out a specific exception. That means you would need a resource that says you Eidolon can pick that Feat specifically. That is how I see this, and I am generally bordering on overly permissive.

YMMV

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
graywulfe wrote:
Bradley Mickle wrote:
And the wording on Bestiary PFS is "Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; " Doesn't say anything about Eidolons. So are eidolons not mentioned by accident or on purpose?

That section of the Additional Resources was written before the APG came out and has not been rewritten since. Given that Summoner was made for the APG and did not exist as a Class before that, Eidolon also did not exist when that entry of the Additional Resources was written. I personally would not allow it unless you can point out a specific exception. That means you would need a resource that says you Eidolon can pick that Feat specifically. That is how I see this, and I am generally bordering on overly permissive.

YMMV

I will point out that Beast 1 was written prior to summoners, but Beast 2, Beast 3 and Beast 4 were all written after. None of them make any mention of eidolon being restricted. I could see a simple copy/paste error once, but not 3 times.

Also, eidolons are not normal creatures. They are monsters. To me, that screams that they meet the biggest requirement of the monster feats, being monsters.

I know I am in the minority in this interpretation, but that is how I read it.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

I look at what Dafydd said about Eidolons being more akin to monsters than normal creatures and personally agree. But I've never seen a ruling one way or the other. An eidolon would only get the max attacks, which makes perfect sense and wasn't really in question for me. But it would be far more efficient, and for me, kind of neat, to have a multiarmed shiva-style attacker, then using 3 feats to get 6 attacks at later levels (ie two weapon fighting, imp, etc).

Additionally, having blocked out all of the monstrous feats, blocks out things like Hover, Wingover, Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack (both of which can also be obtained via evolutions). I personally think they should be allowed, but suspect that they aren't. Kinda hoping for a clarification now that we have the Unchained that limits what certain types of Eidolons can do (Bipedal Azata and Angels, for instance, have little combat options as they can't have claws, tails, tentacles, pincers, gore, or bites)

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Memphis aka Mulgar

LazarX wrote:

Grab your copy of the Advanced Players Guide. See the section on Summoners? Tear out every single page, because the PFS ship for that class has sailed.

The only legal rules for playing a Summoner in PFS are in the Pathfinder Unchained! book.

As far as the old rules went, if you had checked the Eidolon table, you would see that they get Multi-Attack as a free feat at level 9. That is true for the UnChained! variety as well.

So, you do know he could be playing a grandfathered apg summoner and just doing an eidolon rebuild.....

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rennaivx wrote:
d20PFSRD wrote:
"Feats: This is the total number of feats possessed by an eidolon. Eidolons can select any feat they qualify for, but they must possess the appropriate appendages to use some feats."
They can take any feat they qualify for, and multiweapon attack only requires Dex 13 and three or more arms. Serpentine eidolons start with Dex 16, and taking the extra evolution would give it three or more arms. Go for it. :)

This line does not give specific allowances to use a feat from the Bestiary. It still has to be a legal feat.

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Keep also in mind that you do have a ceiling for the maximum number of attacks as defined by Eidolon level. Using weapons does not allow you to get over that.

The maximum attack is to limit the number of attack evolutions the Eidolon can have. The last sentence specifically days that weapons dont count against the max.

Grand Lodge ****

Andrew Christian wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Keep also in mind that you do have a ceiling for the maximum number of attacks as defined by Eidolon level. Using weapons does not allow you to get over that.
The maximum attack is to limit the number of attack evolutions the Eidolon can have. The last sentence specifically days that weapons dont count against the max.

We are talking about the Unchained Summoner, so you are incorrect.

Quote:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum.

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah very good. In another argument regarding an APG summoner that's been grandfathered who has tried to use TWF, ITWF, six arms and a bite to get 9 attacks.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

In my case, I'm building a new summoner. I would like an azata because it fits thematically (my character is chaotic good so azata fits best). I would like a multi-armed eidolon; again it fits with my prankster/jongleur personality. In combat, that would make the most effective way for him to still be worthy would be with multi-weapon fighting.

Getting multiattack would do nothing for a creature that doesn't have natural weapons, as is the case for my exampled eidolon.

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That is true. Unfortunately, MWF is not available to PCs right now.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

Then I'd like to say that good aligned summoners got screwed. I was also looking into this chat too.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

I just realized you also can't even make a hound archon. Summoner Archons aren't allowed bite attacks.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Bradley Mickle wrote:
Then I'd like to say that good aligned summoners got screwed. I was also looking into this chat too.

I still stand by my assertion in that thread, at least until we get an answer. (Also, it's not really like that thread is an unchained specific thing. APG summoner had the exact same problem.)

Re screwed:

Agathion: Gets lay on hands as a paladin of it's hit dice, something no other Eidolon *can* get.

Angels: okay, angels are possibly suboptimal compared to the rest of the eidolons, they do get better resistances, but it is a game of russian roulet whether their resistances are the ones the enemy uses. That said, they can cover most of them.

Archon: Gets +1 evo pool, and +1 ability increase. Thats +3 Evo points, +5 if you are size large. Okay, you can't build a hound archon, but maybe that just means hound archons don't like lending their aspect to summoners, there are plenty of other archons.

Azata: at first level you get a free 4 point offensive evolution. You get to go either strength primary or dexterity primary, and either case you get arms for free.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

The more permissive reading would let it take leadership.

You can't take leadership.

So you can't take multi attack.

*** Venture-Agent, Iowa—Waukee

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Azata getting weapon prof, arms, legs, and resistance electricity. That's 9 evolution points at creation. Demons, for instance, arms, legs, claws, resist fire, resist electricity, and +4 poison resistance (which has no point value). That's 7 plus whatever the poison resistance would be. Considering the extra cost of having to have weapons for your summon, I don't think that's a huge plus in it's favor.

Perhaps later they gain some good benefits, but that still seems to force the player into picking the serpentine version and using primarily tail slap? My point there would be if you play one of the three good aligned summons, you are extremely limited on what you can create.

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Bradley Mickle wrote:

Azata getting weapon prof, arms, legs, and resistance electricity. That's 9 evolution points at creation. Demons, for instance, arms, legs, claws, resist fire, resist electricity, and +4 poison resistance (which has no point value). That's 7 plus whatever the poison resistance would be. Considering the extra cost of having to have weapons for your summon, I don't think that's a huge plus in it's favor.

Perhaps later they gain some good benefits, but that still seems to force the player into picking the serpentine version and using primarily tail slap? My point there would be if you play one of the three good aligned summons, you are extremely limited on what you can create.

Or you're forced into the four-legged variety with natural weapons. I am disappointed in this reading as well. Otherwise, why bother with the Azata? You're good for maybe 2 levels, then bleaugh. Clearly they are not a fan of Summoners. First Unchained, then this. C'mon PFS, give us CG-aligned Summoners a break! There are many MANY examples of PC's being WAY OP in Pfs vs this nerf. I've seen some really ridiculous examples. And yet, no love for the Summoner. Twice.

Also bummed about reach evolution being sketchy with manufactured weapons. No clarification about that either. Personally? I think it's lazy not to clarify. It would take all of 2 minutes to decide one way or the other.

Silver Crusade **

I don't think there is going to be any clarification since, you necro'd a thread over a year old.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The way it works (as far as I can tell) is: Each week the developers answer the one question with the most requests or the most urgency.

This requires them to meet with everyone who could be effected by the change (the developers and whoever wrote the thing being asked about.) They discuss the consequences of the change. They may or may not go back to the forums and ask for opinions. (In at least one case, this resulted in a 200 post long thread.) They read the various opinions about how it would work.

A lot more than 2 minutes work goes into it.

***

Bradley Mickle wrote:
Then I'd like to say that good aligned summoners got screwed. I was also looking into this chat too.

Honestly, if we're comparing alignments then it seems like the Lawful Eidolonw get it bad. None of them have spectacular abilities, and they're locked out of the vast majority of natural weapon evolutions. So you want to go weapon wielder, but now you have to pay a feat or evolution tax. Inevitables are the worst example, gaining nothing but scaling situational saves that eventually become immunities.

Good Eidolons are...hard to rate. It's hard to evaluate Lay on Hands, but I do like the spirit of it. Giving the Eidolon at least one Mercy would have been nice though. Azatas singlehandedly make the Good alignment amazing thanks to their focused bonuses. They also have, IMO, the only Serpentine form that's remarkable before level 8.

I's still love to play a Good Aligned non Azata some time. But it's going to be after I exaust a ton of options that just flow better with the Chaotic side of things.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Rosc wrote:
Bradley Mickle wrote:
Then I'd like to say that good aligned summoners got screwed. I was also looking into this chat too.

Honestly, if we're comparing alignments then it seems like the Lawful Eidolonw get it bad. None of them have spectacular abilities, and they're locked out of the vast majority of natural weapon evolutions. So you want to go weapon wielder, but now you have to pay a feat or evolution tax. Inevitables are the worst example, gaining nothing but scaling situational saves that eventually become immunities.

Good Eidolons are...hard to rate. It's hard to evaluate Lay on Hands, but I do like the spirit of it. Giving the Eidolon at least one Mercy would have been nice though. Azatas singlehandedly make the Good alignment amazing thanks to their focused bonuses. They also have, IMO, the only Serpentine form that's remarkable before level 8.

I's still love to play a Good Aligned non Azata some time. But it's going to be after I exaust a ton of options that just flow better with the Chaotic side of things.

I'll agree that chaotic definitely has some cool stuff going on. I wouldn't rule out the Protean serpentine form by the way. you can always buy constrict early and then sell it back when you get it for free at level 8, leaving you with one of the few ways to legally get the final embrace feat chain in PFS anymore. (Which with a vicious AoMF lets you debuff very nicely. Shaken + sickened for -4 to most rolls...)

***

"Jared Thaler wrote:

I'll agree that chaotic definitely has some cool stuff going on. I wouldn't rule out the Protean serpentine form by the way. you can always buy constrict early and then sell it back when you get it for free at level 8, leaving you with one of the few ways to legally get the final embrace feat chain in PFS anymore. (Which with a vicious AoMF lets you debuff very nicely. Shaken + sickened for -4 to most rolls...)

Sadly, the Final Embrace line was changed in the Ultimate Combat Nerf. A character only qualifies they have a "natural" Constrict ability. The nature of Evolutions opens this up to a little bit of table variation, so it's dodgey for something like PFS.

Also, I stand by Azatas being the only great serpents early on. Proteans get grapple based evolutions, but they've got a high dexterity/low strength chassis. So you pay the Agile Manuevers feat tax, right? Nope. At level 8, you'll be taking the Large Size Evolution to make grabbing more viable, and that swings your stats to make strength higher than dexterity.

Azatas have similar issues, but at least their Tail is a primary weapon and their free Arms means you can evolve them into an amazing skill monkey when your Evolution points are sparse and you need something for it to do at low levels.

Thematically speaking Protean is my favorite subtype, but its mechanics are chunky. Thankfully, it's all salvaged by the Morphic Savant archetype, which allows you to play with base forms and actually perform well before 8.

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