Cheliax Rising? Hell's Vengeance?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Silver Crusade Contributor

Rynjin wrote:

The PCs are the protagonists, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them the "good guys" and their antagonists "bad guys".

Good examples if you watch anime: Light Yagami and Lelouch Lamperouge are both the main protagonists of their respective series.

They are not good guys.

(If you're responding to me...)

Yes, I know the difference between a protagonist and a "good guy". ^_^

The way I read Carrion Crown, though, it seems like the PCs are assumed to be (among other things) willing to help those in need. There are options for if they hold out, but the AP seems to assume that they want to save Ravengro/help the Beast/etc.

Book 5 is half-written around the assumption that the PCs are too moral/religious to even consider working with the (spoilers).


Kalindlara wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

The PCs are the protagonists, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them the "good guys" and their antagonists "bad guys".

Good examples if you watch anime: Light Yagami and Lelouch Lamperouge are both the main protagonists of their respective series.

They are not good guys.

(If you're responding to me...)

Yes, I know the difference between a protagonist and a "good guy". ^_^

The way I read Carrion Crown, though, it seems like the PCs are assumed to be (among other things) willing to help those in need. There are options for if they hold out, but the AP seems to assume that they want to save Ravengro/help the Beast/etc.

Book 5 is half-written around the assumption that the PCs are too moral/religious to even consider working with the (spoilers).

And yet, it's not necessary for them to be so, and the AP really doesn't make that many assumptions about their goodwill.

You sort of have a point on Ravengro (they have no real reason to investigate Harrowstone other than curiosity), but remember that Daramid flat out says "I will give you a ridiculously large sack of gold to defend the Beats for me", and from Book 3 on they're invested in the whole "The world will end if we don't do X" plot, which fits a wide range of characters, even a fully Evil party (The world is where I keep my stuff, after all). Book 5 largely assumes the party WILL actually be working with the [Spoilers], providing alternatives in sidebars, but not really the main text of the book as I recall it.

Plus, it's easy to ignore Ravengro since if you're running Carrion Crown properly by the end of book 2 the party should meet the mention of the town and a man called "Petros Lorrimor" with looks of confusion and a "Never heard of 'em."

Silver Crusade Contributor

It's definitely written so that parties of any stripe will be motivated.

I just can't see it as "gray party is the assumption" at all.

(Also a little unclear on "running Carrion Crown properly". I'd like to think I've done so...)


Between Harrowstone itself and the meat grinder that is Schloss Caromarc, it is my experience that all original members of the party are dead by the end of Trial of the Beast.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Fair enough. ^_^

My party had two clerics and a healing-hex witch, so they did all right in Harrowstone. As for Schloss Caromarc, we called it Castle No Handrails.

That said, I think we're officially derailing...

Dark Archive

There are no Veiled Masters.

Continue living your lives as normal or BE DESTROYED!

Dark Archive

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Eh, play PFS and serve the Decemvirate, a bunch of people who nobody knows who they are, who hoard ancient magic and lore, and who disappear any knowledge (or items, or *people*) that they don't think the filthy peasants need to worry their pretty little heads about.

Seems like anyone who plays PFS already knows what it's like to work for a bunch of sketchy folk up to no good...

Silver Crusade Contributor

Set wrote:

Eh, play PFS and serve the Decemvirate, a bunch of people who nobody knows who they are, who hoard ancient magic and lore, and who disappear any knowledge (or items, or *people*) that they don't think the filthy peasants need to worry their pretty little heads about.

Seems like anyone who plays PFS already knows what it's like to work for a bunch of sketchy folk up to no good...

Yeah... I would never assume I was working for the "good guys" in PFS. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:

Fair enough. ^_^

My party had two clerics and a healing-hex witch, so they did all right in Harrowstone. As for Schloss Caromarc, we called it Castle No Handrails.

That said, I think we're officially derailing...

I made sure to specifically make a point of calling out every single time the AP said there were no handrails, and had Daramid point it out as well, playing up Caromarc as having some insane hatred of handrails.

The players thought I was kidding until the Barbarian met his end at the hands of Air Elemental drop tornadoing. Then they minded the warnings from there on.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Rynjin wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

Fair enough. ^_^

My party had two clerics and a healing-hex witch, so they did all right in Harrowstone. As for Schloss Caromarc, we called it Castle No Handrails.

That said, I think we're officially derailing...

I made sure to specifically make a point of calling out every single time the AP said there were no handrails, and had Daramid point it out as well, playing up Caromarc as having some insane hatred of handrails.

The players thought I was kidding until the Barbarian met his end at the hands of Air Elemental drop tornadoing. Then they minded the warnings from there on.

Derail:
We concluded that handrails must have killed his parents.

My party bypassed the air elemental trap and forced the erinyes into melee. No falls.

The Exchange

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If you derail the thread to get on the topic of rails, is that bad?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Lord Snow wrote:
If you derail the thread to get on the topic of rails, is that bad?

Maybe that's what happened to the Count - his home life was steady and on-track, but with the death of his wife, it got...

Derailed.


Maybe he thought the workers would lean on them all the time


Rynjin wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Most of their AP are rarely pure "Black vs White", also, like WotR and Iron Gods, this is kind of a test.

There's a good chunk that aren't.

Skull and Shackles is "Dark gray vs Black".

Carrion Crown is Gray vs Black (shady Illuminati-esque shadow organization vs The Unambiguously Evil Troupe).

Kingmaker isn't really aligned at all, I think. Us vs Them at best. Or Man vs Nature.

As I recall, Jade Regent is more of a politically charged scenario than a clear "Good vs Evil".

More or less what I said.

And, you are more likely to meet Good aligned Douchebags than Evil ones, Hell, Good Aligned PCs being murder hobos...


I think most APs assume an at least neutral party.

Jade Regent with an evil party would be bizarre.

Spoiler:
Receiving the Mandate of Heaven from a lawful good goddess is a thing in that AP, after all.

You could probably play Hell's Vengeance with a neutral and probably amoral party.

I'm guessing the opponents in Hell's Vengeance will be all over the spectrum. House Thrune has many enemies.

Hell Unleashed:
I love that the shop belonging to the Whore Queen Mahathallah has an item with Queen Abrogail's soul as the price tag. (Though the soul of Taldor's Grand Prince Stavian III is also an acceptable payment.)


Gorbacz wrote:
Yes, but there's a question if they serve Cheliax's masters, Cheliax's masters' masters, or Cheliax's masters's masters' masters, OR the Veiled Masters ;-)

Or the Masters of the Universe.


Zhangar wrote:

I think most APs assume an at least neutral party.

Jade Regent with an evil party would be bizarre.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, yes, but still not unheard of...

Spoiler:
Don't forget that there have been evil emperors of Minkai in the past who also had the same divine mandate; the party fights something like two or three of them in the final adventure.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

I think most APs assume an at least neutral party.

Jade Regent with an evil party would be bizarre.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, yes, but still not unheard of...

** spoiler omitted **

Heh.

Spoiler:
Actually, they probably didn't. The party has the option of allying with the failed emperors and getting their blessing instead of passing the test and getting Shizuru's blessing.

With horrible consequences for Minkai.

Definitely a bit of "you're doing it wrong" if the party takes that route...


Zhangar wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

I think most APs assume an at least neutral party.

Jade Regent with an evil party would be bizarre.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, yes, but still not unheard of...

** spoiler omitted **

Heh. ** spoiler omitted **

And it was a "you can't eat the cake and still have it" thing.

Liberty's Edge

Humm, I have not found playing in or even running evil campaigns to be fun. I am taking a wait and see on this adventure path. I will discuss this with my fellow DMs to see what their thoughts are.


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Zhangar wrote:

I think most APs assume an at least neutral party.

Jade Regent with an evil party would be bizarre.

** spoiler omitted **

You could probably play Hell's Vengeance with a neutral and probably amoral party.

I'm guessing the opponents in Hell's Vengeance will be all over the spectrum. House Thrune has many enemies.

** spoiler omitted **

Amusingly, my fetchling bard/warlock managed to become the General of the Knights of Kenabres in Wrath of the Righteous. She lead them quite well and they knew from the start she was a working whore before she happened to fall into the hole during the Armasse ceremoney and she never hid that job from them.

She also maxed bluff, diplomacy, charisma, had a circlet of persuasion and kept a constant undetectable alignment up. She was a chaotic evil worshipper of Socothbenoth and sadly the campaign ended at the end of book 2 where she was going to try and talk the Queen into letting her be the ruler of Drezen, which she certainly would've succeeded at as she'd managed to 'redeem' a succubus so obviously she was amazing!

You can play evil in any of the published campaigns. Almost all of my characters are. It's just how you play it, their motives and their intelligence in how they interact with the party. Being evil doesn't necessarily mean cruel or sadistic and it certainly doesn't mean stupid.


Kalindlara wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

The PCs are the protagonists, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them the "good guys" and their antagonists "bad guys".

Good examples if you watch anime: Light Yagami and Lelouch Lamperouge are both the main protagonists of their respective series.

They are not good guys.

(If you're responding to me...)

Yes, I know the difference between a protagonist and a "good guy". ^_^

The way I read Carrion Crown, though, it seems like the PCs are assumed to be (among other things) willing to help those in need. There are options for if they hold out, but the AP seems to assume that they want to save Ravengro/help the Beast/etc.

Book 5 is half-written around the assumption that the PCs are too moral/religious to even consider working with the (spoilers).

Many AP would be easier for Evil parties than good ones, if just for circumventing many magical traps, a good deal of the "But Thou Must" and/or "But Thou Can't", or alignment restricted awesome gears. Kinda like undead PCs would have an happy time in many AP.


James Jacobs wrote:
ryric wrote:

I presume this AP will include GM/player advice for making evil campaigns work. It's doable and can be fun, but you need some ground rules so that players don't ruin each other's fun.

Too many players see that "E" in their alignment and use it as an excuse to be a jerk and mess with other players in unfun ways.

Absolutely. Starting with the Player's Guide and continuing with how each adventure is written we'll be providing advice for how to handle evil parties.

Evil does NOT equal party strife/PVP.

Long years of people complaining about Paladins (or stupid-CN) would have made it clear you don't even need evil!

James Jacobs wrote:
The whole POINT of Hell's Vengeance is to play evil characters. You COULD play it with neutral, or even good characters, just as I suppose you COULD play Kingmaker with characters who don't want to rule a kingdom, Runelords with agents of Thassilon eager to let Karzoug rule, Skull & Shackles with paladins intent on eradicating piracy, or Iron Gods without using technology... but it's gonna require a LOT of work on the GM's behalf to rebuild and fix.

10/10 - would play highlighted.

Anyway: As an out-of-the-ordinary-AP, I am pleased to see an evil campaign. There is, even if most people reasonably typically balk at the things it often entails, a certain pleasure to be had in kicking back and letting out a bit of villainy.
Also - working the campaign even for CE is, from my experience, new. I've rarely seen a GM even entertain the thought.


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Well, when we played Runelords, we took out Karzoug, and took on the mantles of the new Runelords in an extended campaign.

Not evil, but probably not what was intended.


Skulls and shackles is easier with evil or neutral than good


Hell's Vengeance might have ties with at least 2 AP (CoT and Hell's Rebels) if somewhat directly, to around half of them if somewhat indirectly.


Also Skull and Shackles. (Chelish Navy goes boom.)


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Also Skull and Shackles. (Chelish Navy goes boom.)

I counted it as indirectly, but it being touched directly isn't impossible.


In my Way of the Wicked campaign we pulled a twist that gave Mitra a kick in the pants and screwed up Asmodeus's plans. One of the prisoners from the start was actually a servant of the Great Goddess who's soul was already pledged to the Goddess. The Goddess had among her areas of interest Dusk, Dawn, Twilight, and Just Vengeance with both good and evil followers, had inserted her own servant to weaken the semi-corrupt church of Mitra and to foil Asmodeus's master plan.
The first the Princess and her allies knows about this is when after getting the Veil it suddenly flies away to the altar where they see a black clad woman sitting on the altar playing with the Veil who says, "It's about time that idiot Mitra woke up and paid attention to what is going on."
As the Princess & Co. charge the altar they find themselves completely helpless, only able to speak. The Princess Bellinda fell silent in shock as the Solar of Mitra begged, "Great Lady, Please I beg you do not tear the Veil, please, please.."
The Goddess tossed the Veil back to Bellinda and said, "Let's talk about how things really are and what you are going to do".
The Princess & Co. were educated in how the Asmodeans were fooled into thinking some of their plans had succeed like the massacre of children when in fact the Goddess had spirited the children to her realm for safety, to be returned after the war as one example.
Then there were the changes to the Church of Mitra and the kingdom such as allowing other select faiths full religious freedom, relaxing restrictions on arcane magic, demoting non divine spellcasters in the church hierarchy to official title of "minions of the church" including loss of all pay and privilege, etc.

And the burning question of how she could get away with all she did?. Well, she was much more powerful than both Mitra and Asmodeus, and her plans benefited other Powers (it helped that they happened to be kind of afraid of her).


I literally can not wait for this to come out. My antipaladin and Red Mantis Assassin from previous Way of the Wicked campaigns were two of the most fun characters I ever got to play.

Dark Archive

Anybody got a link for the announcements about this campaign? I totally missed it and I'd like to see what official info has been released thus far.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm starting to think of some concepts already:

Fetchling (sent by Nidal) mesmerist (vexing daredevil) and human occultist (battle host); I know battle host loses a bit from the base occultist, but having a character start with masterwork hellknight armor, Transmutation for the Str boost resonant power and enlarge person from Size Alteration (plus lead blades as the 1st-level spell), then Conjuration at 2nd for the Servitor and Conjure Implement to call up any masterwork weapon (i.e., transmutation implement) to be enhanced with Legacy Weapon, sounds like a lot of fun.


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Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.

We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...


James Jacobs wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.
We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...

Agent of the Grave, Winter Witch...?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rynjin wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.
We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...
Agent of the Grave, Winter Witch...?

Over the course of 100 or so books? That's not a lot at all.

Silver Crusade Contributor

James Jacobs wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.
We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...
Agent of the Grave, Winter Witch...?
Over the course of 100 or so books? That's not a lot at all.

Also, Winter Witch premiered in Inner Sea Magic - it was merely reprinted in Reign of Winter.


James Jacobs wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.
We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...
Agent of the Grave, Winter Witch...?
Over the course of 100 or so books? That's not a lot at all.

JuJu Oracle, Sin Magic Specialist...look, all I'm saying is that "That's not something we do" just isn't accurate, since I named examples from 3 (four if you count reprinting) different Adventure Paths just off the top of my head.

What I can take from this is "We have no plans to do so for these APs" though?


James Jacobs wrote:
Gars DarkLover wrote:
Need more Shadow/Darkness themed classes and archetypes, and more Evil themed classes and archetypes.
We don't really do archetypes or classes in the Adventure Path line...

Campaign Setting? Player Companion? RPG Line?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Thassilonian Specialist also originates in Inner Sea Magic. ^_^


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Man, I almost forgot the Advanced Class Guide.

That's a book in the Adventure Path line with a TON of archetypes and classes!

Silver Crusade Contributor

Classes and archetypes premiered in Adventure Paths:

AP #2: Spherewalker (prestige class)
AP #5: Ashvawg tamer ("archetype")
AP #8: Justiciar (prestige class)
AP #14: Chevalier (prestige class)
AP #15: Pain taster, demonic initiate (prestige classes)
AP #22: Advance Warning, Master of Disguise (feats)
AP #26: Inheritor's Crusader (prestige class)
AP #29: Pestilence sorcerer bloodline (never reprinted elsewhere!)
AP #39: Juju oracle mystery, Cry of Mercy (feat)
AP #45: Agent of the Grave (prestige class)

After this point, such content pretty much dries up. So, it's not really something Paizo does any more.

(If I've missed something, let me know - this was hastily assembled from memory.)

Silver Crusade Contributor

Rynjin wrote:

Man, I almost forgot the Advanced Class Guide.

That's a book in the Adventure Path line with a TON of archetypes and classes!

I'll admit, I laughed at this. ^_^


I don't own any of the APs released after 2011 or 2012 (whenever Shattered Star was released), so I figured they kept up the same pattern.

I also didn't know Pain Taster was from an AP (I'm guessing Second Darkness?). It's one of my favorites, but it's nearly impossible to qualify for.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Pain Taster originates in The Armageddon Echo's article on drow, but was updated to Pathfinder in Occult Mysteries. (The other one, demonic initiate, was explicitly replaced by the demoniac from Book of the Damned - Lords of Chaos.)

As for the various deity-specific prestige classes, I believe that the three from Inner Sea Gods - evangelist, exalted, and sentinel - are meant to replace them. I don't have a citation on hand, though, other than "a post somewhere".


Kalindlara wrote:
(If I've missed something, let me know - this was hastily assembled from memory.)

Only ones I can think of are the two mysteries from Reign of Winter (Rasputin's) and Iron Gods (the android girl's). Otherwise, you got a bunch I wouldn't have thought of.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
(If I've missed something, let me know - this was hastily assembled from memory.)
Only ones I can think of are the two mysteries from Reign of Winter (Rasputin's) and Iron Gods (the android girl's). Otherwise, you got a bunch I wouldn't have thought of.

Aaaagh! You're right! ^_^

AP #71: Occult oracle mystery (later reprinted in, appropriately, Occult Mysteries)
AP #88: Shattered psyche oracle curse


Rynjin wrote:

Man, I almost forgot the Advanced Class Guide.

That's a book in the Adventure Path line with a TON of archetypes and classes!

I am ashamed it took me 2 hours and 15 minutes to get it.


Looking forward to this one. My only concern is my group is literally finishing up book six of Way of the Wicked soon. Amazing game, although I was gutted book 7 came so late for it.

I'm sure it's been said a lot, but hopefully the two are as different as evil adventure paths with Big As in the background can be.


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I think you accidentally missed an s.

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