What is the maximum a character or creature can Fly each round; 2x their Move or 4x their Move?


Rules Questions


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My Wind Walked Halfling Bard was trying to get away from a Large White Dragon, but ended up getting caught- and swallowed. I'm trying to see if we mixed up Running with Flying.

I know that you can Run at 4x your Move for for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score, but can someone also Fly at 4x their Move? i.e. can a Dragon with a 200' Fly speed can push itself to 800' in a Round?

Or is the limit for Flying 2x, as in a Double Move? i.e. that same Dragon can 'only' Fly 400' in a Round; 200' for the Move Action + another 200' Move in place of a Standard Action.

Thanks.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You can use the Run action with other forms of movement, such as Fly, Swim, and even Climb (so long as you have the relevant movement speed and a straight line to do so).

Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.

The only occasional restriction is that "You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going", and I believe with Air Walk you ascend at half speed, which could be interpreted as "difficult terrain".

EDIT: added more words.


Thanks Nefreet. If there is a sharp turn, I assume there's a Fly check or does that halt the movement for the turn?

Also- mind responding to our other quadry?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2says?Dismissing-Wind-Walk-what-happens#3

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The Run action must normally be taken in a straight line. I *personally* don't believe the rules for maneuvering mid-flight supersede that, but both the Run and Fly Skill rules are "general rules", and I've seen it debated before whether you can use them both together.

I know of no clarification.


Nefreet wrote:
Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.

I'm not sure if that's true. It doesn't specifically say it has to be land movement, but the word 'run' implies it.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.
I'm not sure if that's true. It doesn't specifically say it has to be land movement, but the word 'run' implies it.

In game terms "Run" just means getting ×3/×4/×5 movement speed, with some restrictions. "Hustle" was already used for ×2.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DungeonMastering.com wrote:

My Wind Walked Halfling Bard was trying to get away from a Large White Dragon, but ended up getting caught- and swallowed. I'm trying to see if we mixed up Running with Flying.

I know that you can Run at 4x your Move for for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score, but can someone also Fly at 4x their Move? i.e. can a Dragon with a 200' Fly speed can push itself to 800' in a Round?

Or is the limit for Flying 2x, as in a Double Move? i.e. that same Dragon can 'only' Fly 400' in a Round; 200' for the Move Action + another 200' Move in place of a Standard Action.

Thanks.

Running speeds have to be done in a straight line. Any deviation from that limits you to a double move. The other penalties associated with the Run action also apply.

So in order.

1.Yes
2.No


Nefreet wrote:

You can use the Run action with other forms of movement, such as Fly, Swim, and even Climb (so long as you have the relevant movement speed and a straight line to do so).

Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.

The only occasional restriction is that "You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going", and I believe with Air Walk you ascend at half speed, which could be interpreted as "difficult terrain".

EDIT: added more words.

Under the definition of the "Fly" spell, it reads "The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run."

And I see no other indication in the rules of Fly, Flying or Movement that a flying character can move any faster than their fly speed, with the exception of Air Walk, which reads "The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground."

Show me where you're getting this interpretation please, and I'll change my mind.


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Owly wrote:


Under the definition of the "Fly" spell, it reads "The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run."

And I see no other indication in the rules of Fly, Flying or Movement that a flying character can move any faster than their fly speed,

I think you have exactly the wrong end of the stick here. If the fly spell specifically finds it necessary to point out that it does not empower running, then winged flight, by contrast, does.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Owly wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

You can use the Run action with other forms of movement, such as Fly, Swim, and even Climb (so long as you have the relevant movement speed and a straight line to do so).

Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.

The only occasional restriction is that "You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going", and I believe with Air Walk you ascend at half speed, which could be interpreted as "difficult terrain".

EDIT: added more words.

Under the definition of the "Fly" spell, it reads "The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run."

And I see no other indication in the rules of Fly, Flying or Movement that a flying character can move any faster than their fly speed, with the exception of Air Walk, which reads "The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground."

Show me where you're getting this interpretation please, and I'll change my mind.

Because that's the default assumption. All movement modes can be used to run unless otherwise stated. And they are otherwise stated in at least some cases:

Swim: The skill entry describes that you must have a swim speed to run.

Climb: The skill entry says no run action, even with climb speed. However, using accelerated climb lets you move at double speed per action, which is effectively the same for an unladen character without special feats.

Fly: Neither the bestiary entry for "Flight (Ex or Su)" nor the skill lists any special exemptions. Therefor, fly speeds can be used to run. As long as it isn't the Fly spell or an ability based on it, since that spell does forbid the run action. A non-trivial portion of player-accessible flight references the spell, so many PCs may be SoL on running with their fly speeds, but not all of them.

Burrow: The "Burrow (Ex)" special ability explicitly forbids running or charging.


LazarX wrote:


Running speeds have to be done in a straight line. Any deviation from that limits you to a double move.

Also,a successful Fly check is required, no?

Liberty's Edge

DungeonMastering.com wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Running speeds have to be done in a straight line. Any deviation from that limits you to a double move.

Also,a successful Fly check is required, no?

Flight actually defaults to "no check", but has a list of cases where you must make a check. Running, by definition, avoids most of them since they're largely around moving too slowly or turning (neither of which happen when running). High winds can still force a check while running, as can collisions, or taking damage.

On the other hand, if you're double-moving so that you can turn while moving quickly then you will have to make a fly check if you turn more than 45 degrees per move action. So with a speed of 30 ft you could turn 45 degrees somewhere in the first 30ft of movement, then another 45 degrees in the second 30ft of movement, all without a check. More than that and you have to make a check and sacrifice some move speed.


I sincerely appreciate the detailed explanations. The Dragon was chasing me back down the rocky tunnel entrance to his lair. Ran that way because he was attacking the crap out of us while we were waiting to transform solidly back.

Speaking of which...

Can someone please take a crack at answering our group's nagging question about Dismissing Wind Walk?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2says?Dismissing-Wind-Walk-what-happens#3

We've only gotten 1 response so far & we try to have at least a few 'experts' before coming to a consensus.


Quote:

Because that's the default assumption. All movement modes can be used to run unless otherwise stated. And they are otherwise stated in at least some cases:

Swim: The skill entry describes that you must have a swim speed to run.

Climb: The skill entry says no run action, even with climb speed. However, using accelerated climb lets you move at double speed per action, which is effectively the same for an unladen character without special feats.

Fly: Neither the bestiary entry for "Flight (Ex or Su)" nor the skill lists any special exemptions. Therefor, fly speeds can be used to run. As long as it isn't the Fly spell or an ability based on it, since that spell does forbid the run action. A non-trivial portion of player-accessible flight references the spell, so many PCs may be SoL on running with their fly speeds, but not all of them.

Burrow: The "Burrow (Ex)" special ability...

I disagree. The "other exemptions" argument is more like a case of sloppy editing left over from past editions. In fact, looking at D20, there is a description for flying creatures "a flying creature can fly down at twice its normal speed".

And "default assumption" is no reason to allow someone to double or triple their movement speed.

However, it makes sense to allow a winged creature to beat their wings faster and get more speed out of it. Using a winged mount with higher stamina would make sense for someone to want to gain a speed advantage if their mount can "sprint" for some distances. This is all great and wonderful stuff, so long as the players can accept my gargoyles and harpies can come at them really fast, while the flying wizard putts along at 60' and the cleric goes running past in the air at 120'.


Owly wrote:

I disagree. The "other exemptions" argument is more like a case of sloppy editing left over from past editions. In fact, looking at D20, there is a description for flying creatures "a flying creature can fly down at twice its normal speed".

And "default assumption" is no reason to allow someone to double or triple their movement speed.

However, it makes sense to allow a winged creature to beat their wings faster and get more speed out of it. Using a winged mount with higher stamina would make sense for someone to want to gain a speed advantage if their mount can "sprint" for some distances. This is all great and wonderful stuff, so long as the players can accept my gargoyles and harpies can come at them really fast, while the flying wizard putts along at 60' and the cleric goes running past in the air at 120'.

I can't tell what you're disagreeing with.

The wizard can double move for 120' with a level 3 spell, the same as a cleric running with air walk, a level 4 spell.
Are you saying that your players wouldn't accept winged creatures moving fast? A harpy run-flying at 320' per round is travelling at something like 36 miles per hour, briefly, until they get tired.


I know it is third party content so it cannot be treated as the official rule, but the Dragonlance Sourcebook for 3.0/3.5 has an extensive section on aerial combat, especially pertaining to dragons. In that book, flying characters can use double moves and effectively "run" at 4x their flying speed subject to the usual limitations of running. They even have a section on chase rules, changing altitude, and turning at high speed. I would have to look at the section again, but I don't *think* it differentiates between winged flight and magical flight.


Bouncing off that same logic; the white Dragon chasing me was going 200'x 4, so 800' in a round. Or 2 and 2/3 football fields in 6 seconds.

That's just over 90 miles per hour.

And if I remember this was in the first round of him chasing me, through a tunnel, with him intially facing the rest of the party.


A dragon is presumably supposed to be able to fly at incredible speeds - otherwise they wouldn't have made them over twice as fast as most flying creatures.

There are birds in real life that can fly at 200mph.


True, with an asterisk*

Per Wikipedia:

"A bird's velocity is necessarily variable; a hunting bird will reach much greater speeds while diving to catch prey than when gliding. The bird with the greatest airspeed velocity is the peregrine falcon, able to exceed 320 km/h (200 mph) in its hunting dives. The greatest self-powered horizontal flight speed is achieved by the white-throated needletail, capable of such speeds as 169 km/h (105 mph), typically during mating rituals."

So a diving Dragon going 90mph? Sure. I saw that Dragonslayer movie. But 90mph having to turn around, start from a dead stop & fly through a cave? Eh.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Owly wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

You can use the Run action with other forms of movement, such as Fly, Swim, and even Climb (so long as you have the relevant movement speed and a straight line to do so).

Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.

The only occasional restriction is that "You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going", and I believe with Air Walk you ascend at half speed, which could be interpreted as "difficult terrain".

EDIT: added more words.

Under the definition of the "Fly" spell, it reads "The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run."

And I see no other indication in the rules of Fly, Flying or Movement that a flying character can move any faster than their fly speed, with the exception of Air Walk, which reads "The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground."

Show me where you're getting this interpretation please, and I'll change my mind.

It is a limitation that apply specifically to the fly spell and its derivate, it is not a general rule.

My personal interpretation is that spells that give a magical fly speed are limited to that speed for each move you take.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DungeonMastering.com wrote:

True, with an asterisk*

Per Wikipedia:

"A bird's velocity is necessarily variable; a hunting bird will reach much greater speeds while diving to catch prey than when gliding. The bird with the greatest airspeed velocity is the peregrine falcon, able to exceed 320 km/h (200 mph) in its hunting dives. The greatest self-powered horizontal flight speed is achieved by the white-throated needletail, capable of such speeds as 169 km/h (105 mph), typically during mating rituals."

So a diving Dragon going 90mph? Sure. I saw that Dragonslayer movie. But 90mph having to turn around, start from a dead stop & fly through a cave? Eh.

I suppose you use the same logic for the PC flying or land movement, yes?

So a flying character can't move in whatever direction please him at the start of a round but must make a flying check and pay the appropriate cost?
A character running at x4 will not suddenly stop and swing his sword, but instead he will have spend the next round to decelerate at normal walking speed?

Liberty's Edge

DungeonMastering.com wrote:

True, with an asterisk*

Per Wikipedia:

"A bird's velocity is necessarily variable; a hunting bird will reach much greater speeds while diving to catch prey than when gliding. The bird with the greatest airspeed velocity is the peregrine falcon, able to exceed 320 km/h (200 mph) in its hunting dives. The greatest self-powered horizontal flight speed is achieved by the white-throated needletail, capable of such speeds as 169 km/h (105 mph), typically during mating rituals."

So a diving Dragon going 90mph? Sure. I saw that Dragonslayer movie. But 90mph having to turn around, start from a dead stop & fly through a cave? Eh.

Well, if it had to turn then that wouldn't be running and it would drop to 45mph. Plus, some move speed lost making the fly check. Not counting those that get unusually good move speed (like Sky Dragon or Silver Dragon), all dragons have at least some chance to fail the fly check made to do a 180, and most have a chance to fail the check to go more than 45 degrees. So if a dragon was chasing you and you juked then ran the other way, it would likely either require the dragon to land and relaunch or use 2 full turns to turn around safely. It could turn around in one turn with minimal risk (20% chance to fail or less), but it would get (at best) get slightly less than one move action back in your direction that turn.

Due to the dragon's DR, a chase into tunnels would likely see the dragon just slam into the side of the opening to stop himself, then relaunch from there to continue the chase. Which is totally awesome, by the way.

(Fun fact: Due to the combination of size changes, dex drops, and maneuverability reduction as they grow, dragons almost always have a Fly modifier between +10 and +15 regardless of age. The negatives are balanced fairly evenly with their growth in ranks.)


I am completely on board with winged creatures, and other creatures using natural flight to be able to increase their speed. What I would like to see from Paizo is a complete rules write-up of Movement (including mounted combat, btw) that would include "flying creatures using natural flying ability can increase their speed..." instead of us relying on "default" interpretations... Because I don't see it.

Constructive disagreement from me.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Neither the Run or Speed sections are limited to land speeds.
I'm not sure if that's true. It doesn't specifically say it has to be land movement, but the word 'run' implies it.

"Run" only implies that because on Earth there are no speech-capable humanoids with fly or swim speeds.


DungeonMastering.com wrote:

True, with an asterisk*

Per Wikipedia:

"A bird's velocity is necessarily variable; a hunting bird will reach much greater speeds while diving to catch prey than when gliding. The bird with the greatest airspeed velocity is the peregrine falcon, able to exceed 320 km/h (200 mph) in its hunting dives. The greatest self-powered horizontal flight speed is achieved by the white-throated needletail, capable of such speeds as 169 km/h (105 mph), typically during mating rituals."

So a diving Dragon going 90mph? Sure. I saw that Dragonslayer movie. But 90mph having to turn around, start from a dead stop & fly through a cave? Eh.

I think that I would consider a cave or tunnel that is less than twice as wide and tall as the flying creature to be "difficult terrain" for flight.

Complete house rule territory.

Liberty's Edge

Owly wrote:

I am completely on board with winged creatures, and other creatures using natural flight to be able to increase their speed. What I would like to see from Paizo is a complete rules write-up of Movement (including mounted combat, btw) that would include "flying creatures using natural flying ability can increase their speed..." instead of us relying on "default" interpretations... Because I don't see it.

Constructive disagreement from me.

The border between "natural" flight and other flight is a bit fuzzy. Does everything with wings count as natural? What about wings from Mutagen? Does it matter if the wings last 24h (e.g. Wild Shape) or is just having it regularly acceptable (e.g. Oracle of Flame)? What about something that naturally possesses wingless flight (e.g. Lantern Archon)?

It's much easier just to assume that everything that doesn't reference the Fly spell works like natural flight and allows run, and that the stuff that's not intended to work like natural flight will reference Fly. And many things *do* reference Fly (e.g. Lure of the Heavens revelation, the Wings discovery, and the Flight witch hex).

In other words, I think Paizo already has the run/no-run thing covered, albeit a bit indirectly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:

A dragon is presumably supposed to be able to fly at incredible speeds - otherwise they wouldn't have made them over twice as fast as most flying creatures.

There are birds in real life that can fly at 200mph.

That's in a gravity assisted power dive, not horizontal flight.


LazarX wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

A dragon is presumably supposed to be able to fly at incredible speeds - otherwise they wouldn't have made them over twice as fast as most flying creatures.

There are birds in real life that can fly at 200mph.

That's in a gravity assisted power dive, not horizontal flight.

True - 70mph is about the limit for a bird in level flight.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

A dragon is presumably supposed to be able to fly at incredible speeds - otherwise they wouldn't have made them over twice as fast as most flying creatures.

There are birds in real life that can fly at 200mph.

That's in a gravity assisted power dive, not horizontal flight.
True - 70mph is about the limit for a bird in level flight.

And that's more of a cheetah style sprint rather than sustained flight.

There are some surprises in the avian world though. Of the avian species that cross the Gulf of Mexico during migratory flights, the bird that does it the fastest is the Hummingbird. And it does so with such extreme fuel efficiency, that if a DC 3 were to try to duplicate it, it would have to make the crossing on one gallon of gasoline.

Grand Lodge

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And, suddenly, I am back, watching an encounter at a bridge, with the question of what the flying speed of a Swallow is....

Spoiler:
Aaaaaaaaaa!

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