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You'd get a situation like a bow and arrow. The net is going to be a +15 set of weapons...but the combined cost will be, what, 700k?
However, an interesting way to help keep the cost of wielding two weapons down by spreading the cost across the amulet as well.
==Aelryinth
I'm mainly asking because there appears to be some doubt as to whether or not this was intended.
Edit: Actually, I think the dispute is not as to intention so much as whether or not it works at all.
Edit: I also think this faq prevents you from getting a +15total bonus on your attack. Hence the question of what happens when applying the amulet's bonus to the cestus via ascetic style causes you to exceed the +10 cap.
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I'm mainly asking because there appears to be some doubt as to whether or not this was intended.You'd get a situation like a bow and arrow. The net is going to be a +15 set of weapons...but the combined cost will be, what, 700k?
However, an interesting way to help keep the cost of wielding two weapons down by spreading the cost across the amulet as well.
==Aelryinth
As the guy who wrote it, it was not.
Until an Owen answer or an official Paizo FAQ happens (both of which supersede me), my suggestion would be to treat it like a magical bow and ammunition; enhancement bonuses don't stack, but special abilities would. Considering that the amulet of mighty fists is in general more expensive than the bow, this should be a relatively balanced way to handle it.
With that said, I would NOT allow the style feat to transfer enhancement bonuses, as that was NOT my intention. It was designed to work on class abilities and feats, not magic weapon bonuses.
Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack, anyways.
So, you'd have a situation of +1/+9 weapons with a +5/+5 Amulet tops, or a 0/+10 Amulet with +5/+5 Weapons.
the latter is more optimal by +1, but the prior means ANY monk weapon you pick up is +5 enhanced.
In such a situation, a collection of Bane weapons becomes VERY handy. Put all the core stuff on the amulet, and golf bag a set of minor weapons with variant additional stuff.
==Aelryinth
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I'm mainly asking because there appears to be some doubt as to whether or not this was intended.You'd get a situation like a bow and arrow. The net is going to be a +15 set of weapons...but the combined cost will be, what, 700k?
However, an interesting way to help keep the cost of wielding two weapons down by spreading the cost across the amulet as well.
==Aelryinth
As the guy who wrote it, it was not.
Until an Owen answer or an official Paizo FAQ happens (both of which supersede me), my suggestion would be to treat it like a magical bow and ammunition; enhancement bonuses don't stack, but special abilities would. Considering that the amulet of mighty fists is in general more expensive than the bow, this should be a relatively balanced way to handle it.
With that said, I would NOT allow the style feat to transfer enhancement bonuses, as that was NOT my intention. It was designed to work on class abilities and feats, not magic weapon bonuses.
Enhancement bonuses overlap rather than stack anyway, but I guess in the end it was a net that was accidentally cast too wide (though not game-breakingly so).
The bow+arrow analogy is very helpful, and props to Aelryinth for the very useful illustration.
I'd like to get clarification:
The dwarven style: Turns the hatred bonus from TH to TH/dmg; doubles it to +2/+2; allows it apply to ANYTHING that has hit you until the end of combat; AND allows the +4 AC racial bonus to AC to apply against anything you Hate?
That's terrifying, if it's all true.
==Aelryinth
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I'd like to get clarification:
The dwarven style: Turns the hatred bonus from TH to TH/dmg; doubles it to +2/+2; allows it apply to ANYTHING that has hit you until the end of combat; AND allows the +4 AC racial bonus to AC to apply against anything you Hate?
That's terrifying, if it's all true.
==Aelryinth
All correct. It does require something to hit you first, so if you optimize AC too heavily, it will be difficult to get that hit. It also means you won't get the bonuses without first taking some pain.
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I think people are misreading Ascetic Style.
As written, it does not mention magic items, only feats and class abilities. I think people have gotten too excited and read more into it than the text supports.
Aelryinth,
Dwarven Style: Hatred increased to +2 and applies TH and dmg.
2nd feat: To one target that hits you, you can apply either hatred or Defensive weapon training as an immediate action. When you change targets, you lose the benefit.
3rd feat: Allows you to apply both hatred and defensive training to the same target (but only when applying the second stage so doesn't work generically on goblinoids and orcs unless you apply it). Allows you to keep applying it to any number of targets.
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I think people are misreading Ascetic Style.
As written, it does not mention magic items, only feats and class abilities. I think people have gotten too excited and read more into it than the text supports.
It mentions "effects that augment an unarmed strike", which for better or worse casts a very wide net - in fact, I struggle to think of any wording that could cast the net any wider, and as Alexander has said, it was wider than he intended.
But as the text stands, it appears the best way to adjudicate its effects are per the rules for magical ranged weapons and ammunition, as Alexander and Aelryinth have pointed out, unless Owen weighs in or a faq comes out amending the text of the feat.
So is Ascetic Style giving you Monk unarmed strike damage on a cestus then? That's a nice thing for one of my favorite weapons. What else are you getting out of this feat chain?
If you read above, AoMF's would also stack with Cestus' magic. The cestus would count as ua for ANYTHING to do with unarmed strike.
==Aelryinth
cestus pummeling style?
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The only niche I can see this Int-to-damage being used is if you're using Weapon Finesse with an Elven Curved Blade, and want to dump Strength, while having a good Int. For the ECB, the only available Dex-do-damage option is 3 levels of Unchained Rogue.Is the elven style a complete replacement of strength?
Cause if it lets you get Intelligence to damage without giving it to-hit as well then I would rather just do dex based builds Instead of using the Style.
You can place Agile on an Elven Curved Blade to get Dex to Damage. It doesn't give 1 1/2 Dex like Unchained Rogue does, though.
There may be some Magus builds that Elven Style is good for, if Int is higher than Dex. A rapier with Weapon Finesse, Arcane Accuracy, and Elven Style would give Dex+Int to hit a limited number of rounds/day and Int to Damage. Fencing Grace looks like an easier feat chain, though, and I think still works with Spell Combat.
I was wondering about the empty quiver style. Is the weapon still treated as a Crossbow when making melee attacks?
If so that would be awesome for the fith level bolt ace ability.
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No, the weapon is considered either a light or heavy mace.I was wondering about the empty quiver style. Is the weapon still treated as a Crossbow when making melee attacks?
If so that would be awesome for the fith level bolt ace ability.
However, Empty Quiver Flexibility specifically allows you to use any feat or class ability that modify ranged attack rolls and damage with the weapon to be used with melee attack rolls and damage.
It should work.
No, the weapon is considered either a light or heavy mace.I was wondering about the empty quiver style. Is the weapon still treated as a Crossbow when making melee attacks?
If so that would be awesome for the fith level bolt ace ability.
However, Empty Quiver Flexibility specifically allows you to use any feat or class ability that modify ranged attack rolls and damage with the weapon to be used with melee attack rolls and damage.
It should work.
That would be pretty awesome two handing a heavy cross bow to add 1 1/2 STR plus DEX would make for an interesting switch hitting strategy... add in Savage technologist...
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That would be pretty awesome two handing a heavy cross bow to add 1 1/2 STR plus DEX would make for an interesting switch hitting strategy... add in Savage technologist...No, the weapon is considered either a light or heavy mace.I was wondering about the empty quiver style. Is the weapon still treated as a Crossbow when making melee attacks?
If so that would be awesome for the fith level bolt ace ability.
However, Empty Quiver Flexibility specifically allows you to use any feat or class ability that modify ranged attack rolls and damage with the weapon to be used with melee attack rolls and damage.
It should work.
I'm actually thinking of actually using TWF with hand crossbows or pistols. They count as light maces, so they are light weapons, and you can finesse them for dex to hit and damage in melee or ranged. Hello Grammaton Cleric.
Hey,
I've been out of the loop for a bit and I'm trying to catch up. I'm not quite up to speed, but it seems like the Orcish feats in this book are just about taking Bullying Blow and buffing it into a poor man's Cornugon Smash. Am I missing something here? If not, why wouldn't I just take C. Smash, eliminating the middleman and saving myself some feats?
Later on.
cestus pummeling style?No. The specific limitation in pummeling style overrides the more general ability in Ascetic style. Besides, you can only use them both at the same time if you are a Master of Many Styles monk or a Varisian Freestyle fighter.
It should, however, work with Dragon Style. If you can find a way to get pounce without Pummeling Style (does Varisian Freestyle Fighter stack with Eldritch Guardian? though going the MoMS route might be the better solution either way) then that will hit like a truck.
It should, however, work with Dragon Style. If you can find a way to get pounce without Pummeling Style (does Varisian Freestyle Fighter stack with Eldritch Guardian? though going the MoMS route might be the better solution either way) then that will hit like a truck.cestus pummeling style?No. The specific limitation in pummeling style overrides the more general ability in Ascetic style. Besides, you can only use them both at the same time if you are a Master of Many Styles monk or a Varisian Freestyle fighter.
Pouncing sans Pummeling StyleIt should, however, work with Dragon Style. If you can find a way to get pounce without Pummeling Style (does Varisian Freestyle Fighter stack with Eldritch Guardian? though going the MoMS route might be the better solution either way) then that will hit like a truck.cestus pummeling style?No. The specific limitation in pummeling style overrides the more general ability in Ascetic style. Besides, you can only use them both at the same time if you are a Master of Many Styles monk or a Varisian Freestyle fighter.
I was thinking of Coordinated Charge but this is better. Of course, I fully expect this to get removed like they removed Twist Away.
The two feats are slightly different, and the orc chain is crazy good overall. Cornugon Smash requires Power attack, the orc chain does not. The orc chain, however, only applies shaken on the first attack of a full-attack, so if you miss that youre out of luck. The chain also provides some great benefits. +1 attack/damage to shaken foes, +2 to your first attack is well worth a feat, and the kicker is the last feat. +4 to saves against effects created by shaken foes is very very good, campaign dependent.Hey,
I've been out of the loop for a bit and I'm trying to catch up. I'm not quite up to speed, but it seems like the Orcish feats in this book are just about taking Bullying Blow and buffing it into a poor man's Cornugon Smash. Am I missing something here? If not, why wouldn't I just take C. Smash, eliminating the middleman and saving myself some feats?
Later on.
Sounds like a good tool for a half-orc rogue. Most anyone else who is going for an intimidate build is pumping strength and was going to pick up power attack regardless, prereq for Cornugon Smash or no.
That last feat is very enticing though.
Oh, eurgh. That last feat is really nice but I'm not convinced it's worth the cost they're putting it behind. If you can't go dex-based with Orc Style then the first feat is outright worse than Cornugon Smash and the second one is nice but not fantastic by any stretch.
Yes, but isn't Intimidating Prowess able to be picked up with a rogue talent? This admittedly raises its opportunity cost, but I don't think it makes it a bad option.
Taking Intimidating Prowess as a Rogue is a feat tax far beyond even such legends as Combat Expertise... There are a lot of other things I could do with that rogue talent slot, especially with the improved Unchained talents.
Would Ascetic Style allow brawling armor to apply its attack/damage/grapple bonus to a temple sword?
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. Her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons. This special ability does not prevent the wearer’s unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer’s unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
Or how about allowing a brawler to flurry with the temple sword? Or allow him to use his increased unarmed damage with the sword?
Could an unchained monk use kick/headbutt style strikes with the sword?
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Or how about allowing a brawler to flurry with the temple sword? Or allow him to use his increased unarmed damage with the sword?
Could an unchained monk use kick/headbutt style strikes with the sword?
Yes, but there is very little reason to other than style points since a brawler could have had the same effects with close combat mastery with a close weapon.
Could an unchained monk use kick/headbutt style strikes with the sword?
Yes, with Ascetic Form, the second feat in the chain.
Or how about allowing a brawler to flurry with the temple sword? Or allow him to use his increased unarmed damage with the sword?
Could an unchained monk use kick/headbutt style strikes with the sword?
Yes, but there is very little reason to other than style points since a brawler could have had the same effects with close combat mastery with a close weapon.
Yes, with Ascetic Form, the second feat in the chain.
Could an unchained monk use kick/headbutt style strikes with the sword?
Oh that's a good point. I also forgot that brawlers can already flurry with monk weapons (though proficiency is another matter).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, I was diving into the Rondeleo Swashbuckler to see how many levels to take for my bard and ran into an issue... Doesn't the first half of Rondelero Flexibility do nothing?
action, a rondelero swashbuckler wielding a falcata in one
hand and a buckler in the other can alternate between
using his falcata and his buckler for each attack.
Which means you get a class ability that is already covered in this FAQ
Ok, I was diving into the Rondeleo Swashbuckler to see how many levels to take for my bard and ran into an issue... Doesn't the first half of Rondelero Flexibility do nothing?
Yep.
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Taking Intimidating Prowess as a Rogue is a feat tax far beyond even such legends as Combat Expertise...
Let's not overstate our case. Sure, any feat tax is aggravating, but "worse than CE" made my hyperbole alarm hit a gazillion.
Intimidating Prowess has no prereqs of its own, and will provide a bonus on an action we're looking to perform anyway. Contrast that with Combat Expertise, which is such a train wreck that, by my last count, Paizo had created at least five separate workarounds to its omnipresence in feat chains in the past year.
Remember that, for better or worse, the Player's Companion line is not subject to errata.
Except for at least Heirloom Weapon. That is at least one I know that got errataed.
Now there is the cut from the sky and smash from he air. These run off AoOs. I'd think a Mythic swashbuckler would be utterly awesome at this. It would be hard to hit him in range. Hard to hit him in melee even too.
In terms of Combat Stamina stuff, I am a little saddened that the book's feats didn't get any combat tricks.
And I'm gonna echo the bleh on how Archer, Crossbow, and the like fighters do not qualify for anything thing in the advanced training area.
Also.. Spinning Spear style, works for any polearm/spear. A lance is a spear. A Centaur with Natural Jouster can wield a lance one handed. But can a centaur with natural Jouster wielding the weapon one handed wield the weapon one handed as a double weapon? The lance being wielded in one hand then could also qualify you for Two-handed weapon trick, and shield and weapon weapon trick.. or something. Basically you bend the very laws of reality to your whims
Adventurer's Armory is one of the very first Pathfinder-rules Player Companions, and the only one to ever receive errata.
I think this is what they mean by "the exception that proves the rule". ^_^
Not so! Pirates of the Inner Sea got one; the freebooter archetype was errata'd at some point within the past year.
Also.. Spinning Spear style, works for any polearm/spear. A lance is a spear. A Centaur with Natural Jouster can wield a lance one handed. But can a centaur with natural Jouster wielding the weapon one handed wield the weapon one handed as a double weapon? The lance being wielded in one hand then could also qualify you for Two-handed weapon trick, and shield and weapon weapon trick.. or something. Basically you bend the very laws of reality to your whims
No, because by definition a double weapon is a two-handed weapon where one side is in each hand. A lance cannot be one-handed while also serving as a double weapon; you'd essentially be holding the lance at the half-point, with the pointy spear in one side and the handle at the other.
The scenario that you describe is more you trying to bend the very laws of PATHFINDER to your whims, rather than those of Golarion's reality.
Contributor
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Not so! Pirates of the Inner Sea got one; the freebooter archetype was errata'd at some point within the past year.Adventurer's Armory is one of the very first Pathfinder-rules Player Companions, and the only one to ever receive errata.
I think this is what they mean by "the exception that proves the rule". ^_^
Wow! Did not know about that - thank you! (What changed?)
Maybe some of the others will finally get their issues hammered out. ^_^
Also.. Spinning Spear style, works for any polearm/spear. A lance is a spear. A Centaur with Natural Jouster can wield a lance one handed. But can a centaur with natural Jouster wielding the weapon one handed wield the weapon one handed as a double weapon? The lance being wielded in one hand then could also qualify you for Two-handed weapon trick, and shield and weapon weapon trick.. or something. Basically you bend the very laws of reality to your whimsNo, because by definition a double weapon is a two-handed weapon where one side is in each hand. A lance cannot be one-handed while also serving as a double weapon; you'd essentially be holding the lance at the half-point, with the pointy spear in one side and the handle at the other.
The scenario that you describe is more you trying to bend the very laws of PATHFINDER to your whims, rather than those of Golarion's reality.
I'll see to your bet and raise you Taiaha, A rare case of a 1h weapon with the actual double quality, unlike all the firearms that only count as having the double quality for the purposes of magic stuff.
What I stumbled over really was more of a 2 handed weapon being wielded as in 1 hand, that could be wielded again in two hands, that could be wielded in one hand but still counts as a two handed weapon
Thanks to The Spear dancing Spiral, Your polearm or spear is able to function with Quarter Staff Mastery.
Not so! Pirates of the Inner Sea got one; the freebooter archetype was errata'd at some point within the past year.Adventurer's Armory is one of the very first Pathfinder-rules Player Companions, and the only one to ever receive errata.
I think this is what they mean by "the exception that proves the rule". ^_^
Wow! Did not know about that - thank you! (What changed?)
Maybe some of the others will finally get their issues hammered out. ^_^
I don't have the original around at the moment, but that was one of the ones I did get the subscription for. (I remember being very disappointed that no gun based archetypes for it.)
But If I had to go by what I downloaded just now from the store and the description of it on the store, I'd have to say that Fighter and Ranger got their archetypes mixed up. Maybe? Or maybe the store is still giving out the unerrata version?
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Not so! Pirates of the Inner Sea got one; the freebooter archetype was errata'd at some point within the past year.Adventurer's Armory is one of the very first Pathfinder-rules Player Companions, and the only one to ever receive errata.
I think this is what they mean by "the exception that proves the rule". ^_^
Wow! Did not know about that - thank you! (What changed?)
Maybe some of the others will finally get their issues hammered out. ^_^
I don't have the original around at the moment, but that was one of the ones I did get the subscription for. (I remember being very disappointed that no gun based archetypes for it.)
But If I had to go by what I downloaded just now from the store and the description of it on the store, I'd have to say that Fighter and Ranger got their archetypes mixed up. Maybe? Or maybe the store is still giving out the unerrata version?
It's very possible that Mr. Augunas is referring to an FAQ instead, which would change the "official" version of a rules element without changing the printed text.
Bothering about Sword Saint.
I'll see to your bet and raise you Taiaha, A rare case of a 1h weapon with the actual double quality, unlike all the firearms that only count as having the double quality for the purposes of magic stuff.
What I stumbled over really was more of a 2 handed weapon being wielded as in 1 hand, that could be wielded again in two hands, that could be wielded in one hand but still counts as a two handed weapon
Thanks to The Spear dancing Spiral, Your polearm or spear is able to function with Quarter Staff Mastery.
This is the entry for double weapons in the Core Rulebook:
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
Fighting with two weapons (aka Two-Weapon Fighting) specifically states that you gain extra attacks with your off-hand, which is literally your off-hand. Neither your weapon example nor the Spear Dancing Style modifies this.
There's not even a question of "does my double weapon occupy both of my hands?" because the first SENTENCE of Two-Weapon Fighting in the combat section of the Core Rulebook is as follows: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
Double weapons aren't exempt from this rule either. You must wield the main-hand end in your main hand and the off-hand end in your offhand. The taiaha's status as a one-handed weapon does not modify the properties of the double weapon ability, and neither does the Spear Fighting Style that I wrote for this book.