For myself, as well as the people I game with we roll dice exclusively. We hate point buys, but that is the style of play we prefer. Do we get sucktastic rolls from time to time? You bet we do, but overall we have decent characters. The roll system we use is 4d6 drop the lowest and assign them where we want. If there are two rolls 9 or under then they get to reroll one stat.
For stats, you sometimes get interesting combos that you would never wind up with normally, like a 13 intelligence on a sorcerer.
For one off games and short term games, I prefer the randomness of rolling. I like the challenge of playing an effective character with random stats.
For long term campaigns, I prefer point buy. I don't like having someone get stuck with a comparatively weak or mediocre character for long periods of time. Give everyone point buy and they all at least have the same stats.
This ^^ !!
Sometimes, back in 3.0 or 3.5, we'd have everyone roll up a stat array, then anyone can choose to use any rolled array.
Lead to a bit more power, and players had the option to have exactly the same stats as others at the table if they wanted to.
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I am my group's main GM, which means I hardly get to play. I am also my group's main Rules Lawyer/Optimizer. This means that I'm helping characters become fleshed out, giving advice, and generally watching as other people get to play the hero, while I'm stuck behind NPCs. This means that on those RARE occasions I do get to play... I can't make any decision. I can list about 25 different character ideas of what I really really really want to play right this instance, and I could not pick one to save my life.
So I prefer rolling stats to help me narrow down this list of "forgotten" dreams :).
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i started forcing pointbuy, man i got so much flak for that. they kept saying that point buy (20) was too low, and i'm just sitting there going... you don't need an 18 in my campaign's power level.I also hate low point buy. XD I run my games 30 points 1:1 ratio. With low point buy you limit character concepts so hard. That monk and that cleric just cannot exist on this points. I could barely get a decent Warpriest :/ Not saying you're wrong XD just that I like a campaign where I'm suitable heroic. Not some commoner scrub who lucked into a big boy class.
Just running a couple potential arrays built that way and seeing what the standard point buy equivalent is, I calculated:
Straight 15s -- 42 standard weighted point equivalent buy
18,15,15,14,14,14 -- 46
18,18,18,16,10,10 -- 61
18,18,18,18,10,8 -- 66
Wow.
...
You could also go for a kitsune sorcerer with STR 8 DEX 8 CON 8 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 52 at level 1.
I am not going to even try the math on that one.
I tend to find that point buy encourages cookie cutter stat blocks, and on average is now punishing to MAD classes. Admittedly, I do implement weighted rolling systems as a GM which skews power upward, and I know that's not for everyone.
I also find point buy a little unintuitive. As others mentioned earlier in the thread, it bugs me that points are not one for one. Sure, the 30 points 1:1 is probably excessive, but I dunno why you couldn't at least set a point value which would allow for similar arrays to the current system on a one for one basis.
I tend to find that point buy encourages cookie cutter stat blocks, and on average is now punishing to MAD classes. Admittedly, I do implement weighted rolling systems as a GM which skews power upward, and I know that's not for everyone.
I also find point buy a little unintuitive. As others mentioned earlier in the thread, it bugs me that points are not one for one. Sure, the 30 points 1:1 is probably excessive, but I dunno why you couldn't at least set a point value which would allow for similar arrays to the current system on a one for one basis.
I find a class being MAD is punished regardless unless you roll well across the board, which for me rarely happens.
I dunno. Point buy encourages strait 14s down the board, monks can do a lot with that. Fighters not so much.
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I try to steer away from this kind of thinking but I feel like this is a oldschool/newschool paradigm at work. I imagine a majority of us older gamers prefer randomly rolled stats because that's the game we played as kids. We still had fun, we still RP'd the hell out of those characters, and we didn't feel subpar. The focus was on the character, noT the character's stats.
I can understand the value of having a balanced party, stat-wise. I don't have any particular critique of point-buy other than it is a bit boring in my opinion. On these forums and in some games I've played, I find that point buy often leads to a desire for higher and higher point buy games, which builds super-characters. If that's what you're into, great. Personally I like my low-level characters to feel somewhat vulnerable because it makes my heart pump a little harder. As the levels go by you get better gear and enhancements which close the gap between zero and hero.
So to answer the OP -- there is some nostalgic value and there is RP value (you have to work a little harder when you're not a optimized-stat PC)...value to some of us at least.
I also see point buy v. Rolling for stats helping set the tone of the game. If everyone does it as a group, rolling for stats is a lot more fun, it encourages people talking about what they rolled, figuring out what classes it can work for, and everyone builds a group together. There is often more organic character growth as well, the charater isn't planned for 20 levels, and then built using only what is available at that particular level. The players also tend to be more prepared for the character to die, as they know going in that randomness is going to play a key factor in the story, and that can include death. Point buy pretty much encourages people to maybe ask what class/role people plan to cover, and then everyone shows up with a finished sheet....
nothing about rolling actually makes the class planning less possible, it just determines how MAD or SAD your class should be. most stats requirements are within reach by at least a level or 2 with rolling and at the very least you can gain a headband or belt and then retrain.
I play online, and people are still allowed to roll for stats (though the rolls are not straight 4d6d1 since i'm trying to ween off dice rolls) people that roll still just plug it in and figure out their stuff. many people have a class chosen and planned prior to rolling.
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My current opinion on rolled stats versus point buy is that they serve different gameplay methods.
With point buy, you're guaranteed to get the stats you want, so you have the freedom to pick a character concept first, then arrange the stats as needed to support that concept. Whatever type of character you envision, you can establish the necessary stats. In this way, point buy enables a "concept first" method of character creation.
With rolled stats, you don't have that level of control. You might come up with a concept of a jack-of-all-trades wanderer, then roll one amazing stat, one moderate stat, and some bad stats. Now you can't really play that character (at least, not without dishonest roleplaying). Conversely, you might have a concept that's charming but dim-witted and physically weak who relies on smiles and magic to compensate... and then roll every stat between 12 and 14 so that you can't really represent your intended strengths OR weaknesses. So if you approach character creation with the same "concept first" mindset that point buy enables, rolled stats can shoot down your concept, which isn't fun.
However, if you approach character creation with a fundamentally different mindset, rolled stats can be quite fun. Specifically, if you think of character creation as another aspect of gameplay: "What character can I make with these stats?" can be fun in and of itself. It's sort of a "pre-game game", so to speak.
So if you want to create a concept from scratch and then build the character to support it, you want point buy. If you want to play the "What can I make?" game before the campaign starts, rolled stats can be a lot of fun.
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Except of course it isn't. Overwhelmingly in character creation/advancement the game is based on choosing what you want - which class to take, what skills and feats to have, and so on. Random rolls are the oddity in that process, rather than the norm.What's the point of rolling anything?
To inject randomness and keep everything from feeling boring/predictable.
The entire game is based on rolling dice.
Spend a game rolling nothing higher than seven, and tell me again how little part rolling dice plays.
There is obviously more to the game than rolling dice, but the random element of modifier + die is the mechanical underpinning the game is built upon. Those feats you choose? Many of them are "add bonus modifier to die roll". Those skills? They are basic modifier to die roll. The class? Affects which modifiers you can add to which die rolls. It's almost like it's a system based on rolling dice. Some kind of... d20 system.
Except of course it isn't. Overwhelmingly in character creation/advancement the game is based on choosing what you want - which class to take, what skills and feats to have, and so on. Random rolls are the oddity in that process, rather than the norm.What's the point of rolling anything?
To inject randomness and keep everything from feeling boring/predictable.
The entire game is based on rolling dice.
Spend a game rolling nothing higher than seven, and tell me again how little part rolling dice plays.
There is obviously more to the game than rolling dice, but the random element of modifier + die is the mechanical underpinning the game is built upon. Those feats you choose? Many of them are "add bonus modifier to die roll". Those skills? They are basic modifier to die roll. The class? Affects which modifiers you can add to which die rolls. It's almost like it's a system based on rolling dice. Some kind of... d20 system.
i'm looking at you wizard who specializes in no save spells...
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It's fun too, you fee like a frickin' hero, not a scrub off the streets beggin' to die.30 point buy with a 1:1 ratio......I can get behind that kind of PB.
18 15 15 14 14 14 pre racial.
meh if the enemies aren't scaled up (had this problem in a game) i feel bored, not a hero. no balance and you jsut steam roll things, no tension. if you do scale things up, it doesn't matter anyway.
I don't let players drop stats below ten before racials :3i started forcing pointbuy, man i got so much flak for that. they kept saying that point buy (20) was too low, and i'm just sitting there going... you don't need an 18 in my campaign's power level.I also hate low point buy. XD I run my games 30 points 1:1 ratio. With low point buy you limit character concepts so hard. That monk and that cleric just cannot exist on this points. I could barely get a decent Warpriest :/ Not saying you're wrong XD just that I like a campaign where I'm suitable heroic. Not some commoner scrub who lucked into a big boy class.Just running a couple potential arrays built that way and seeing what the standard point buy equivalent is, I calculated:
Straight 15s -- 42 standard weighted point equivalent buy
18,15,15,14,14,14 -- 46
18,18,18,16,10,10 -- 61
18,18,18,18,10,8 -- 66
Wow.
can't play a dummy or a wimp, eh?
It's because my group, as much as I encourage them to get in character a littler, were, before I started GMing, a rollplay sorta group so I made that little notation so they don't get too silly with it. That said, I find stupid or unwise or completely uncharismatic character annoying personally. It's okay to be dumber then your part mates but not dumber then a commoner, being a "hero" is a big thing when I run games. And yes I do scale up, my games are always hard as hell. Heck, I once used 20 points just to try it and my party, despite the obvious logic of not taking that course of action, confronted a Forest drake at level one. I tried and get the drake to let them go in exchange for something buuuut, yeee. Instead they won and they were very proud.can't play a dummy or a wimp, eh?I don't let players drop stats below ten before racials :3i started forcing pointbuy, man i got so much flak for that. they kept saying that point buy (20) was too low, and i'm just sitting there going... you don't need an 18 in my campaign's power level.I also hate low point buy. XD I run my games 30 points 1:1 ratio. With low point buy you limit character concepts so hard. That monk and that cleric just cannot exist on this points. I could barely get a decent Warpriest :/ Not saying you're wrong XD just that I like a campaign where I'm suitable heroic. Not some commoner scrub who lucked into a big boy class.Just running a couple potential arrays built that way and seeing what the standard point buy equivalent is, I calculated:
Straight 15s -- 42 standard weighted point equivalent buy
18,15,15,14,14,14 -- 46
18,18,18,16,10,10 -- 61
18,18,18,18,10,8 -- 66
Wow.
dumb as in inknowledgable, i'm a paladin, i can charm like the best of them, and inspire people, but I seriously do not know any of the weakness of specific undead (other than channeling energy into their face seems to make my life easier) or about all the nobles. My plans seem to be centered around heroic charges or tactical retreats, and i try to keep everyone in the party chipper.
bruh, i put my 1 skill point per level into profession(masseur).
... now i want to do this.
edit: if you're giving them omg stats anyway, why do you care if they dump stats?
What's the fascination with painting other people's preferences on how to play the game as BADWRONGFUN?Except I didn't. I asked for the fascination with it. It's not like I'm telling other people to play like me. That would be dumb and pointless to even try.
he was talking to me i'm pretty sure.
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As a junior-grognard (only been playing since about '83 or thereabouts), I definitely enjoy the pre-game of rolling and finding out what kind of character I will make. Sometimes I even choose the concept first and then play it regardless of the rolls, modified in flavor if it needs it. I play old, young, feeble, degenerate, strong, handsome, ugly, pretty etc characters of many genders and many races. Lotsa fun.
Point buy, which I have also played a lot of feels...bland. There is a lot of frustration, as the PB method seems designed to bring you to make decisions regarding 12, 14, 16 to get the modifiers you "need". I have played way too many classes with 16 as the main attribute because I never drop below 10 unless the concept calls for it, and even if it did it's rarely Charisma. And the DC for your abilities with a +3 vs a +4 midifier is sad. At least with dice rolls I can't blame the method OR the operator (me).
I often play martial characters with Profession (something colorful) and "unnecessary" social (Int/Wis/Cha) stats - they are horribly unoptimised and cruelled by point buy. But i play them that way anyway. ;)
A last word about use of the term "exceptional" with regard to adventurers. Exceptional does not mean "super-powered" or "awpsum" or "moar than epic" or even "heroic". It means, simply, an exception to the norm. For me this means an adventurer is exceptional by choosing (or bi thrust into) a largely mendicant (at first) and itinerant existence outside the norms of much of established civil groups and societies. Foundlings and orphans. Operatives. Mercenaries. Avengers and revengers. Investigators, paranormal and otherwise. Etc...
It is not their mental or physical attributes that makes them exceptional (though such may contribute or even provide an initial impetus/generation) but their provenance and activities.
I agree with a lot of what OCW said, though for overall game balance and to stop power creep, i use point buy.
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...with clickbait titles?
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I absolutely despise point-buy, the way it is, because it's skewed so heavily in favor of SAD classes like the wizard -- classes that are already the most powerful in the game. It's not in any way "fair" or "balanced" -- unless you also think Fox News is. What it really does is punish people EVEN MORE for wanting to play a martial (read: MAD) class. It's like kicking sick puppies, and that makes me very, very sad.
Now, if you set point-buy a lot higher, the wizard still gets his 20 Int to start, but at least the monk can get decent Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. But then everyone has superhero stats, and not everyone enjoys that -- I know I don't.
Another option is to roll 3d6 for each stat, or 4d6 drop lowest. People playing wizards will still put the highest roll in Int, but they're not guaranteed to start with unreachable spell save DCs. That's why people use dice for attributes. (Well, that and nostalgia, and because it's fun to roll big handfuls of dice.)
For me, ideally, everyone would just start with the Elite array and have done with it. Or else point-buy would be scaled a lot differently, with 16-18 costing exponentially more than they do now.
Rolling stats has a certain fun and nostalgia to it. Like most nostalgia, that nostalgia is wildly misremembered and tinted with rose. In AD&D classes had certain minimum stat requires (and races too, I believe). Rolling literally determined what classes and races you could actually play as. And if you just wanted a simple fighter you better hope you didn't roll something good, as it would be "wasted" on a fighter. Oh, and the average fighter lifespan was 2 or 3 levels (anecdotal), if they survived past a certain point clearly their luck won over their player's attempts to get them killed. That's why people didn't name their fighter until 5th or 7th level (well, at least the ones I knew).
my longest lasting ADnD character was a fighter... wanted him to be a paladin though.
I absolutely despise point-buy, the way it is, because it's skewed so heavily in favor of SAD classes like the wizard -- classes that are already the most powerful in the game. It's a way to punish people EVEN MORE for wanting to play a martial (read: MAD) class. It's like kicking puppies, and that makes me very, very sad.
Now, if you set point-buy a lot higher, the wizard still gets his 20 Int to start, but at least the monk can get decent Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. But then everyone has superhero stats, and not everyone enjoys that -- I know I don't.
Another option is to roll 3d6 for each stat, or 4d6 drop lowest. People playing wizards will still put the highest roll in Int, but they're not guaranteed to start with unreachable spell save DCs. That's why people use dice for attributes. (Well, that and nostalgia, and because it's fun to roll big handfuls of dice.)
For me, ideally, everyone would just start with the Elite array and have done with it. Or else point-buy would be scaled a lot differently, with 16-18 costing exponentially more than they do now.
I don't follow this unless you NEED an 18 or something prior to racials on all your martial skills.
16, 14, and 12 do fine spread out over the physical stats, monks CAN ignore dexterity if they still want strong fists.
of course i've yet to have a player do a full caster well.
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of course i've yet to have a player do a full caster well.
That may be part of it. The wizard puts 18 in Int, plays a human for an additional +2, and dumps everything else except Dex and Con. Using the same point-buy, he's 10x more effective than the poor fighter, rogue, paladin, and monk.
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At least you don't have to randomly roll a background like Traveler and potentially die at character creation.Traveller is an odd duck, but there's only a few situations/versions where you'd randomly roll to get into a career, playing Classic Traveller and failing an enlistment roll being one of those. Anyway, it's in keeping with the randomness in character generation for Traveller, where in current D&D the randomness is rather out of place.
Character generation in Traveller is a game-within-a-game. How far can you keep rolling a decent character, gaining skills and more mustering out benefits, before you die?
But as far as D&D randomness being out of place? It's right where it has always been. I don't see how it's at all out of place.
Honestly, I find that the point buy is easily doable for MAD characters. With the increasing costs of stats, If you don't force a natural 18, you can have two nearly comparable stats. Every two points only nets you a +1, so it's not like the martials need that.
It's because my group, as much as I encourage them to get in character a littler, were, before I started GMing, a rollplay sorta group so I made that little notation so they don't get too silly with it. That said, I find stupid or unwise or completely uncharismatic character annoying personally. It's okay to be dumber then your part mates but not dumber then a commoner, being a "hero" is a big thing when I run games. And yes I do scale up, my games are always hard as hell. Heck, I once used 20 points just to try it and my party, despite the obvious logic of not taking that course of action, confronted a Forest drake at level one. I tried and get the drake to let them go in exchange for something buuuut, yeee. Instead they won and they were very proud.
"rollplay" seriously, still?
"hero" does not mean superhuman.You find something personally annoying, therefore your players shouldn't be able to set up their character the way they want, which is ironic since the entire point of this post is that YOU want to be able to set up your character the way you want.
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I like to use 20 PB for normal games, 5 PB for low power games, and for high power games I use rolled with full re-roll if your overall stats(added together) are equal to or less than the heroic NPC stat array of an Aasimar. It tends to work out well in every case, and in the rolling case it ends up being okay because the highter stat people end up playing classes that are much better with high stats like monk, while those with lower stats tend to play casters.
For one off games and short term games, I prefer the randomness of rolling. I like the challenge of playing an effective character with random stats.
For long term campaigns, I prefer point buy. I don't like having someone get stuck with a comparatively weak or mediocre character for long periods of time. Give everyone point buy and they all at least have the same stats.
Also, I've noticed that people who are used to playing with all high Stats have a rather difficult time playing with "low stats." It was literally the first thing I thought of when I read the opening post, and not but a few posts later did the OP state that he uses a 30 point buy 1:1 purchase! That is extremely high! Remember that thread where we all rolled 3d6 in order to see what we'd get? Remember how many people got straight 12s or 13s and declared those characters to be unplayable commoners? That's what happens when you're used to playing characters whose lowest score is an 18. You start to think that merely above average is unplayable.
I have a player in one of my games right now who is like this. He ended up with an 18 int and 12 charisma and declared that his poor character was so lackluster in the people skills due to his low charisma that it was unplayable - especially considering that he didn't have the skill points to focus on buying skills to improve it. With an 18 int! Meanwhile, he also had a 19 strength and complained that anything less would mean he wouldn't be able to hit anything.
literally this, recently i had someone bribe me to try and play a eldritch godling so they could do everything as charisma based since the point buy was so low.
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Remember that thread where we all rolled 3d6 in order to see what we'd get?
Hey! I remember that!
Remember how many people got straight 12s or 13s and declared those characters to be unplayable commoners?
No, I remember no such thing. I remember the "unplayable commoners" topping out at 12-13, with multiple single-digit stats and a negative total modifier for the set. I remember anything with a double-digit CON score and at least one mental stat of 13 or higher getting a response of "Hey, I could totally play a [insertcasterhere]". Those are the kinds of things I remember from that thread.
I think your "12 CHA is so low" player is an anomaly, not a member of a larger trend.