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!
I had enough of these so called "hero" grave robbers who have to butt into and meddle their way into the affairs of others, with their winsome valor, self diluted righteousness, and gallant daring do.
Its time to set aside the spineless virtuous meek kneed, the suffocating press of vibrant honor bound and the ethical moral purposeless cuckolds.
Enough.
Come forth ye Anti Heroes, Anti Paladins, Black Hearted Rogues, Sycophantic Knaves, Fell Necromancers, Spurned Lovers, True Despots, Whispering Tyrants, Evil Masterminds, Corpulent Plague Daemon Summoners, Unrepentant Slavers, Oath Breakers, False Prophets, Grandfathers of Assassins, Nizari cult members, Sith Lords, Fallen Angels, Undead fanboys, Fox News Analysts and Lawyers.
Arise then and make yourselves known.
It's time to dash the ale and biscuits with Milk of the Poppy.
It's time to wake the orphans and sharpen the guillotine.
It's time to line the Czar's family up against the wall.
It's time to build an Empire.
It's time find the One Ring and Bind them all.
It's time to be the bully in the playground once more!
Pleased to meet you.
Hope you guess my name.
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[Flashback thirty one years ago]
On three, in six, lies nine — But none shall ever see
Vile Good cloaked by Fair Evil for eternity.
Will you answer, Answerer? Where is, your power, pray?
With the whelp of Mitrik and there until doomsday.
I always loved this poem. I don't recall why that one line seemed so fanciful to me, I think I first saw it when I was 12, it was the first time I told the DM via a passed note, "hey, you know what? I am going to betray the party"
[bonus points if you know the source of the poem]
It is from the bowels of the temple of elemental evil. I thought it was in the inky chamber with Prince Thrommels slumbering body but I may be wrong.
The poem is in the pool chamber of the water temple on level two of the toee. It refers to the chamber where Thrommel is held in stasis one level below with his trusty broadsword, fragerach, by his side.
I miss broadswords.
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Welp, going to sit this one out. I hate, despise evil campaigns.
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I'm imagining it as a Golarion version of the Suicide Squad. Could be fun!
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I kinda doubt you can have anti paladins in lawful evil campaign
...At least I assume its lawful evil since Cheliax <_<;
You mean not everybody houserules that Anti-Paladins are Lawful Evil?
Surprising.
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Yes! I am extremely pleased to see this on the lineup. When I saw Hell's Rebels, my general reaction was that I was pleased to be getting more info on Cheliax and by extension Devils, but that I would have rather have had a Cheliax AP where the players worked *for* the Thrune regime. And that's exactly what this appears to be. I very much look forward to this coming out.
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I'm very enthusiastic about this announcement! I'll definitely be looking forward to this one.
Is Wes writing one of the adventures?
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I like it. Something that doesn't follow the same blueprint
Anti-Paladin archetype: Tyrant from Hell. Or something. ;)
Alternatively, assorted campaign traits that work around the more irksome alignment restrictions.
Infernal Dominator (barbarian archetype, allows LE barbarians).
etc.
Creative Director
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I kinda doubt you can have anti paladins in lawful evil campaign
...At least I assume its lawful evil since Cheliax <_<;
It's an EVIL campaign.
It's not something we're likely to do often, or perhaps EVER again, and as such, we'll be striving to make it workable for lawful, neutral, and chaotic evil PCs.
AKA: Antipaladins are an option.
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Is Wes writing one of the adventures?If you mean F. Wesley Schneider -
Pathfinder Adventure Path #103: "Hell´s Vengeance: Hellfire Compact" by F. Wesley Schneider.
I hope he can manage writing both his first novel (Pathfinder Tales #30: Bloodbound) and the opening salvo for an AP...
Turns out he's already written both before you ever heard this announcement.
And rocked them both.
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Is Wes writing one of the adventures?If you mean F. Wesley Schneider -
Pathfinder Adventure Path #103: "Hell´s Vengeance: Hellfire Compact" by F. Wesley Schneider.
I hope he can manage writing both his first novel (Pathfinder Tales #30: Bloodbound) and the opening salvo for an AP...
There's a lineup of individual adventure names and authors? Where can I find it?
There's a lineup of individual adventure names and authors? Where can I find it?
I think that's the only one known/announced so far.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I presume this AP will include GM/player advice for making evil campaigns work. It's doable and can be fun, but you need some ground rules so that players don't ruin each other's fun.
Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.
The secret is everyone needs to be working for a common goal something that would benefit all of them to work together, it doesn't take a goody goody party to make that happen.
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The secret is everyone needs to be working for a common goal something that would benefit all of them to work together, it doesn't take a goody goody party to make that happen.
And making sure your players understand up front that they are playing people and not cartoon characters. It requires a reminder that there are consequences for their actions.
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Creative Director
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I presume this AP will include GM/player advice for making evil campaigns work. It's doable and can be fun, but you need some ground rules so that players don't ruin each other's fun.
Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.
Absolutely. Starting with the Player's Guide and continuing with how each adventure is written we'll be providing advice for how to handle evil parties.
Evil does NOT equal party strife/PVP.
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I'd argue those last two groups aren't Evil-aligned.
But a fair selection of villain groups in movies and books have minimal friction as well. Not all, but I don't recall Hans Gruber's men in Die Hard turning on each other, just to list the first example that leaps to mind.
Frankly, it's not all that hard to avoid inter-PC friction in an Evil group. The trick is to remember that Evil characters are people. They usually have friends, and allies, and loved ones, and probably aren't notably more likely to attack or betray such people than a Neutral character is.
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I presume this AP will include GM/player advice for making evil campaigns work. It's doable and can be fun, but you need some ground rules so that players don't ruin each other's fun.
Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.
Absolutely. Starting with the Player's Guide and continuing with how each adventure is written we'll be providing advice for how to handle evil parties.
Evil does NOT equal party strife/PVP.
Very much looking forward to this and devious Cheliax plots!
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But a fair selection of villain groups in movies and books have minimal friction as well. Not all, but I don't recall Hans Gruber's men in Die Hard turning on each other, just to list the first example that leaps to mind.
Hans Gruber's men, or any of the other henchmen in the Die Hard franchise, were just cardboard minions though, so it's not quite applicable in my opinion. In order to demonstrate how four evil PCs of equal standing can work together, you need a situation more analogous to that. All too often, villains in fiction are the boss and minions who will be killed if they don't obey the boss' orders. It's easy to make evil work together in a situation like that because they're afraid for their lives. That sort of dynamic doesn't work for a PC party, necessarily (or it'll be very complicated to make it work).
One option is to make sure that all the PCs are related, and that all suffer the same drawback/flaw: "will not harm a family member".
Also, Champions of Corruption (Player Companion line) has some tips on playing evil characters without the entire party suffering a meltdown/turning on each other.
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Hans Gruber's men, or any of the other henchmen in the Die Hard franchise, were just cardboard minions though, so it's not quite applicable in my opinion.
His safecracker and his right-hand man (the one whose brother John McClane kills first) are both significantly more than cardboard minions. They're not his equals, but they give him back talk and are fairly well realized characters for non-main characters in a movie.
In order to demonstrate how four evil PCs of equal standing can work together, you need a situation more analogous to that.
Here, you have a better point. That particular dynamic is rare in characters in media who could actually be considered evil. I can think of several 'villain' teams that have friendships and close relationships (the villains in Season 3 of Legend of Korra leap to mind), but they tend to not be 'Evil' per se. At least not in the 'work with fiends' sense.
All too often, villains in fiction are the boss and minions who will be killed if they don't obey the boss' orders. It's easy to make evil work together in a situation like that because they're afraid for their lives. That sort of dynamic doesn't work for a PC party, necessarily (or it'll be very complicated to make it work).
This is true in some cases, but frankly, not all that many. Fear doesn't inspire nearly as much loyalty as the possibility of gain, and that's borne out in most fiction. Again, for example, Hans Gruber's minions aren't scared he'll kill them, they think he'll make them rich.
That's a more sustainable dynamic for a party, though still perhaps not ideal. A combination of that and actual friendship is probably best.
There's definitely a certain amount of that in media, too. Look at large portions of most TV shows and movies where the protagonists are members of organized crime. There tends to quite a lot of legitimate loyalty among main characters in things like sons of Anarchy or Peaky Blinders. Yeah, something usually happens to break some of those bonds of loyalty in those shows...but that's not inherent to them existing, and usually requires one of them to betray another in some way...they're very loyal up until that point. And, frankly, the same often happens with non 'evil' characters in long-running shows (they're just a bit more likely to reconcile rather than kill each other). The real difference in many cases is simply that 'evil' characters are less forgiving of betrayal.
The 'secret', such as it is, is to just not be the guy who betrays anyone. If nobody does that, there's no need for the bonds of loyalty to break down, and party cohesion can remain really solid.
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It's amusing seeing people brush this off without even considering looking at it. "It's evil! My players will hate it! I won't buy it!" It's like they're Jedi or something, dealing with Absolutes. ;)
There is an alternative of course. Evil can also be "obeying the orders of your superior" without considering the consequences or just not caring about them. Think of a guard at a concentration camp. They may not be looting the dead or forcing themselves on prisoners... but that doesn't lessen the evil of what they do. Likewise, if the PCs are just following orders... if they kill a smuggler, for instance, and ignore the fact he's got children to feed? Or even the fact that the children WILL HAVE LOST THEIR FATHER.
There are plenty of ways to have an evil game without it being mustache twirling and ominous laughter all around.
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If the player characters in this adventure can have any of the three evil alignments and are in service to House Thrune, that would represent an interesting change from Chelaxian tradition. The standard situation in Cheliax is an uneasy alliance of the three lawful alignments against the chaotic alignments.
So the question is, was House Thrune's switch from an all-lawful alliance to an all-evil alliance a cause or an effect of the general rebellion? In other words -- are the lawful good types rebelling because House Thrune turned on them, or did enough lawful good and lawful neutral types decide that they had finally had enough and rebelled on their own?
I am looking forward to finding out the answer to that mystery in a few months.
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Another thing, I have seen maybe one evil character cause problems in a party, and many, many paladins do their best to ruin everyone else's fun. sometimes even in all good aligned parties.
My opinion is that it is the lawful good characters that cause more problems and disruptions.
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I have seen players decide they want to ruin everyone else's fun and do this no matter what class they play or what alignment they are. My own games are run without alignment. My Paladins are Paladins of their Gods and Goddesses - thus their fealty is to their Church, and their actions are based on obeying their Church and doing actions for the Good of that Church. (Though I will admit the Warpriest is a better concept for this in many ways.)
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And I have seen evil characters cause bad blood every time in mixed alignment parties, and have never seen a paladin disrupt anything.
It's almost like anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
Considering the lack of scholarly study on most roleplaying topics, what would you suggest as the basis of discussion if not anecdotal evidence? Everyone just sitting in a circle being quiet? I'm pretty sure that there are no scholarly studies on what are the most used spells in D&D; does that mean we can't discuss the topic since all anyone has is anecdotal evidence?
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Considering the lack of scholarly study on most roleplaying topics, what would you suggest as the basis of discussion if not anecdotal evidence? Everyone just sitting in a circle being quiet? I'm pretty sure that there are no scholarly studies on what are the most used spells in D&D; does that mean we can't discuss the topic since all anyone has is anecdotal evidence?And I have seen evil characters cause bad blood every time in mixed alignment parties, and have never seen a paladin disrupt anything.
It's almost like anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
There are plenty of sources of evidence between "I did a peer reviewed double blind study with robust statistical analysis" and "easily contradicted anecdotes without context."
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Is Wes writing one of the adventures?
Yup!
Is Wes writing one of the adventures?If you mean F. Wesley Schneider -
Pathfinder Adventure Path #103: "Hell´s Vengeance: Hellfire Compact" by F. Wesley Schneider.
I hope he can manage writing both his first novel (Pathfinder Tales #30: Bloodbound) and the opening salvo for an AP...
Shouldn't be a prob, especially since both are already done. :D
In fact, one's already at the printer.
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Turns out he's already written both before you ever heard this announcement.
And rocked them both.
Rah!
Yet another instance where I need a tiny pennant to wave.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hans Gruber's men, or any of the other henchmen in the Die Hard franchise, were just cardboard minions though, so it's not quite applicable in my opinion.His safecracker and his right-hand man (the one whose brother John McClane kills first) are both significantly more than cardboard minions. They're not his equals, but they give him back talk and are fairly well realized characters for non-main characters in a movie.
In order to demonstrate how four evil PCs of equal standing can work together, you need a situation more analogous to that.Here, you have a better point. That particular dynamic is rare in characters in media who could actually be considered evil. I can think of several 'villain' teams that have friendships and close relationships (the villains in Season 3 of Legend of Korra leap to mind), but they tend to not be 'Evil' per se. At least not in the 'work with fiends' sense.
All too often, villains in fiction are the boss and minions who will be killed if they don't obey the boss' orders. It's easy to make evil work together in a situation like that because they're afraid for their lives. That sort of dynamic doesn't work for a PC party, necessarily (or it'll be very complicated to make it work).This is true in some cases, but frankly, not all that many. Fear doesn't inspire nearly as much loyalty as the possibility of gain, and that's borne out in most fiction. Again, for example, Hans Gruber's minions aren't scared he'll kill them, they think he'll make them rich.
That's a more sustainable dynamic for a party, though still perhaps not ideal. A combination of that and actual friendship is probably best.
There's definitely a certain amount of that in media, too. Look at large portions of most TV shows and movies where the protagonists are members of organized crime. There tends to quite a lot of legitimate loyalty among main characters in things like sons of Anarchy or Peaky Blinders. Yeah, something...
I've been watching the anime Hunter X Hunter recently and there is a very good example of an evil but cooperative group there. There is a gang of thieves called the Phantom Troupe and they are all murderous killers - but they care about each other. Every member is a unique "PC level" character, not a mook, and they resolve internal disagreements by coin flip. Which is good, because a fight between two of them would accidentally level a good chunk of a city.
I presume this AP will include GM/player advice for making evil campaigns work. It's doable and can be fun, but you need some ground rules so that players don't ruin each other's fun.
Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.
Absolutely. Starting with the Player's Guide and continuing with how each adventure is written we'll be providing advice for how to handle evil parties.
Evil does NOT equal party strife/PVP.
I am interested in the paizonian approach to evil characters. So far with few exceptions, evil characters have been believable, if not understandable.
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Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.
In my experience (anecdotal, I know, but bear with me), PvP is not a question of good/evil alignment - it's a question of whether your PCs are jerks or mature human beings (aka the "DBAJ" rule).
I note that there are a number of very successful Way of the Wicked games on this forum; and I do not see any evidence that PvP occurs any more frequently in those than in other APs.
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I've been watching the anime Hunter X Hunter recently and there is a very good example of an evil but cooperative group there. There is a gang of thieves called the Phantom Troupe and they are all murderous killers - but they care about each other. Every member is a unique "PC level" character, not a mook, and they resolve internal disagreements by coin flip. Which is good, because a fight between two of them would accidentally level a good chunk of a city.Hans Gruber's men, or any of the other henchmen in the Die Hard franchise, were just cardboard minions though, so it's not quite applicable in my opinion.His safecracker and his right-hand man (the one whose brother John McClane kills first) are both significantly more than cardboard minions. They're not his equals, but they give him back talk and are fairly well realized characters for non-main characters in a movie.
In order to demonstrate how four evil PCs of equal standing can work together, you need a situation more analogous to that.Here, you have a better point. That particular dynamic is rare in characters in media who could actually be considered evil. I can think of several 'villain' teams that have friendships and close relationships (the villains in Season 3 of Legend of Korra leap to mind), but they tend to not be 'Evil' per se. At least not in the 'work with fiends' sense.
All too often, villains in fiction are the boss and minions who will be killed if they don't obey the boss' orders. It's easy to make evil work together in a situation like that because they're afraid for their lives. That sort of dynamic doesn't work for a PC party, necessarily (or it'll be very complicated to make it work).This is true in some cases, but frankly, not all that many. Fear doesn't inspire nearly as much loyalty as the possibility of gain, and that's borne out in most fiction. Again, for example, Hans Gruber's minions aren't scared he'll kill them, they think he'll make them rich.
That's a more sustainable dynamic for a party, though still perhaps not ideal. A combination of that and actual friendship is probably best.
There's definitely a certain amount of that in media, too. Look at large portions of most TV shows and movies where the protagonists are members of organized crime. There tends to quite a lot of legitimate loyalty among main characters in things like sons of Anarchy or
*Looks at Hisoka (and Feitan, to a lesser extent)*
*Looks back at you*
*Raises eyebrow*
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Time for all those b+!@&es that were bragging when Hell's Rebels was announced about how Thrune was gonna pay, well guess what a*$!*#+s! Time to eat crow... or rat... or whatever it is poor people eat.
I'm young, in charge, and I'm not going away!
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Time for all those b*$$*es that were bragging when Hell's Rebels was announced about how Thrune was gonna pay, well guess what a&~!&+&s! Time to eat crow... or rat... or whatever it is poor people eat.
I'm young, in charge, and I'm not going away!
My Lady we shall stomp out this rebellious speech from those insipid Andoranian sympathizers and take back what they have stolen from us!
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Abby Thrune... Abby Thrune... oh yes! I remember that girl. Came through a bit ago and requested a name change. She didn't like her old surname... what was it again? Oh yes, now I recall.
Normal.