Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.
Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.
I read the rules the same way.
"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.
The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.
The helpless condition applies itself whenever any one or more of the following situations happens:
Paralyzed
Held
Bound
Sleeping
Unconscious
You guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.
Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.
Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.
I read the rules the same way.
"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.
The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.
The helpless condition applies itself whenever any one or more of the following situations happens:
Paralyzed
Held
Bound
Sleeping
UnconsciousYou guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.
Wait, it actually SAYS that somewhere? Cite your source please, I like grapple builds, and if you are correct, this is a game changer.
This is an interesting debate. Though I don't think being bound by a pin means you are susceptible to coup de grace, a really great case is being made for it.
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And as _Ozy_ pointed out, they -the devs- could have stated pinned and helpless, but they didn't. Does this mean you can't interprete it as you do? No, you can, but it is an interpretation of how you understand some words on the description, not how the rule has been spoken out.
Numarak, I agree that grappled and pinned is not helpless, but be careful to assign blame or credit about how this game works to the devs - they did not invent this game, they imported it from D&D 3.5 and made some adjustments. You're "bound" (pun intended :) ) to see some artifacts from that game we all knew and loved here and then. It's also hard for the devs to make rulings on fundamental features of the game that were imported, and I suppose they would have to hold meetings and achieve consensus or vote when they change major parts of the game.
Here's what I *think* RAW says about bound: (emphasis mine)
"Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check."
Therefore, target is bound if she doesn't beat the DC in the first bolded sentence, and she's bound automatically if her CMB is less than the one who tied her up.
I would for sure consider someone who was, say, tied to a mast or a pillar, to be helpless (bound).
Are there rules on getting someone into this state?
That's all fine and dandy, but where is it from? Also, durh, can't believe I missed that, that's what happens when I stay up all night playing awesome PS2 games from a decade ago. :D
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So...
1)Grapple
2)Pin
3)Tie Up
4)Coup de Grace
Even with help, this isn't a game breaking idea. I'm convinced this is how it works, despite Pin stating that someone is 'tightly bound', I think the fact that they still have AC (albeit at a lower level) implies that they are not yet totally helpless.
Even with two people, this is a multiple-round attack, which you can probably use more effective actions in.
There are only two conditions that include adding the helpless condition. Unconscious, and Paralyzed. For anything else to work with a coup de grace, it would have to specifically add the helpless condition to the creature.
This is an interesting debate. Though I don't think being bound by a pin means you are susceptible to coup de grace, a really great case is being made for it.
No, a really great case for the rules not be well written and having a lot of hold-over baggage from 3.5 is what's happening here.
While the RAW is dubious leaning towards it being allowed, it is obviously not intentional. This is exactly what happens every time someone comes in screaming about RAW this and RAW that!
It's b.s.
Helpless:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Would you argue that a person who LITERALLY CANNOT ESCAPE (assuming the DC was high enough) met the conditions for being 'bound' or not?
I would argue that if you a)grappled b)pinned c)tied up... then, you could coup de grace.
I mean, if we want to argue semantics and linguistics here, I will point out that gently hugging someone fulfills the linguistically correct requirement for making someone 'held'.
As in, "I held her softly". So... yeah... they also build in some 'wiggle room' by saying "...otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy". So it isn't just a specific set of conditions, those are just examples.
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Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.
Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.
I read the rules the same way.
"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.
The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.
Personally I have basically no issues with this, you have a moderately combat optimized animal companion (being taken out of the fight for 2 rounds as well as who ever is going to be delivering the coup de grace taken out for at least one round.).
So are bound and helpless the same thing for the purposes of one's ability to deliver a coup de grace?
Can you still be coup de grace'd if you are bound, but not helpless? What if you are helpless, but not bound?
Seems to me these are the basic questions being asked.
Bound is not listed as a standard condition, implying that normal English is being used. That means we should apply common sense. If RAI was that a pinned creature was also helpless it would presumably say so.
There are many different types of 'bound' in English. If your hands are tied together, you're not helpless. If your hands are bound to a post and your feet to another post and their stretched apart so you can't move, you're helpless.
If someone gives me a hug, I am 'held' but not helpless. If someone pins me down, I am 'bound' but not helpless.
You guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.
That fact only has definitive relevance if you can cite an official reference that defines the Bound Condition.
Oh, wait... there is none.
1. Must a creature have the Helpless Condition in order for a Coup De Grace to be attempted? : Absolutely.
2. Do "Bound" creatures have the Helpless Condition? : Absolutely.
3. Are "Bound" and Tied Up the same? : Possibly... maybe even probably.
4. Are Tied up and Pinned the same? : They are similar, but Tied up is clearly a more restrictive type of Pinned (just like Pinned is a more restrictive type of Grapple), so very likely not true.
The premise that a Pinned opponent is subject to a CdG only works if all four premises are true, and the last one is shaky at best.
if pinned counted as 'bound' (which is not a condition) and therefore counted as helpless, then why would pinned create a -4 AC penalty, when helpless are at dex 0?
Pinned and Helpless are very different conditions.
Now, I'm not saying the GM couldn't apply the helpless condition if it was warranted, like sufficiently tied to a sacrificial alter, for instance - but that is not what the 'rules' for pinned or tied up are representing, and not something you are going to be able to do in a round or two of combat while the victim is fighting back. By the rules, all 'tied up' means is the character is pinned by the ropes, instead of by a grappler. They could still try to escape.
Yeah, bound is not a specific condition and sounds like it covers a wide range of restricted movement.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy
I'm not pulling rules out of my bum here. These are pulled from the exact texts.
Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.
Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.
If you have to have an effect specifically call out it applies the 'helpless' condition, then going to sleep at night does not make you helpless.
The only reason it gets applied is because the helpless condition calls out 'sleeping' as one of it's triggers.
Think of it as an always-running status checker. Is the character triggering any of the requirements for helpless? If so, then the character is helpless.
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There is no rules definition of 'bound', so you cannot definitively claim that the use of the word in the pinned condition qualifies as equal to the use in the helpless condition. It is certainly reasonable to rule that way, but causes contradictions within the rules. Since there is no bound condition, you cannot check the status of such.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.
Pinned condition.
Looking for "bound" condition. You know, exact text not rules pulled out of someone's bum.
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Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.
So if that's true, then the first level spell Animate Rope allows you to CdG someone in one round?
"A creature capable of spellcasting that is bound by this spell must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell’s level to cast a spell."
So I can cast a Quickened Animate Rope as a Swift Action, then perform the CdG as a Full-Round Action in the *same* round? Sweet! I hope your Touch AC is good...
Or *not* !
Regardless of what combination of five letters you're looking at, all of the other conditions listed under helpless have the same restriction:
Paralyzed : You cannot take *any* physical actions.
Held : You cannot take *any* physical actions.
Sleeping : You cannot take *any* physical actions.
Unconscious : You cannot take *any* physical actions.
Pinned : You can make Grapple or Escape Artist checks to break free and can cast verbal only spells. These are both physical actions.
Whatever "bound" was intended to mean, Pinned is *not* the same thing. You are very restricted in what physical actions you may take, but you still have that option.
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Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.
Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.
Truck = Vehicle.
Vehicle = Car.
Car =/= Truck
Sorry, that form of logic doesn't really work.
Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.
Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.
Truck = Vehicle.
Vehicle = Car.
Car =/= Truck
Sorry, that form of logic doesn't really work.
You've given an instance where the commutative logic breaks.
I argue that I haven't.
Either way a FAQ would be greatly appreciated.
It just doesn't follow that the helpless condition would list 'bound' as a trigger if actually being bound doesn't make you helpless.
It would be 100% clearer if the word 'bound' was either absent from the helpless condition or if 'bound' was it's own separate condition rather than a meta condition created by the wording of other rules.
It's the same for sleeping.
As far as I can tell, actually laying down and just going to sleep isn't listed anywhere but it's definitely referenced.
The only thing that mentions it is the spell 'sleep' and that could easily be said to be referring the magical sleep being applied through that spell, as it's rules are all in the context of that spell. If they wanted to say 'sleeping makes you helpless', why not put that in the conditions section under a new condition: 'sleeping'.
Did the dev team think the wording of the helpless condition was clear enough?
Sleep and bound are these 'meta' conditions not actually laid out in the conditions section of the PRD but are referenced by other effects.
This might seem super silly for me to be having an issue over the the terms of sleeping but it doesn't make any sense to have such a huge general rule (sleeping = helpless) tucked away into a spell description that most people might not even find unless they were looking to play an arcane caster.
My issue is while Read as Written does not explicitly say it gives helpless, it very clearly does so indirectly. I think otherwise the first sentence of helpless is confusing and needs to be stricken from the condition entirely.
As I said earlier I lean more on the fence that RAI is 'no you can't CDG from pinned' but I also think it's RAI that you can CDG someone tied up by rope. PFS seems to think so if their website is anything to go on. On inspecting the wordings further, it appears pinned and caught in rope is the same thing mechanically. This is where my hangup is.
Well, that wasn't what you quoted. Please be more specific next time.
Was it not?
You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
Cause it kind of seems like it was...
Did I not link the text you quoted?
One of us is clearly not understanding the other.
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I find that to be 90% of forum posts.Did I not link the text you quoted?One of us is clearly not understanding the other.
And half the fun!
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Grappled: -4 Dexterity
Pinned: Denied Dexterity (not even flatfooted, just denied dexterity)
Tied Up: Helpless (Dexterity of 0)
Pretty simple.
Did I not link the text you quoted?
The referenced text was
"PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions."
The second line is in the book. The first line isn't.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
held = past tense of Hold, such as from the Hold Person, Hold Monster
bound = past tense of bind, such as from Dominate Person, Dominate Monster
The Binding spell is also a good example.
Grappled and Pinned conditions are not at the opponent's mercy because it clearly states in both of their descriptions that the target can take action.
That's why Paizo made the Witch Variant Multiclass, so you can slap Slumber on to any class you want. Coup de Grace! Dead, dead, dead...
Grappled: -4 Dexterity
Pinned: Denied Dexterity (not even flatfooted, just denied dexterity)
Tied Up: Helpless (Dexterity of 0)Pretty simple.
Except that all being tied up in pathfinder does, mechanically, is maintain the pinned condition without a grappler.
not really what I would deem 'FAQ Candidate'. The helpless condition is what is required to coup de grace (in fact, the helpless condition is where the coup de grace rule is actually sourced). That part of the rule isn't really ambiguous. That said, a GM can apply any condition to any creature at any time, as he feels necessary. That ability of the GM is essentially RAW.
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Dastardly Finish will allow you to deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned creature.
Oh, and if we are looking for "bound", it's right on the PRD:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
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Here is the link to the above quote.
You will also find the Helpless Condition there too:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
So, both conditions use the same word to describe the itself.
I don't see why "bound" needs to be a separate Condition to explain how these two Conditions interact and compare.