sniping question


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."

Does this mean that after making an attack i need to take a -20 penalty to keep myself hidden, regardlees if i move or not.

Does it matter if my character is at a vantage point, behind cover and over 60ft away

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The cover gives you a bonus to your Stealth check.

The distance gives them a penalty to their Perception check.

This helps alleviate the -20 a little.


Nefreet wrote:
The distance gives them a penalty to their Perception check.

Distance actually doesn't give a penalty to the check in Pathfinder. It just raises the check DC.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
The distance gives them a penalty to their Perception check.
Distance actually doesn't give a penalty to the check in Pathfinder. It just raises the check DC.

Well, then this feat is worthless.


Nefreet wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
The distance gives them a penalty to their Perception check.
Distance actually doesn't give a penalty to the check in Pathfinder. It just raises the check DC.
Well, then this feat is worthless.

Looks like it is. Wouldn't be the first time a feat did nothing.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Either that, or one could apply common sense when reading the rules, which is itself a rule promulgated by the devs.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

doesnt eagle eyes counter the first 50 ft
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet penalty

now how does cover afect perception?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

or the terrain (this scenario takes place on a lonely road in a forest)


Biztak wrote:

doesnt eagle eyes counter the first 50 ft

Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet penalty

now how does cover afect perception?

As written, the feat does nothing. It allows you to ignore up to -5 in distance penalties, except distance doesn't give a -# penalty. It increases the DC instead.

Whoever wrote the feat was most likely thinking of the D&D Spot rules, which did give a -1 penalty on the check per 10 feet of distance.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Biztak wrote:
how does cover affect perception?

Improved Cover grants +10 to Stealth.


The important thing about sniping to note is not that you can hide after attacking, which you can always do even without the sniping rules, but that if you successfully snipe someone, it is as if you never became revealed at all.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Godwyn wrote:

The important thing about sniping to note is not that you can hide after attacking, which you can always do even without the sniping rules, but that if you successfully snipe someone, it is as if you never became revealed at all.

so if the attack its successfull your position is not revealed?


Biztak wrote:
Godwyn wrote:

The important thing about sniping to note is not that you can hide after attacking, which you can always do even without the sniping rules, but that if you successfully snipe someone, it is as if you never became revealed at all.

so if the attack its successfull your position is not revealed?

Only if your Stealth check (with the -20 penalty) is successful. The success (or failure) of your attack roll doesn't matter when determining if your position is revealed or not.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Biztak wrote:
Godwyn wrote:

The important thing about sniping to note is not that you can hide after attacking, which you can always do even without the sniping rules, but that if you successfully snipe someone, it is as if you never became revealed at all.

so if the attack its successfull your position is not revealed?
Only if your Stealth check (with the -20 penalty) is successful. The success (or failure) of your attack roll doesn't matter when determining if your position is revealed or not.

i see, is there a feat to mitigate this penalty, because as it is staying hidden is really hard


Quote:
i see, is there a feat to mitigate this penalty, because as it is staying hidden is really hard

The only feat I know of is for kobolds only. It reduces the penalty to -10. (Advanced Race Guide)

There is a rogue talent (Advanced Player's Guide) that reduces the penalty to -10.

The crossbowman fighter archetype (Advanced Player's Guide) gets a bonus equal to 1/2 his level on Stealth checks when sniping, which helps offset the penalty.

The cavern fighter archetype for drow (Advanced Race Guide) gives a bonus to stealth when sniping.

While not actually reducing the penalty, the Stealthy and Skill Focus feats can help offset the penalty.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
i see, is there a feat to mitigate this penalty, because as it is staying hidden is really hard

The only feat I know of is for kobolds only. It reduces the penalty to -10. (Advanced Race Guide)

There is a rogue talent (Advanced Player's Guide) that reduces the penalty to -10.

The crossbowman fighter archetype (Advanced Player's Guide) gets a bonus equal to 1/2 his level on Stealth checks when sniping, which helps offset the penalty.

The cavern fighter archetype for drow (Advanced Race Guide) gives a bonus to stealth when sniping.

While not actually reducing the penalty, the Stealthy and Skill Focus feats can help offset the penalty.

thanks mate


I think Halflings get a sniping penalty reduction racial trait as well.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

i belive the feat kobold sniper works perfectly, ill just ignore the prerequisite of being a kobold


Just to throw some insight your way... if using the Unchained Skill Unlocks a halfling can snipe without any penalty at 5th level. If using the Sniper (Rogue) Archetype, you can even do so from 40 feet away!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hmm, now, how to bring your own Improved Cover with you...


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Hmm, now, how to bring your own Improved Cover with you...

Cohort / Summoned Creature / Animal Companion / Unseen Servant carries an object for you to hide behind? Helps if you are a halfling sniper with Permanent Reduce Person. (A very reasonable investment for a sniper if you can find a mage to cast it on you.)

Or carry around items that a friendly mage has cast Shrink Item on. Drop them on the ground to enlare them and then hide behind them.

Yeah the halfling alternate racial ability is called Swift as Shadows.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedRaces.html#swift-as-sha dows


Now here's the question... How does Hide in Plain Sight work with Sniping and Terrain Mastery? Also, toss in Camoflage to really mix it up!


_Ozy_ wrote:
Either that, or one could apply common sense when reading the rules, which is itself a rule promulgated by the devs.

What the freak does "promulgated" mean? Dumb it down for us commoners ok? In the meantime, I jumped into this thread because I'm a fan of kobolds. They get a feat that grants them a -10 to sniping but I don't understand the action at all. Is it:

1. The kobolds use Stealth to hide
2. They attack
3. They spend a move action to hide within Concealment or Cover as the situation presents itself
4. Their final Stealth check for the round is -10 plus whatever for the distance?

If they're attacking with bows or crossbows, can they load as part of that Move action in #3 above?


Sniping is a full-round action, I believe. You shoot and then make a stealth check at a penalty to remain unseen.


How does a readied action play in?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Hoover wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Either that, or one could apply common sense when reading the rules, which is itself a rule promulgated by the devs.

What the freak does "promulgated" mean? Dumb it down for us commoners ok? In the meantime, I jumped into this thread because I'm a fan of kobolds. They get a feat that grants them a -10 to sniping but I don't understand the action at all. Is it:

Dude, you're obviously capable of using the web, type "define promulgate" into your Google search box:

prom·ul·gate
ˈpräməlˌɡāt/
verb
promote or make widely known (an idea or cause).
"these objectives have to be promulgated within the organization"
synonyms: make known, make public, publicize, spread, communicate, propagate, disseminate, broadcast, promote, preach; literarybruit abroad
"they promulgated their own views"


Rapid Reolad is pretty much a must have for these rules if you do crossbow, which you should since you can fire it prone! Also Vital Strike would be a good option.

The way I understand the rules is that you make your stealth check to hide. If it's successful then you get to make your attack against flat-footed AC. You then immediately make another stealth check with the appropriate penalties to remain hidden. Next round. If you remained hidden then you make another attack against FF'd AC, stealth check, rinse wash repeat.


Faelyn wrote:

Rapid Reolad is pretty much a must have for these rules if you do crossbow, which you should since you can fire it prone! Also Vital Strike would be a good option.

The way I understand the rules is that you make your stealth check to hide. If it's successful then you get to make your attack against flat-footed AC. You then immediately make another stealth check with the appropriate penalties to remain hidden. Next round. If you remained hidden then you make another attack against FF'd AC, stealth check, rinse wash repeat.

If your opponent is already in combat (i.e. he's not flat-footed), then there is nothing in the Stealth rules that says he loses his DEX to his AC. That's an interpretation from different rules. Generally recognized as a fair and wise interpretation, but still only an interpretation.

Assuming you successfully used Stealth last round, here's what the rule says:

As a full-round action you make one ranged attack. Doing so normally breaks Stealth after the attack is resolved. But since you're sniping, you now attempt a Stealth check at -20 to remain hidden after your attack. If this check is successful, you managed to avoid revealing your location with your attack. Fail the check, and everybody on the battlefield saw you make your attack and still sees you.

Note that there is no movement involved in sniping - you don't dive back into concealment/cover. You must have used concealment/cover to make the Stealth check last round and you must still have concealment/cover this round to use the sniping rule. While you make the ranged attack, you still have the cover/concealment.


Faelyn wrote:
Now here's the question... How does Hide in Plain Sight work with Sniping and Terrain Mastery? Also, toss in Camoflage to really mix it up!

Camouflage is easy. Same sniping rules, nothing has changed, but you don't actually need cover or concealment to hide, so you can just hide right there in the terrain. This makes the Stealth check easier to apply (no need to remain covered or concealed), but it's still the same Stealth Check.

HiPS is a little harder. I think the RAI is to work just like I said above for Camouflage. But it looks more likely that HiPS just doesn't apply to Sniping at all because HiPS let's you use Stealth even "while observed" but the whole purpose of sniping is to never be observed, so HiPS is inapplicable. But I think it would be fair to let a character with HiPS hide in a location where he would be observed without HiPS.


Mark Hoover wrote:
How does a readied action play in?

This is where Sniping breaks down a little.

It could go like this:

Schmuck: I ready an action to fire my bow at any enemy that attacks me.
Sniper: I Snipe. I roll a hit! My damage is 9. Now I roll a 22 for my Stealth check, even with the penalty, so I'm hiding again.
Schmuck: Wait! I had a readied action.
Sniper: But I rolled my Stealth check so you never saw me; you can't attack me when you can't see me!
Schmuck: But... Readied Action...
Sniper: Haha! You lose. You wasted your whole action readying to shoot someone you couldn't even see! Loser...

Or it could go like this:
Schmuck: I ready an action to fire my bow at any enemy that attacks me.
Sniper: I Snipe. I roll...
Schmuck: Wait! I had my readied action to shoot you. Mine goes first. I roll a hit! My damage is 7.
Sniper: That's not fair! I"m sniping so you can't see me.
Schmuck: That doesn't matter because I Readied my Action to shoot you when you attacked.
Sniper: But I'm using Stealth!
Schmuck: No you're not. You roll your Stealth check AFTER your attack, and your attack is AFTER my Readied Action. You can't apply a future Stealth check you haven't even made to my current Readied Action.
Sniper: But... Stealth... Sniping...
Schmuck: Haha! You lose. You thought you could hide from a Readied Action! Loser...

Ultimately, without Sniping, the attacker gets a free shot unobserved because he made his Stealth check in the previous round - that "won" check carries over to a free attack this round without being seen, but he reveals himself to everyone on the battlefield after he resolves the attack.

With Sniping but without readied actions, the Sniper gets a free shot because he made his Stealth check in the previous round - that "won" check carries over to a free attack this round without being seen, followed by a heavily penalized check to remain unseen AFTER the attack.

But throw a Readied Action into the mix it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. I think the best way to handle it is to allow the Schmuck a new "free" Perception check as part of his Readied Action. The DC was determined last round when the sniper made his Stealth check. If he makes it, he can take the Readied Action but if he fails it, well, it's the first scenario I described above.

It might seem unfair to let him do two things on a readied action though. But, alternatively, he could have used a move action to actively roll a Perception Check to find the sniper and, if successful, he could have used his Standard Action to simply shoot the sniper. Instead he readied for a trigger that requires a "free" Perception check to enable the trigger, so he should get one. It's the same number of actions and the same Perception check and attack; all the Ready does is delay when these actions are attempted.

There is a corner case that gets weird is if the Schmuck uses a Move Action to actively perceive the sniper, then readies his action expecting another "free" Perception check on the trigger - I think I would have to disallow this as metagaming and simply say he couldn't find the sniper so he can't ready to shoot him; I'd only allow the ready with the "free" Perception check when he wasn't making an active Perception check in the same round.


@DM Blake: I think I like your suggestion as it is the most elegant I can think of. I had kobolds sniping in a game; they took the feat Kobold Sniper so they had only a -10 penalty. They were behind a rock blind of low boulders attacking from roughly 60' with a total Stealth check before any situational modifiers of +11. So the order of actions should've gone like this:

Round 1 for the kobolds: currently in stealth; PCs have failed Perception checks. Standard - x3 arrows fired; Move - 5' steps combined with Stealth checks suffering a -10 Penalty

A couple ranged attacking PCs this round declare readied actions. The other PCs try getting closer to the kobolds and the round is over.

Round 2
- Kobolds: Standard - x3 arrows fired
- PC 1 and 2: Readied - free Perception; if successful ranged attack against kobolds in Cover
- Kobolds: Move - 5' steps combined with Stealth checks suffering a -10 penalty

I tried keeping it this simple but the order of operations got all messed up and eventually the kobolds got sloppy, stopped sniping and just ranged attacked from Cover. They weren't hitting anymore (not attacking Flat Footed foes) but the PCs couldn't hit them (wiht cover they were rocking a 19 AC) so eventually the barbarian forded the stream between them, charged up the beach raging and smashed through the blind, hacking the kobolds to pieces.

I think I like the above order better than the chaos I had in my game!


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Dude, just look at the direction the projectile is facing. That will at least give you a general direction, even if you can't see the sniper specifically.


Jeraa wrote:


As written, the feat does nothing. It allows you to ignore up to -5 in distance penalties, except distance doesn't give a -# penalty. It increases the DC instead.

Whoever wrote the feat was most likely thinking of the D&D Spot rules, which did give a -1 penalty on the check per 10 feet of distance.

Potayto potahto is my view. I think increased DC should be effectively the same as a penalty to the user and that they could be interpreted interchangeably for most purposes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Silent Image, for Improved Cover?


Ravingdork wrote:
Dude, just look at the direction the projectile is facing. That will at least give you a general direction, even if you can't see the sniper specifically.

No. Based on the sniping rules, you have no idea where it came from. While you may be able to rule out a few things, like an vast field of emptiness on one side of you and the woods on the other, you can't use the idea that the arrow points directly back to the target.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Bullpucky. You'd at least be able to determine which quadrant it came from (front, back, left or right; north, south, east or west).

All the sniping rules say that the sniper is not revealed. Knowing the direction of the shot doesn't violate that rule.


Ravingdork, I understand what you're saying, but I feel Komoda is actually right in this case.

It's one of those things where real life logic doesn't necessarily apply to in-game mechanics.

This is similar and related to how creatures have no facing in combat...

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