Big-6 vs Wealth vs Level


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


As a GM, I’m trying to plan for some general capabilities and things. One of my questions is:

How much do you typically spend on the Big-6 (weapon, armor and/or shield, ability headband and/or belt, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection)?
- Is it by level? (example, by 5th level I feel I have to have all the +1 items)
- Is it by percentage of wealth? (example, I spend 2/3 of my cash on weapons and armor)
- Just as soon as possible based on income? (example I don’t buy hardly anything else until I have a +3 weapon)

I know not everyone is the same even from 1 character to the next. But I bet most people have tendency that lends itself to “Usually I do X” when purchasing items.

I’m asking because I know my PC’s are not a good gauge for others. I have each + of the cloak of resistance a bit before most players. But other than that, I spend relatively low amounts on the rest of the Big-6 until I’ve gotten lots of other kool stuff.
I often never even buy a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor even for my martial characters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

weapon->Armor->Cloak->Attributes->Amulet->rings->rotate to begining

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I generally buy whichever item/upgrade is cheapest of what's left.

So, first I get masterwork weapons/armor.
Then comes the +1 armor/shield, and the +1 cloak, at 1k gold each.
Then the +1 weapon for 2k.
Then I upgrade the armor/shield/cloak for 3k each.
Then I drop 4k on a stat booster.

And so forth.

Certain key consumables will be in there too, usually before 3rd level.

Does that help?


So it sounds like you guys are basically spending nearly all of your cash (except for some key consumables for Jiggy) on the Big-6 and just the order changes. That right?

I guess (more detail) where I'm coming from is 2 separate campaigns I'm working on.

In one, they have few full casters. Eventually they will need things like potions/scrolls for things like removing curse and flying. So when can they be reasonably be expected to normally purchase that kind of thing without it seeming too much of a burden and keeping them away from the Big-6 purchases they feel they 'need' to perform.

In the other group, we are going to be experimenting with various ways of eliminating the Big-6 and I'm trying to figure how much to reduce the general wealth. If they would normally spend 90% of their wealth on the Big-6, I want them to have a bit more of the other stuff, but not really 10 times as much.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In pathfinder unchained there are two or three different "rules" on how to get rid of the Big-6. You could look in there for some ideas.

Sovereign Court

Jiggy wrote:

So, first I get masterwork weapons/armor.

Then comes the +1 armor/shield, and the +1 cloak, at 1k gold each.
Then the +1 weapon for 2k.
Then I upgrade the armor/shield/cloak for 3k each.
Then I drop 4k on a stat booster.

You forgot about the protection ring/AoNA (in that order) right after the weapon. But otherwise - that's generally the order I go in too.

As for spending ALL gold of the big six - the bulk of mine goes there, and if I want a utility item I weigh it against the value of however many +'s I'm giving up - which varies a lot by character/campaign/composition of the rest of the group.

Also - outside of PFS I usually keep the utility items I find for awhile. They're often not worth buying myself, but they're often worth the 1/2 gold which I'd get out of them. In addition - unless they're used up, I can always sell them later if need be.


I would highly recommend dropping the Big Six for the ABP system from Unchained. With the Big Six in play buying any potions/scrolls at all is a pretty huge burden on a non-caster; by removing them you've freed their wealth a great deal.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

So, first I get masterwork weapons/armor.

Then comes the +1 armor/shield, and the +1 cloak, at 1k gold each.
Then the +1 weapon for 2k.
Then I upgrade the armor/shield/cloak for 3k each.
Then I drop 4k on a stat booster.
You forgot about the protection ring/AoNA (in that order) right after the weapon. But otherwise - that's generally the order I go in too.

Whoops, good catch.

Anyway, I too usually dump the vast majority of my wealth on the big six.


I tend to prioritize a little differently than most. I also tend to play more casters and less martials.

Cloaks of resistance are them most important to me. After that it is stat boosters, armor/shield, ring, amulet, weapon.

I also work with a lot of alternate defensive schemes like having mage armor up all day, so things like pearls of power or lesser metamagic rods of extend can be easily competing with the big six.

Some characters will also want an oddball item that works better for them. My PFS bard is has a +1 cloak and a +1 shield and is saving up for a figurine of wondrous power next. He is good at buffing and bad at fighting so it made sense to me to get a companion to buff rather than buying a sword +3 or wand of confusion.

Sovereign Court

Gregory Connolly wrote:
I also work with a lot of alternate defensive schemes like having mage armor up all day, so things like pearls of power or lesser metamagic rods of extend can be easily competing with the big six.

Well yes - those are exceptions. For examply: my monks generally don't bother with Bracers of Armor - just getting a wand and/or pearl of power to get mage armor on themselves. The bracers are generally only worth it if you play high level and get +5 or better.

In addition - they don't need an AoNA, and basically have 2 weapon slots instead.

But again - those are exceptions. The above big 6 formula works for any other martial, and pretty much any other combatant.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In Order:
Masterwork weapon
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Ring of Sustenance
+1 Armor
+1 Weapon
Handy Haversack
+1 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+2 Cloak
+2 Armor
+2 stat Belt
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
+3 Cloak
+3 armor
+2 Weapon
Dusky Rose Prism Ioun Stone
(If no in class flight, Winged Boots or Helm of the Valkyrie)
Continue buying cheapest upgrades in order until none available...
This list does not include consumables like scrolls for wizards but they are assumed.
After all gear at +5 consider must have enchantments such as Keen or in some AP's Bane/Holy.
Buy Tomes as necessary.
Some items such as Staff of the master, candle of invocation or cord of stubborn resolve may interrupt this progression based on class.
Basically all big six until 19/20 except must have gear such as listed above.


Well my current character will be something like when I get crafting and shopping done.

40% Offense weapon+STR belt
15% Save boosters
15% Class spesific item that also increases AC by 2 (Crystalline spaulders)
20% AC boosters
10% Other stuff.

Now note worthy thing about those numbers are that the character can craft the crystalline spaulders and his weapon himself so you are getting more bang for your buck so that probably skews the spent money somewhat. Also because the build uses size shenigans they are usually eatting penalties to AC while in combat so pushing resources there too a bit more than otherwise.

But I would say for melee oriented characters those numbers are within 5% marigin of error.


On a martial character i'd estimate i spend about 80% on he Big 6.

On a caster 60% as i make room for metamagic Rods.

On a completly different note: Use the Automatic Bonus Progression System! It solves this .. lets call it boringness-problem of the Big 6 being so much more useful in their blandness, compared to other, much more fluff-full and interesting items.

My group will switch once the current Adventure Path we are running is finished. The ABP-System was welcomed with open arms from all our players.


ABP sounds good but...What about the rest of the gold not spent in the big 6? Still the same amount of loot? If less loot, some players might feel short changed/bored. What about APs, do you need to tweak them?

Edit: just saw it "decrease character wealth by half"

Edit2: surely on the flip side you can just throw more gold at the party. If they just want +s then restrict it by level, if they are a group that needs a lot of gold glint to be kept happy. Same results..

Edit3: ABP does make levelling more fun, for example to those bring cleric levels.


Personally I wasn't fond with either of the Big Six replacements in Unchained as they were written (though my next campaign will probably include modified rules for ABP). Instead, I used the Scaling Magic Items system. Drop a few Amulets/Rings/etc. early and the PCs can put them entirely out of mind, just knowing that when they hit the relevant levels these items go up another tick in power.

Compensating for that wealth is that as a result of this system, Big Six items are not valuable items for shopkeepers. After all, 90% of the shopkeeper's customers are going to be in the level 1-5 range, where such items are +2 at best. Even if you bring back a weapon that the BBEG used as a +10, hand it to the shopkeeper and it drops back to a measly +1-- which means that's what he'll pay you for. Excess wealth solved.

Makes it easier to make weapons unique too. Just tack on a property that can't be added normally, or a 'bonus' property that exists outside the normal scaling (i.e., a sword that gets the standard +1s based on its owner's levels, but also always has the Flaming Burst property). A player isn't inclined to sell or ignore it because it's not disadvantaged compared to their normal weapons.


Errant Mercenary wrote:

ABP sounds good but...What about the rest of the gold not spent in the big 6? Still the same amount of loot? If less loot, some players might feel short changed/bored. What about APs, do you need to tweak them?

Edit: just saw it "decrease character wealth by half"

Edit2: surely on the flip side you can just throw more gold at the party. If they just want +s then restrict it by level, if they are a group that needs a lot of gold glint to be kept happy. Same results..

Edit3: ABP does make levelling more fun, for example to those bring cleric levels.

I think anyone who isn't a ninth level caster is spending way more than half of their wealth on Big Six items, so the system is a net gain in terms of how freely you can spend your money.


kestral287 wrote:

Personally I wasn't fond with either of the Big Six replacements in Unchained as they were written (though my next campaign will probably include modified rules for ABP). Instead, I used the Scaling Magic Items system. Drop a few Amulets/Rings/etc. early and the PCs can put them entirely out of mind, just knowing that when they hit the relevant levels these items go up another tick in power.

Compensating for that wealth is that as a result of this system, Big Six items are not valuable items for shopkeepers. After all, 90% of the shopkeeper's customers are going to be in the level 1-5 range, where such items are +2 at best. Even if you bring back a weapon that the BBEG used as a +10, hand it to the shopkeeper and it drops back to a measly +1-- which means that's what he'll pay you for. Excess wealth solved.

Makes it easier to make weapons unique too. Just tack on a property that can't be added normally, or a 'bonus' property that exists outside the normal scaling (i.e., a sword that gets the standard +1s based on its owner's levels, but also always has the Flaming Burst property). A player isn't inclined to sell or ignore it because it's not disadvantaged compared to their normal weapons.

I will look into the self progressing items, thanks for the suggestion.

There is something that doesnt quite sit right with me about this system though, the deletion of choice in where to allocate your resources.

A character might think he has enough defensive capabilities (heavy armour, casting, very good stats, some strategical schticks) and therefore decide to pour everything into offensive. This choice, whether smart or not, is now removed, making all characters closer to one another. A melee glass cannon is powerful, but has low defenses to compensate, yet now he is average in defenses too. Someone decides that their character is ok with not taking resistances (his class might give rerolls or boni), again standarised.

Example: I had a ninja with terrible AC but used clones, snake style, fog and other sneaky tactics to get out of problems. It was exiliarating to try not get hit and be useful at the same time. This factor would be softened with this system.

Not saying it is better or worse, just that this is intrinsic in the auto system.

I would very much like to hear of any middle ground suggestions or your house rules, or more on scaling magic items and how you used them.


I dunno, I kinda like how it's a bit of a stealth nerf to casters. One of the advantages of, say, a Magus is that he can cast mirror image instead of bothering with his AC, dramatically increasing his wealth in comparison to a no-spells character. Now the Magus isn't getting any extra money because he is forced to invest in AC.

Sovereign Court

Errant Mercenary wrote:
I would very much like to hear of any middle ground suggestions or your house rules, or more on scaling magic items and how you used them.

The simple method would be to just allow a character to shift around their big 6 - but inefficiently. Drop your AC +'s by 3 to get an extra +1 on your saves etc


In terms of how I used them: I went for the simplistic approach:
-Any weapon/armor/shield designated 'magical' gets a +1 enhancement at level 2, and an additional +1 per two character levels, to a maximum of +10 at level 20. Gold-specific enhancements are added normally by a crafter. AoMF and Bracers of Armor are treated as standard weapons/armor for this purpose (+1 before getting other bonuses, max +10, etc.). I'll probably cap this to three such items, to prevent Bane-swapping and similar from cropping up, but it hasn't been an issue yet.
-Cloak, Ring, and Amulet grant a +1 bonus, and an additional +1 bonus per four character levels (4/8/12/16), to a maximum of +5.
-Headbands/Belts I don't remember my setup for and don't have my notes handy, but it was a choice allocation of +2 enhancement every X levels, to a maximum of +6 in any one stat. It was designed to cap out at +12 total though, I believe.

In terms of the offense/defense thing, I find that that comes more from build choices than how you decide to scale your Big Six. This thread pretty much tells us that a lot of players pretty consistently devote a lot of their wealth to the Big Six, and I haven't seen any major caveats that change that for a given build. Instead it's how a player decides to spec their character that matters.

For example: I have a Fighter//Hunter gestalt who two-hands a bastard sword. He could pick up a shield and noticeably upgrade his AC. But he could do that without this system just as easily, couldn't he? He doesn't because he feels that the extra offense is worthwhile. And if it wasn't worthwhile before, it probably isn't now.

The same is probably true for your Ninja. Why was his AC terrible? Because you intentionally didn't spend on Big Six pieces, or because he was a Light-Armor-Guy who probably didn't have a shield?

If I was going for a middle ground I'd just spec up a price tag for a scaling Big Six piece and a price tag for a non-scaling version and let the player pick which one he wanted, with the non-scaling one being cheaper if you only went to the mid-range but more expensive to cap out.

I can see it being a concern, but more for classes like the Magus that don't actually want a +10 weapon. I'd have to figure out a solution for them, but fortunately I don't have one.


Arachnofiend wrote:
I dunno, I kinda like how it's a bit of a stealth nerf to casters. One of the advantages of, say, a Magus is that he can cast mirror image instead of bothering with his AC, dramatically increasing his wealth in comparison to a no-spells character. Now the Magus isn't getting any extra money because he is forced to invest in AC.

That is a bad idea at higher level when dispel magic and true seeing exist. At least d6 casters can hide in the back and just reapply the buff.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I dunno, I kinda like how it's a bit of a stealth nerf to casters. One of the advantages of, say, a Magus is that he can cast mirror image instead of bothering with his AC, dramatically increasing his wealth in comparison to a no-spells character. Now the Magus isn't getting any extra money because he is forced to invest in AC.
That is a bad idea at higher level when dispel magic and true seeing exist. At least d6 casters can hide in the back and just reapply the buff.

Not to mention against anyone with Blind-Fight. It's one of my favorite martial feats if I have a feat to burn away from my character's build. It's great against invis, when you can't see, and (notable here) it's great against an opponent with mirror image etc - you can just close your eyes when attacking and drop your miss chance to 25%. If you grab Greater Blind-Fight (level 15+ only though) you only have a 4% miss chance.

Verdant Wheel

kestral287 wrote:

Compensating for that wealth is that as a result of this system, Big Six items are not valuable items for shopkeepers. After all, 90% of the shopkeeper's customers are going to be in the level 1-5 range, where such items are +2 at best. Even if you bring back a weapon that the BBEG used as a +10, hand it to the shopkeeper and it drops back to a measly +1-- which means that's what he'll pay you for. Excess wealth solved.

Makes it easier to make weapons unique too. Just tack on a property that can't be added normally, or a 'bonus' property that exists outside the normal scaling (i.e., a sword that gets the standard +1s based on its owner's levels, but also always has the Flaming Burst property). A player isn't inclined to sell or ignore it because it's not disadvantaged compared to their normal weapons.

I am more inclined to use the Scaling Magic Items variant, but want to evaluate the repercussions more closely. Both for the character's wealth and the health of the general economy.

Does this drop the price of nearly all Scalers (let's call them) while maintaining the price of more wonderous and ability/spell granting items?

I'd like to unchain character wealth from mathematical bonus a bit, to free my players up to spend their money more frivolously (and less selfishly), and am wondering if this system will enable that.

Also, how would you price the sword given in the example (A Flaming Burst Scaler weapon)?

Good discussion.


rainzax wrote:

I am more inclined to use the Scaling Magic Items variant, but want to evaluate the repercussions more closely. Both for the character's wealth and the health of the general economy.

Does this drop the price of nearly all Scalers (let's call them) while maintaining the price of more wonderous and ability/spell granting items?

Yes.

Based on the theory that the huge majority of consumers are between levels 1 and 5, I set up the prices to be midway between a +1 and a +2 item. Thus the going price of a Scalar Magic Sword is 5,000 gp plus masterwork weapon cost. For Headbands/Belts, it's midway between a +2 and +4 item, so 10,000 gold.

rainzax wrote:
I'd like to unchain character wealth from mathematical bonus a bit, to free my players up to spend their money more frivolously (and less selfishly), and am wondering if this system will enable that.

It will certainly unchain wealth from the Big Six. Even if you had to buy each item for full market price, that's 42,500 gold. to be fully equipped-- less for many characters, who won't use armor+shield+weapon. Hypothetically affordable by level 9 based on WBL, and makes up one part in twenty of a level 20 character's expected WBL.

More realistically, especially if you use humanoid enemies, the party will be able to loot these items fairly early on, or have a crafter make them, and the large majority of their careers won't need to spend money on raw numbers.

Exactly how much it affects WBL depends on your enemies. It's not really something that's easy to run hard numbers for, but the treasure value of a handful of things-- especially humanoid enemies-- will go down significantly at the medium and high levels. It will also up the difficulty of humanoid enemies since it more-or-less brings them to PC wealth (this was something I realized on accident when I made an encounter much more difficult than it should have been). For example, this Human Fighter as statted has a +1 glaive, +1 armor, +2 Belt, +2 Cloak, and +1 Ring. But as an 11th-level character, under my setup he'd have a +5 Glaive/Armor, +6 Belt, and +3 Cloak/Ring. Thus he should probably go up one in CR, to CR11... but the loot he drops is still close to where he was before as a CR10 with NPC wealth.

You can use this as a way to balance the increase in free wealth by dropping what are ultimately low-treasure enemies, or you can use the increased room for treasure as a way to drop more stuff that's interesting rather than powerful. I intend to do both, depending on the situation-- mooks worth less, but leaders and the like will use that extra treasure for Cool Stuff.

rainzax wrote:

Also, how would you price the sword given in the example (A Flaming Burst Scaler weapon)?

Good discussion.

The honest answer is that I have no idea. I intend for such pieces to be very rare items, treasures as much as weapons. In such a world they'd be more apt to sell to collectors or high-level warriors rather than the local Magic Mart.

If I were to make such items common enough that you really would sell at Magic Mart, I would probably extend the base formula that I used for weapon pricing-- for most buyers it's a +3 or +4 weapon, which would be 25,000.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
ElterAgo wrote:
So it sounds like you guys are basically spending nearly all of your cash (except for some key consumables for Jiggy) on the Big-6 and just the order changes. That right?

only on generic non-descript characters, sometimes i but wands or scrolls, or specific slotless items.


An alternative way to use the ABP mentioned above is letting it coexist with the Big 6. I did similar in a previous campaign and it worked pretty well.

Often, characters are content to wait for their level bonuses, but some times characters want to advance faster. Weapon attunement +3 at 14, or spend money earlier to get a +3 weapon knowing it would be free later anyways. This way characters have a choice if they have the money and want to prioritize faster than the ABP.

I also saw a lot more saving/using of the more interesting magic items that don't normally get used. There was far less urge to sell them automatically since they did not need every spare penny to get the required items.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I really like the side effect that npcs become tougher. Otherwise they were just exagerated loot pinatas - I generally apply templates to them to actually make them on par without showering the party with gold for an easy fighter kill.

I also liked the idea to trade boni 3 to 1 or 2 to 1 depending what it is, to customise the aspects that you desire.

The disappearance of "cool cloak shame i already got resistance one" is definitely a bonus too. So is the cheaper application of weapon enchantment effects, allowing more varied builds (note: id bump keen to a +2 requirement in this system).

Again, this system has one point which will make players unhappy, even if it is nonsensical: you give them half as much as what you did before. If you ever played with a 25 point buy and went to a 15 pb you can grasp the feeling. Except this one is even more frivolous. Not all players are like that but many do chant "loot loot loot!!!" after tough encounters.


Errant Mercenary wrote:
Again, this system has one point which will make players unhappy, even if it is nonsensical: you give them half as much as what you did before. If you ever played with a 25 point buy and went to a 15 pb you can grasp the feeling. Except this one is even more frivolous. Not all players are like that but many do chant "loot loot loot!!!" after tough encounters.

Well, there are solutions to that.

What I plan to do is follow the theory that gear-equipped humanoids should go up one in CR as PC wealth dictates, and extend that to actually giving important humanoid enemies something like PC wealth-- some cool or interesting items outside the Big Six.

Less important characters? Mooks and minions? The players won't get much off them, but that's not a big deal. As you note it's after the tough encounters that it matters, so those are the only ones you'd have to do this for.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The problem I have with thinking that ABP actually helps fix any of the WBL problems is this - you're advised to reduce all characters WBL by 50%.

Since the bonuses are worth roughly 10% more than that, all you're really gaining is a small increase in wealth to spend on the 'interesting' stuff.

This is actually a Nerf to anyone who's not a 6-level caster (pretty much), since most martials will want to spend a lot more than that on the Big 6, and most full casters will want to spend a lot less.

Luckily, the real meat of the game is in 6/9ths casters at this point. Still... It seems like you're just setting up half your players for disappointment by using ABP.

It did, however, inspire me to create my own set of rules to mostly separate gold from magic items, so I still consider it a net win for me, even if ABP is one of the parts of the book I plan to toss in the dumpster.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


This is actually a Nerf to anyone who's not a 6-level caster (pretty much), since most martials will want to spend a lot more than that on the Big 6, and most full casters will want to spend a lot less.

You've got that back-to-front. Martials spend a greater margin of their WBL on big-6, so ABP gives them proportionally more money to spend. It's a buff to martials.

Think of it this way: let's say both characters are at 30k gold. A caster might spend 60% wealth on big six while a fighter might spend 80%, leaving the caster with 12K gold left to spend and the fighter with 6K gold.

Now, with ABP, you halve wealth but give big 6 for free. Each character has 15K gold left to spend. This is a 3K net gain for the Wizard, but a 9K net gain for the fighter: he has benefited by almost three times as much as the wizard. The wizard can't opt to 'spend less' using this model like he normally would, even with crafting feats. This is because everyone is forced to pick up the full big-six array (magic weapons, armour etc) which a wizard would normally skip as he doesn't need them that early.

The other main design intention of ABP is to free up slots. Big six, especially the cloak of resistance, 'hog' magic item slots which prevents your characters from using interesting wondrous items they find.

The intention is NOT to give characters a huge wealth boost. If you want that, just don't limit to 1/2 WBL.

Sovereign Court

Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.

Monks don't get an amulet of natural armor from the system. They *still* have to pay out of the nose if they want to punch things. Even worse now, they still have to pay out

Since nobody has done this yet, lets look at how much wealth the system actually gives you, assuming two handed fighting
[Level]:[system equivalent WBL spent on big 6]/[Total WBL using normal rule set]
3:1000/3000
4:4000/6000
5:6000/10500
6:10000/16000
7:14000/23500
8:19000/33000
9:28000/46000
10:39000/620000
11:51000/82000
12:63000/108000
So on average, the system gives you a little over half your WBL worth of big 6 items. It should be noted that splitting the +1 across 2 weapons/armor and shield is worth less than a +2 to a single weapon/armor. If you are using twf or sword and boarding, drop the above numbers by 4000 above level 8.

As far as this system goes, if you were planning on spending lots on AC boosters then this system is a boon to you. If you were planning to deviate significantly from this, then the system is a downgrade. Anyone who can provide parts of the big 6 via spells won't be particularly happy about the system - Barkskin is weaker now, and greater magic weapon is practically useless. Natural weapon/unarmed users have it pretty bad as well - they get nothing out of the attunement bonus to weapons. Non-vanilla enhancement equivalent upgrades to weapons and armor are terrible now too. Crafting is less strong - Craft Arms and Armor is useless, but I imagine CWI will still get a good work out given that almost all of your wealth will be going in to it for most classes.

As far as I can see Animal Companion creatures get these bonuses too, because IIRC HD=character level. If this is the case druids might not be so sad about having to effectively pay for weapons AND AoMF.


Snowblind wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.
Monks don't get an amulet of natural armor from the system. They *still* have to pay out of the nose if they want to punch things. Even worse now, they still have to pay out

What are you talking about? Monks can attune their unarmed strikes, they don't need the AoMF or the AoNA. Attunement specifies "weapons", not "manufactured weapons". The ruleset is a pretty major nerf to natural attack builds to be sure, but Monks come out really well.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.
Monks don't get an amulet of natural armor from the system. They *still* have to pay out of the nose if they want to punch things. Even worse now, they still have to pay out
What are you talking about? Monks can attune their unarmed strikes, they don't need the AoMF or the AoNA. Attunement specifies "weapons", not "manufactured weapons". The ruleset is a pretty major nerf to natural attack builds to be sure, but Monks come out really well.

Looking over the rules again, "weapon in their possession" could arguably include unarmed strikes, so monks might not be screwed (I personally wouldn't lump someone's physical body under the term "posession", but it isn't a great stretch to do so). You do have a point, but I would expect table variation there.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Blakmane wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


This is actually a Nerf to anyone who's not a 6-level caster (pretty much), since most martials will want to spend a lot more than that on the Big 6, and most full casters will want to spend a lot less.

You've got that back-to-front. Martials spend a greater margin of their WBL on big-6, so ABP gives them proportionally more money to spend. It's a buff to martials.

Think of it this way: let's say both characters are at 30k gold. A caster might spend 60% wealth on big six while a fighter might spend 80%, leaving the caster with 12K gold left to spend and the fighter with 6K gold.

Now, with ABP, you halve wealth but give big 6 for free. Each character has 15K gold left to spend. This is a 3K net gain for the Wizard, but a 9K net gain for the fighter: he has benefited by almost three times as much as the wizard. The wizard can't opt to 'spend less' using this model like he normally would, even with crafting feats. This is because everyone is forced to pick up the full big-six array (magic weapons, armour etc) which a wizard would normally skip as he doesn't need them that early.

The other main design intention of ABP is to free up slots. Big six, especially the cloak of resistance, 'hog' magic item slots which prevents your characters from using interesting wondrous items they find.

The intention is NOT to give characters a huge wealth boost. If you want that, just don't limit to 1/2 WBL.

Yes, but my point is that you may still WANT to spend 80% with your Fighter, but too bad for you if you do. You're not really getting much extra, besides a small percentage gain on what you spend on straight bonuses.

I for one don't want my Fighter to be limited, or my Wizard to be forced to have a magic weapon, or my Druid to be forced to have a AoNA that's worse than his barskin. And I sure don't want my wizard to be forced to buy items to boost his STR, or my Fighter to be forced to buy items to boost his INT. With all the potentially wasted money in ABP, you're potentially getting a net loss of real, practical wealth, since wealth spent on things that don't really benefit you is simply a waste.

My whole point is this - people talk about ABP like it somehow frees up wealth for other things, but in fact it simply locks your wealth down into things that may or may not be any use to you. You can't get something for nothing. You either have to give out more wealth for people to have more of the 'interesting' stuff, or they have to sacrifice some of their bonuses to get that stuff.

WBL especially bugs me when you get to nonmagical items. Say you want to buy a castle for your high level PC - well, you just blew a cool 50,000gp that could've gone to gear. And this is how the game actively encourages murderhoboing. That's why I said I created a system which largely decouples gold from magic items - because if you don't, you'll always be stuck in this vicious cycle.

Edit: You are correct about freeing up slots, though. (Although why the Innate Bonus system didn't just say, "adding Big 6 bonuses to items doesn't incur the standard 50% price increase" I don't know. Could've gotten it done in a paragraph instead of wasting 2 pages on a junk system.)


I, being a DM, have to face a few other problems with this kind of automatic bonuses system: Nowhere says what kind of bonuses should you apply for a NPC or those few monsters with an equivalent treasure.

  • If you simply give them the bonuses expected for a character of their level, they are obviously quite more powerful than the older versions without this boost (who only had around 20-40% of the equipment for a character of their level). CRs for NPCs and NPC-like creatures should be recalculated ( by an utterly unknown CR amount)or not apply them the automatic bonus progression. On the other hand, it stretches anyone's sense of reality that this kind of innate power only apllies to a few characters, namely the pcs (who, by the way, are now more powerful in combat than before, deepening the relative power breach breach between them)

  • As the Unchained book says, players tend to be clearly more powerful just by giving them all the upgrades for free. They are not even much less versatile, due to the huge amount of money they formerly had to spend to pay for the older versions and the number of slots they were forced to use with them ( around 60-80%). So cutting their budget in half doesn't seem enough to keep them on par with the older versions. This is really a problem, because all monsters' CR are designed with the old standards in mind. Even if you agree to keep PCs and NPCs even, monsters without NPCs treasure suddenly became weaker than expected for their CRs; but then, if you give them full pcs bonuses for their level, they improve spectacularly. Maybe some sort of template made for them to compensate, carefully measured to tailor the improved specs, would be a good idea

I've tried giving all NPCs half NPC treasure but full pc bonuses and pcs stats for just +1CR( that is, Level=CR), and it seems to work, but I'm still unsure of what to do with other creatures. Any Idea?

Sovereign Court

Snowblind wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.
Monks don't get an amulet of natural armor from the system. They *still* have to pay out of the nose if they want to punch things. Even worse now, they still have to pay out
What are you talking about? Monks can attune their unarmed strikes, they don't need the AoMF or the AoNA. Attunement specifies "weapons", not "manufactured weapons". The ruleset is a pretty major nerf to natural attack builds to be sure, but Monks come out really well.
Looking over the rules again, "weapon in their possession" could arguably include unarmed strikes, so monks might not be screwed (I personally wouldn't lump someone's physical body under the term "posession", but it isn't a great stretch to do so). You do have a point, but I would expect table variation there.

Of note - in the unchained monk thread Monk Seifter specifically mentioned this system as helping out unarmed monks with the AoMF problem - so it's safe to say that it was meant to work for them.


Snowblind wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Among martials - it's also a slight buff to TWF characters - as one of the disadvantages is the extra cost of two weapons. Monks as well - arguable moreso since they wouldn't be required to take Barkskin & burn ki on it to make up for their neck slot being filled by the AoMF.
Monks don't get an amulet of natural armor from the system. They *still* have to pay out of the nose if they want to punch things. Even worse now, they still have to pay out
What are you talking about? Monks can attune their unarmed strikes, they don't need the AoMF or the AoNA. Attunement specifies "weapons", not "manufactured weapons". The ruleset is a pretty major nerf to natural attack builds to be sure, but Monks come out really well.
Looking over the rules again, "weapon in their possession" could arguably include unarmed strikes, so monks might not be screwed (I personally wouldn't lump someone's physical body under the term "posession", but it isn't a great stretch to do so). You do have a point, but I would expect table variation there.

I wouldn't play at a table with a GM dumb enough to think you are not in possession of your hands.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

*jots down idea for new homebrew monster*


Jiggy wrote:
*jots down idea for new homebrew monster*

Does it involve disarming characters so they no longer possess hands?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Serisan wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
*jots down idea for new homebrew monster*
Does it involve disarming characters so they no longer possess hands?

>.>

<.<
>.>

Make a Knowledge (sadistic GM) check.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
*jots down idea for new homebrew monster*
Does it involve disarming characters so they no longer possess hands?

>.>

<.<
>.>

Make a Knowledge (sadistic GM) check.

In a home game I play in, this is one of the other players' main tactics.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Big-6 vs Wealth vs Level All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion