Party Hearty, the Pesh-Smoking, Hard-Drinking Paladin


Advice


Can a paladin party harder than any other class? I have been thinking about building a raucous character who follows a code of Ethical Hedonism - he WILL fight for your right to party! At first I was thinking a warpriest of either Cayden Cailean or Halcamora, but when I started to understand all the awful things that pesh addiction would do to a warpriest, I thought, why not a paladin of Halcamora?

Why can a paladin party so hearty?
1) Divine Health makes them immune to addiction, which is good because pesh addiction is incredibly awful for a front-liner.
2) Their first Mercy at level 3 can be used to cure fatigue, eliminating one of the side effects of pesh.
3) In-class Lesser Restoration to cure ability damage.

Then you can take Pesh Euphoria to eliminate the Will save penalty, and grant a nice reroll vs enchantments.

Now, are there any other abilities that could let you party even harder? And is there any better way to get rid of the ability damage besides using all your spell slots on Lesser Restoration? And how to square away "respect legitimate authority" with using a drug that is illegal in many places?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I love paladins of Empyreal Lords... They can get wacky as well as whack-y.

My one issue with your idea is that a paladin should be anti-addiction... Pesh use for himself is great, but pesh use for others could be really problematic in their lives.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

a few random ideas:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enhance-water

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/euphoric-cloud

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fortified%20Drin ker

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Courage%20in%20a% 20Bottle

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Drunken%20Brawler

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Drinkin g%20Horn%20of%20Bottomless%20Valor

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Tankard %20of%20the%20Drunken%20Hero

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Drunkard%27s%20B reath

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Freedom%27s%20To ast

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Pick%20Your%20Po ison

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Stagger -Proof%20Boots

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.

It's not about exemplifying behavior which would be chaotic, and self destructive to anyone not blessed with Paladin gifts, just because your metagame knowledge about rules crunch says you can.


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LazarX wrote:
A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.

That is one of the many valid ways to play a Paladin, yes. But nothing in the Paladin Code requires the Paladin to be a perfect role model who spends all his free time telling kids to stay in school, drink their milk, and not do drugs.


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LazarX wrote:

A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.

It's not about exemplifying behavior which would be chaotic, and self destructive to anyone not blessed with Paladin gifts, just because your metagame knowledge about rules crunch says you can.

I agree with LazarX. Partying, drinking, and drugs is not a exemplary behavior and is neither righteous or virtuous as a Paladin has to be. Most GMs will put this idea down on the spot, not to be a buzz kill but because it doesn't follow the class alignment prerequisites.

However, you did mention "Warpriest"and therefore you can do whatever you want in the name of your God, but you'd have to wait for a later level and get magical items to get the powers you want to use to party hardy.


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You're using current day, our world Christian values again. Stop that.

There are several Good religions who are all about sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll on Golarion, and last I checked none of it was illegal.

Everything in moderation, certainly, but there is absolutely no reason this is not a valid character concept.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.
That is one of the many valid ways to play a Paladin, yes. But nothing in the Paladin Code requires the Paladin to be a perfect role model who spends all his free time telling kids to stay in school, drink their milk, and not do drugs.

Well, considering you have to be Lawful good, if you went by the book you're stuck under this.

A quote from the PFSRD::

"Law Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."


Azure Falcon wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.
That is one of the many valid ways to play a Paladin, yes. But nothing in the Paladin Code requires the Paladin to be a perfect role model who spends all his free time telling kids to stay in school, drink their milk, and not do drugs.

Well, considering you have to be Lawful good, if you went by the book you're stuck under this.

[spoiler=Qute]"Law Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

Law implies honor: Check (nothing about Pesh is dishonorable).

Law implies trustworthiness: Check (It doesn't make you lie).

Law implies obedience to authority: Check (it's not illegal, and Lawful doesn't necessarily require you to follow the law anyway The only time this would come up is if anauthority figure he recognized told him to stop directly, and only while he was under his authority)

Law implies reliability: Check (it doesn't impair him in any way).

Not seeing the issue. That second half is 100% irrelevant (CAN include does not mean DOES include).


Azure Falcon wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
A major part about being a Paladin is setting an example.
That is one of the many valid ways to play a Paladin, yes. But nothing in the Paladin Code requires the Paladin to be a perfect role model who spends all his free time telling kids to stay in school, drink their milk, and not do drugs.

Well, considering you have to be Lawful good, if you went by the book you're stuck under this.

** spoiler omitted **

I don't see anything in the Lawful alignment that bars the paladin from drinking or indulging in other intoxicants, so long as he does so responsibly.

Basically, so long as it doesn't lead to him doing anything un-Paladinly while under the influence, and doesn't impair his ability to do Paladin things during the rest of his time, the Paladin is free to enjoy himself and relax a little.


Rynjin wrote:


Law implies honor: Check (nothing about Pesh is dishonorable).

Law implies trustworthiness: Check (It doesn't make you lie).

Law implies obedience to authority: Check (it's not illegal, and Lawful doesn't necessarily require you to follow the law anyway The only time this would come up is if anauthority figure he recognized told him to stop directly, and only while he was under his authority)

Law implies reliability: Check (it doesn't impair him in any way).

Not seeing the issue. That second half is 100% irrelevant (CAN include does not mean DOES include).

I agree with you on your first and second point. Your third too if in your world the towns you are in have no code or law on drugs.

But sure, pesh doesn't effect he Paladin because he or she is immune to all effects...but are the citizens he or she has to be an example for not effected by it? If a paladin is promoting a party hearty type of party, then it is chaotic in nature. A good feast or ball would be much more respectable under someone of law.


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A feast or ball? Oh my god check out Azure Buzzkill over here.


Azure Falcon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Law implies honor: Check (nothing about Pesh is dishonorable).

Law implies trustworthiness: Check (It doesn't make you lie).

Law implies obedience to authority: Check (it's not illegal, and Lawful doesn't necessarily require you to follow the law anyway The only time this would come up is if anauthority figure he recognized told him to stop directly, and only while he was under his authority)

Law implies reliability: Check (it doesn't impair him in any way).

Not seeing the issue. That second half is 100% irrelevant (CAN include does not mean DOES include).

I agree with you on your first and second point. Your third too if in your world the towns you are in have no code or law on drugs.

But sure, pesh doesn't effect he Paladin because he or she is immune to all effects...but are the citizens he or she has to be an example for not effected by it? If a paladin is promoting a party hearty type of party, then it is chaotic in nature. A good feast or ball would be much more respectable under someone of law.

Who says it's Chaotic?

Hell, in the VERY DESCRIPTION you just posted: "Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

He makes the right decision for him (It feels good and has no negative effects on me or those around me) in full confidence that everyone else will ALSO make the decision they should (which is: Don't, because addiction is a very real and very detrimental side effect to you).


Rynjin wrote:


Who says it's Chaotic?

Hell, in the VERY DESCRIPTION you just posted: "Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

He makes the right decision for him (It feels good and has no negative effects on me or those around me) in full confidence that everyone else will ALSO make the decision they should (which is: Don't, because addiction is a very real and very detrimental side effect to you).

I am starting to see the stupidity in this argument, not because of your claims, you make some fairly valid points. The problem I see with this is more of the fact that I picture Paladins as leaders by example...not just in faith and battle. I personally feel you are correct in the fact that the actions the character would be making are not necessary lawful or chaotic (though if they believed in the philosophy of Hedonism, passing on the beliefs that everyone should only look for what is their max pleasure that, that sounds somewhat chaotic in nature.) Though this argument is fairly meaningless due to the fact that lawfulness is determined by the type of world you are playing in, which was not specified but Rumpin did note that it is illegal in their game.

Also, I found this on the Paladin page:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" Wouldn't drinking in excess and taking drugs still technically be poison even though after a certain point it no longer effects them?


Well, that is quite obviously in the context of poison as a weapon against others.

So, no. Using pesh is not using poison.


Finally, a Paladin of Cayden Cailean - w00t! <grin>


Azure Falcon wrote:


Also, I found this on the Paladin page:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" Wouldn't drinking in excess and taking drugs still technically be poison even though after a certain point it no longer effects them?

Heh. Technically speaking, it's kind of true, but I imagine it requires the same sorts of rules lawyering that gets people slapped upon the head in a lot of games.


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The kind of Role-Model a Paladin is supposed to exemplify depends on the the culture of the area. Trying to be a Shining White Knight in a setting that has no Cultural Identity with that Archetype is a fallacy. Someone used to Western European fantasy would peg Paladins as Knight's Templar. A Japanese/Tian person, may envision an honorable Samurai when they think of what Paladin should be. However both of those types would be radically different than what a Native American/Mongol/Shaonti would picture as their LG Role-Model.

If you're from a society where smoking and drinking are sociably acceptable and non-taboo norms, I see no issues with this concept. If you're from an area with a more repressive and Puritan viewpoint on this subject, then sure I could see this character having a few issues.


Rynjin wrote:
Azure Falcon wrote:


Also, I found this on the Paladin page:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" Wouldn't drinking in excess and taking drugs still technically be poison even though after a certain point it no longer effects them?

Heh. Technically speaking, it's kind of true, but I imagine it requires the same sorts of rules lawyering that gets people slapped upon the head in a lot of games.

By that argument, since alcohol is a poison, all paladins must be teetotalers.


Suma3da wrote:

The kind of Role-Model a Paladin is supposed to exemplify depends on the the culture of the area. Trying to be a Shining White Knight in a setting that has no Cultural Identity with that Archetype is a fallacy. Someone used to Western European fantasy would be peg Paladins as Knight's Templar. A Japanese/Tian person, may envision an honorable Samurai when they think of what Paladin should be. However both of those types would be radically different than what a Native American/Mongol/Shaonti would picture as their LG Role-Model.

If you're from a society where smoking and drinking are sociably acceptable and non-taboo norms, I see no issues with this concept. If you're from an area with a more repressive and Puritan viewpoint on this subject, then sure I could see this character having a few issues.

Yes, I agree with you on this, such as what I meant by this argument kind of just funnels to then point where it doesn't matter and I should have seen this coming. It all depends on the society at hand and how the society judges activities as right and wrong. I will admit I am looking at things funneled from a western point of view, but as the original poster stated drugs, specifically asking about pesh, are illegal in their setting.


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I agree with what some people has said:
This behaivour wouldn't fit under "a christian knight of the round table searching for the Holy Grail" concept. But that's far from the only kind of paladin in a world where christianity doesn't exist, there are multiple gods, and different cultures have diferent icons.

In real world, Thor was an icon for vikings. He would laugh, and then hit with Mjolnir, any dude brave enough to tell him he shouldn't drink because he must set an example.

Grand Lodge

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Quote:
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.

You need to stop thinking Real world and think about Fantasy.

If the hooker has a hooker License then a paladin can legally bed her and avoid catching some disease other commoners would get. He is following the law and sex is neither good or Evil.

Same with Drugs...Unless there is a law against them, in the town you're in, then a Drug is neither good or evil. It's like if I went to Colorado and Smoked a fat blunt. Illegal in my state but totally legal there. So I am still Lawful even in partaking while in colorado.


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It sounds like a lot of the opposition is based on, "A paladin should lead by example." Putting aside for a moment the paladin's code does not require this, I would ask you, "Should the average commoner go barging into the demesnes of ancient chromatic dragons to try and kill them?" No, that would be terribly suicidal and would leave behind a very upset widow and a bunch of hungry kids - but paladins do that sort of thing all the time. Now, you can say that the paladin is setting a good example by inspiring adventurers to become strong enough to go off and slay dragons, and I could respond that Party Hearty is similarly inspiring people to become pious enough that their god will grant them respite from the harmful effects of drugs, either through paladin-like immunities or cleric-like healing powers. And if the paladin is an Ethical Hedonist, and believes that pleasure is the primary good, then enjoying a good smoke is a similar act of good (in kind but not degree) to killing a dragon.

Now, is it possible to be Lawful Good and still party hard? To answer that, let me quote in full Paizo's entry on LG:

Lawful Good:
Lawful Good

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

Lawful good characters are proficient at understanding bureaucracies, following laws, and cultivating order and structure in their own lives and in others'. They are naturally helpful, and others find them trustworthy, even if they don't share the same alignment. Additionally, lawful good characters are adept at deciding which actions are lawful and benefit society rather than the individual. With their focus on order, they can often build governmental stability where none previously existed. These characters sometimes have problems defying laws, even when the laws are unjust. Instead of disobeying or protesting against such laws, they work within the provided structure or system to change those laws, and they implore others to do so as well. They feel guilty lying to others, even if only asked to fib to provide a ruse for their companions. Similarly, they won't break the law to help good-intentioned party members perform actions that might have beneficial results.

When they're adventuring in urban areas with their companions, lawful good characters may feel compelled to excuse themselves from certain plans or attempt to reason with those more lenient in their interpretation of the law. It's much easier for lawful good characters to ignore the bad behavior of other party members when exploring ruins and wilderness areas outside the direct jurisdiction of a governing body.

Lawful good characters regard law as necessary for the welfare of society. They fight to abolish or change laws they deem unjust, and they always aid those in need. Lawful good characters strive to be forthright in their words and deeds, refuse to lie to others, and keep their covenants. They oppose evil wherever it is found, and avoid putting the good of the individual ahead of what is good for the masses. For these characters, the end rarely justifies the means. Characters drawn to honor, righting wrongs, or making sacrifices for others might be attracted to this alignment.

Opportunities and Allies

The character class most often associated with the lawful good alignment is the paladin, but this alignment may also include monks, who are always lawful. With a few exceptions, the other character classes allow for any alignment. However, playing a lawful good rogue—though feasible via the game's rules—may be challenging. Such a character would, however, be a good addition to a law enforcement body as an investigator, or might travel as a scout or spy for a military or knightly order. She might also be a trustworthy appropriator of treasures lost in the depths of old ruins.

Social Order: Bringing peace and order to a community or nation should be a paramount ideal to a lawful good character. Settling conflict and establishing a fair body of laws may be more often associated with politicians, legislators, and barristers, but an adventurer can pursue those ideals as well. Whether she focuses on keeping the peace or fighting against those who seek to upset the traditions of a particular society, an adventurer in an urban environment can instill the principles of a lawful good alignment in its people.

Philosophies

Lawful good characters vary widely, especially in terms of their zeal for their beliefs. Some may be fanatical examples of the alignment, while others apply these ideals more loosely in their lives. The following examples showcase just a few of the possible approaches to this alignment.

I don't think anything in there contradicts an Ethical Hedonist philosophy. Unless pesh is outlawed in that nation, the closest thing to problematic is "cultivating order and structure in their own lives and in others'", but that can be justified by saying the order and structure he promotes is to routinely indulge in whatever gives you pleasure, so long as you are not hurting anyone else by doing so.

@Purple Dragon Knight, thanks for the nice suggestions! I am giving a second look at warpriest of Cayden Cailean so I could use Fortified Drinker, the Tankard of the Drunken Hero, and Drunkard's Breath. The Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor is great for the paladin as well as the warpriest.

Also, Pick Your Poison is just a freaking fantastic spell that I never knew about! A level 1 spell that converts the penalties of Stinking Cloud, Blood Mist, and any other poison to more-or-less just give you the Sickened condition? And a 10 min/level duration? That is really something!


Antitoxin is made from diluted dosages of the original poison. Paladin is trapped on another plane of existence infested with snakes, tasked with getting a bunch of civilians to safety. Paladin eventually gets everyone back to the Prime. Paladin makes sure everybody gets antitoxin.

Paladin falls.


I could see Sir Kalten from The Elenium and The Tamuli as this sort of paladin. As I recall, he even mentioned something to the effect of "I fight for God, but what I do on my own time is my business." He drank in excess and had a fondness for women, but was still a holy (albeit not terribly good student) of his order.


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The biggest problem with this character has nothing to do with example and everything to do with encouraging the use of a dangerous, extremely addictive drug. That's not cool for a paladin to do.


Rynjin wrote:
Azure Falcon wrote:


Also, I found this on the Paladin page:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" Wouldn't drinking in excess and taking drugs still technically be poison even though after a certain point it no longer effects them?

Heh. Technically speaking, it's kind of true, but I imagine it requires the same sorts of rules lawyering that gets people slapped upon the head in a lot of games.

I'm pretty sure "not using poison" is about poisoning other people. Poison is given as an example of dishonorable behavior. Bringing a poisoned sword to a duel is one of the big classical examples of being a dishonorable warrior.


Considering that pretty much anything can be poisonous, depending on the dosage... If your GM is that strict about the "poison use" clause, your Paladin will starve to death. Hell! Even air is "poisonous".

Besides, it's only poison if its consumed by someone who is affected by it. Many people are allergic to peanuts... Would the Paladin fall for eating peanuts? Other people are lactose-intolerant... Do Paladins fall for drinking milk?


Yessssss. Ain't no one playing a paladin at my table.

Wait'll you see my interpretations of the Vow of Poverty!


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
A feast or ball? Oh my god check out Azure Buzzkill over here.

ROTFL!!


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The biggest problem with this character has nothing to do with example and everything to do with encouraging the use of a dangerous, extremely addictive drug. That's not cool for a paladin to do.

How is the Paladin encouraging it? Other than taking it himself, which goes right back into the leading by example issue. It's not like the Paladin is going around handing out free samples and saying "Dude, you gotta try this s$@#! It's the bomb!"


That's just the impression I got. This paladin promotes partying, and seems to personally regard "partying" as including drugs. If that's not the intention, the character is just fine.


Yeah, the idea is not to go around passing out drugs to children and getting them hooked. He just knows what he likes, and will protect the rights of others to do what they like, to the extent that what they are doing does not harm anyone else.

Anyone else have ideas for interesting items/traits/feats?


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
That's just the impression I got. This paladin promotes partying, and seems to personally regard "partying" as including drugs.

Which is fine, as long as he's a Paladin in Colorado or Amsterdam


The trait Iron Liver is a fantastic one I had missed. For items, I'll definitely have to go for a wand of Polypurpose Panacea. And when I can afford it, a Drinking Horn of the Panacea would be great.

I also realized that the Adventurer's Armory version of pesh is different than the Gamemastery Guide version.

Pesh - Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Taking refined pesh gives a person 15 temporary hit points for 1 hour, a +2 morale bonus on saves versus fear effects for 1 day, and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and Wisdom for 1 day. Pesh is addictive (Fortitude DC 10 to resist), and long-term users suffer Dexterity and Wisdom damage.

Especially at low levels, this could be a lot nicer. 15 temps is a lot at any level, but at first level that's just crazy. And a DC 10 save vs addiction is way more makeable at levels 1 and 2 when I need to make that save.

If I bought Dark Markets would that give more detail about the psychoactive effects of pesh? I'd like to know more about what kind of high it provides. Or is there any other book that gives more information about it?

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